Transpennine woes and a moan...

[northernchris]

Yesterday was beyond poor on the north route. Successive trains cancelled, solo 185s in use and the usual lack of crowd control were creating some unpleasant conditions. When I passed through Leeds around 7pm, the next 4 TPE services were cancelled.

The thing is, its not like there are shortages of crew as besides those booked to work there were 5 conductors booking on spare at Newcastle between 04:00 and 07:00 - there would have been 6 but I took a lieu day - and there were spare drivers too. There was however an uncovered newcastle conductor shift later in the day which none of the early spares could cover due to rostering hours limitations.

Could yesterday's problems have been compounded by the diversion on the Calder Valley, with route knowledge being an issue?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Yeah, post updated since you quoted. Newcastle crews were learning calder valley last year but allegedly another depot - manchester airport i think - complained newcastle was taking work off them and it was halted as a result

I cannot accept this as truth however as I am fully aware what the railway is like for gossip

 

[northernchris]

The thing is, its not like there are shortages of crew as besides those booked to work there were 5 conductors booking on spare at Newcastle between 04:00 and 07:00 - there would have been 6 but I took a lieu day - and there were spare drivers too. none of us no longer sign anywhere beyond Huddersfield and dont sign Calder Valler diversion either which means we cannot cross cover Liverpool any more and this is an area where our flexibility has been lost. There was however an uncovered newcastle conductor shift later in the day which none of the early spares could cover due to rostering hours limitations although a York conductor covered that job he still found the service was cancelled anyway

I'm surprised Newcastle don't sign to Manchester Victoria!

Its fair to say front line staff are thoroughly fed up of seeing such a poor service operating

I've noticed how demoralised a lot of the onboard staff are recently, it's really sad to see. Hopefully things will start to improve soon as more crew pass training, as it's really not fair on the staff, the passengers and staff from other operators who are having to deal with the current mess.

 

[Novern Uproar]

TPE are rapidly becoming not fit for purpose and the front line staff having to put up with this must be really demoralised. I've had friends taking kids to Scarborough and Cleethorpes recently. Arrived at both destinations ok, but coming back was a nightmare with the short notice cancellations. I travel into Leeds and York frequently and its no longer a surprise when I look up at the information boards to see what services are not running.
On the bright side TPE are running tv adverts proclaiming how wonderful they are and how we can look forward to electric trains across the Pennines between 2036 and 2041 !

 

[yorksrob]

I had pleasant journeys between Leeds and Manchester yesterday, both ways on Northern.

Think I saw one diverted TPE on the calder valley in that time.

 

[Killingworth]

I know someone who took their grandson to Cleethorpes last month, 3 trains back in a row were cancelled that afternoon (think his daughter eventually picked them up).

Was in Sheffield yesterday morning & noticed the 09:10 Manchester train was cancelled, ticket acceptance on the Hope Valley stopper, which was a 3-car 195; I've not been as often as I used to, but that would've been cosy if passenger numbers were anything like they used to be. They managed a single 185 an hour later, which might've been interesting; the last time I went on this pre-covid it was nearly full by the time it reached Doncaster, and when it reached Sheffield P6 was rammed to the point where it was a struggle to get off, with a detour round P8 needed to get to the stairs. The only time I've done it this year was in January, where 2 x 185's were on, as I was sat at the back I got a seat and also missed any crowd at Sheffield.

Loadings on all 3 TOCs through the Hope Valley vary enormously at present thanks to the varied issues at all 3. Today Northern are only operating 2 in 3 of their normally timetabled trains, a pair of 150s and a 2+3 car 195 combination. (It was only in June they were putting on 6 cars for almost all.) EMR seem to be managing hourly 4 car 158s with one 3 car 170. TPE have 6 services supposed to be running in each direction, all 6 car. Their normal timetable includes 15 services so a lot missing.

195s soak up a lot of standees and are currently being used by airport travellers with those massive bags now so favoured. There is great reluctance to use the the capacious overhead storage space for anything, the next seat proving far more popular!

TPE's troubles are not just putting people off using their services, but the knock on effects are putting people off from using all trains.

 

[Fokx]

Because the Saturday service is half hourly.

Not everyone using the train is a local

Regardless there’s 2 buses an hour to/from Stalybridge to either Manchester terminal station, the majority of which are locals or those who work locally because Stalybridge isn’t exactly a tourist must-see

Could yesterday's problems have been compounded by the diversion on the Calder Valley, with route knowledge being an issue?

It’s exactly that.

The other problem was that the Hull to Huddersfield shuttles were routes to platform 1 and 8 at Huddersfield and not 4.

The result was that the trains were routed to/from the Marsden turn back which most drivers do not sign, and therefore resulted in cancellations of Hull services

 

[Solent&Wessex]

The result was that the trains were routed to/from the Marsden turn back which most drivers do not sign, and therefore resulted in cancellations of Hull services

Piffle.

How can a driver that signs the route between Huddersfield and Manchester via Marsden, which all drivers on the Hull services will do, not sign the turn back?

You can only turn back two ways. Stop in either of the Manchester bound platforms, change ends, and drive back again via the crossover. There is nothing extra to sign.

 

[Fokx]

Piffle.

How can a driver that signs the route between Huddersfield and Manchester via Marsden, which all drivers on the Hull services will do, not sign the turn back?

You can only turn back two ways. Stop in either of the Manchester bound platforms, change ends, and drive back again via the crossover. There is nothing extra to sign.

Because you still have to know stopping positions, reversing point and signal sightings in said loop

The same way that South route crews used to sign Piccadilly main shed but not 13/14.

 

[George1066]

Because you still have to know stopping positions, reversing point and signal sightings in said loop

The same way that South route crews used to sign Piccadilly main shed but not 13/14.

Its called route knowledge! and comparing Marsden too Man picc is a bit of a stretch.

 

[Fokx]

Its called route knowledge!.

and it’s the biggest issue the company is facing traincrew side, alongside no RDW

With route knowledge you either use it or lose it, and many of us are losing it

 

[DanNCL]

Stalybridge is well serviced by service buses such as the 219 which passengers usually use during disruption, passengers from Ashton either use the tram or the 216/219 to/from Manchester

So your argument is because there's the 216/219 buses TPE don't need to make an effort. No doubt you'll use the same argument with the 21/X21 buses for Chester-le-Street.

And then some wonder why people are giving up on the railway...

The thing is, its not like there are shortages of crew as besides those booked to work there were 5 conductors booking on spare at Newcastle between 04:00 and 07:00 - there would have been 6 but I took a lieu day - and there were spare drivers too. none of us no longer sign anywhere beyond Huddersfield and dont sign Calder Valler diversion either which means we cannot cross cover Liverpool any more and this is an area where our flexibility has been lost. There was however an uncovered newcastle conductor shift later in the day which none of the early spares could cover due to rostering hours limitations although a York conductor covered that job he still found the service was cancelled anyway

What I struggle to understand is that if both crew and units were available why TPE didn't run Newcastle - York shuttles. All good and well them advertising ticket acceptance with XC but it isn't much use for those who have to use Chester-le-Street.

From my own enquiries I understand that TPE did not request any other TOC to put in SSOs at Chester-le-Street yesterday. Trying to get alternative transport arranged via Twitter (which is what I usually have to do when they cancell trains at Chester-le-Street) got nowhere - at first they claimed the cancellations were because the line was closed, it was only when I pointed out to them that Chester-le-Street isn't anywhere near Stalybridge that they changed their story to the usual 'short notice change to the timetable' message. Their twitter team also tried saying it was LNER's responsibility to arrange taxis for TPE's cancelled trains! There can be no doubt that TPE breached their obligations regarding providing transport to/from Chester-le-Street yesterday.

following the 07:43 off Newcastle the next departure from Newcastle that ran was 14:47. Thats 6 hours and 6 service diagrams out of 8 not operating any part of the service at all. Totally unacceptable that none of the trains ran between those two departures which would have reduced the remaining service across the pennines to one 6 car car 185 per hour, and that even operated as some 3 vice 6 diagrams. Its fair to say front line staff are thoroughly fed up of seeing such a poor service operating

TPE are frankly lucky to have any staff left by the sound of things! I feel sorry for all the front line staff who have to deal with all the angry passengers.

The result was that the trains were routed to/from the Marsden turn back which most drivers do not sign, and therefore resulted in cancellations of Hull services

Because you still have to know stopping positions, reversing point and signal sightings in said loop

The same way that South route crews used to sign Piccadilly main shed but not 13/14.

How ridiculous. The Marsden turnback isn't remotely comparable to Piccadilly. If Newcastle based LNER crews can sign P6 and P7 at York without having any booked work to them, TPE crews should be able to sign the turnback at Marsden without having booked work there.

 

[Fokx]

How ridiculous. The Marsden turnback isn't remotely comparable to Piccadilly. If Newcastle based LNER crews can sign P6 and P7 at York without having any booked work to them, TPE crews should be able to sign the turnback at Marsden without having booked work there.

The difference is the reserving shunt, not the fact it’s a piece of unused track by booked services.

So your argument is because there's the 216/219 buses TPE don't need to make an effort. No doubt you'll use the same argument with the 21/X21 buses for Chester-le-Street.

And then some wonder why people are giving up on the railway...

No but put things into perspective.

The number of passengers who board at Stalybridge is regularly less than the capacity of a coach which usually have between 47-53 seats.

A number of passengers who use the train for its quicker convenience will use the local bus (219) instead of the rail replacement as it takes the same amount of time and is cheaper than the cost of a day return. You could also factor things such as the bus passing the passengers houses direct as apposed to the walk to the station.

You then also need to factor that passengers intending to board a Piccadilly service, may turn up and board the first bus that comes, and instead use the northern services to/from Victoria and not use the TPE bus to Piccadilly.

My arguement is that passenger numbers at Stalybridge are more than serviced by 2 buses per hour towards Manchester. TPE are also well aware of this, and it’s not the first time rail buses have been used between the two stations.

 

[LowLevel]

The difference is the reserving shunt, not the fact it’s a piece of unused track by booked services.

Is the problem reversing a 3 car set in the loop at Marsden? If it was a 6 and there was some issues about moving from set to set I could understand, but if it's just driving a 3 car behind the peg in the loop platform that's nuts.

 

[Atishyou]

Because you still have to know stopping positions, reversing point and signal sightings in said loop

The same way that South route crews used to sign Piccadilly main shed but not 13/14.

You sign the route, not the moves, otherwise nobody would sign anywhere.

 

[Urobach]

If you sign Marsden you sign the loop, we regularly did the turn back when running 6 car Leeds/Huddersfield stoppers during the Covid era

 

[gimmea50anyday]

I've noticed how demoralised a lot of the onboard staff are recently, it's really sad to see. .

TPE are rapidly becoming not fit for purpose and the front line staff having to put up with this must be really demoralised.

TPE are frankly lucky to have any staff left by the sound of things! I feel sorry for all the front line staff who have to deal with all the angry passengers.

we are, demoralised would be an understatement. And from our end it doesnt look or feel like Golton, O’Brien et al either don't see it or simply don’t care. I keep hearing the words “shareholder value” “cost to the business” and “accountable to customers“ bandied around yet I do not see how numerous cancellations, short forms and even unconnectable split paths takes the customers in to account. Lets face it, if the people at the top dont care, that filters down and through to the people at the bottom….

You sign the route, not the moves, otherwise nobody would sign anywhere.

For drivers signing the route includes understanding the track and signalling layouts. Of course the driver would come to a clear understanding with the signaller for any out of course or unusual movements and utilise the conductor as an additional pair of eyes if necessary and available.
the Marsden turnaround is often utilised by huddersfield terminators needing a turnback where station capacity is an issue, as pointed out above. platform accommodation is limited (3x 142 iirc) but thats usually not an issue as the train is ECS anyway

I'm surprised Newcastle don't sign to Manchester Victoria!

we used to, however the planning director seems to think its cheaper and more efficient to diagram crews the way TPE currently do with the short hops and numerous crew changes. As a result Liverpool dont operate beyond York and Newcastle operate beyond Huddersfield…

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Because you still have to know stopping positions, reversing point and signal sightings in said loop

The same way that South route crews used to sign Piccadilly main shed but not 13/14.

Nonsense.

Piccadilly is entirely different to Marsden.

The loop has no booked passenger work, but anything can go that way if it needs to.

You sign the route you sign the route and all stations and platforms on it - even ones you don't normally stop at.

You don't sign each platform individually if they are on the same lines.

Trains can, and do, get Stop Orders for all sorts of random places. Rochdale on a TPE once springs to mind. The driver can't refuse the SSO because "I don't sign the platform".

You sign the route, not the moves, otherwise nobody would sign anywhere.

Exactly.

 

[irish_rail]

we used to, however the planning director seems to think its cheaper and more efficient to diagram crews the way TPE currently do with the short hops and numerous crew changes. As a result Liverpool dont operate beyond York and Newcastle operate beyond HudHuddersfield

A completely ridiculous state of affairs. It doesn't take a genius to realise one crew member working one trip is far more resilient than several crew members working very short trips.

On GWR, at depots like Plymouth and Exeter, we frequently are able to keep the service running due to extensive route cards (ie all the way from Penzance to London) and frequently get GWR out of the sh*t when the service is faltering. And yet it seems First group would like to prune our route knowledge right back (at Plymouth we have already lost Taunton to Bristol).

Its simple really, a large route card equals a resilient punctual and efficient service for the customer, if only some in First group would realise that (thankfully a fair few do now).

 

[johntea]

The crew changes also annoy passengers in terms of having to potentially show their ticket for inspection 2/3/4/ times during a single trip! (not the fault of the crew as they have no prior knowledge of who boarded where obviously)

 

[gimmea50anyday]

A completely ridiculous state of affairs. It doesn't take a genius to realise one crew member working one trip is far more resilient than several crew members working very short trips.

Its simple really, a large route card equals a resilient punctual and efficient service for the customer, if only some in First group would realise that (thankfully a fair few do now).

EXACTLY!!!

Where is the “like” button?….

 

[sportzbar]

No but put things into perspective.

The number of passengers who board at Stalybridge is regularly less than the capacity of a coach which usually have between 47-53 seats.

A number of passengers who use the train for its quicker convenience will use the local bus (219) instead of the rail replacement as it takes the same amount of time and is cheaper than the cost of a day return. You could also factor things such as the bus passing the passengers houses direct as apposed to the walk to the station.

You then also need to factor that passengers intending to board a Piccadilly service, may turn up and board the first bus that comes, and instead use the northern services to/from Victoria and not use the TPE bus to Piccadilly.

My arguement is that passenger numbers at Stalybridge are more than serviced by 2 buses per hour towards Manchester. TPE are also well aware of this, and it’s not the first time rail buses have been used between the two stations.

But the problem with the 219 bus route is that from Stalybridge there are a grand total of six (yes six) departures a day to Manchester, with all other departures (every ten mins) starting from Ashton. So therefore anyone wanting to use the bus either has to use one of these six buses or use another bus just to get to Ashton in the first place.....

 

[DanNCL]

On GWR, at depots like Plymouth and Exeter, we frequently are able to keep the service running due to extensive route cards (ie all the way from Penzance to London) and frequently get GWR out of the sh*t when the service is faltering. And yet it seems First group would like to prune our route knowledge right back (at Plymouth we have already lost Taunton to Bristol).

Same happens with LNER at Newcastle who sign from London through to Edinburgh (some drivers sign to Aberdeen and Inverness), and XC TMs at Birmingham some of whom sign from both Plymouth and Bournemouth through to Newcastle.

 

[irish_rail]

Same happens with LNER at Newcastle who sign from London through to Edinburgh (some drivers sign to Aberdeen and Inverness), and XC TMs at Birmingham some of whom sign from both Plymouth and Bournemouth through to Newcastle.

Similarly avanti at Preston who i think sign the whole WCML. These types of depots should be massive assets to TOCs and they should be looking to replicate more of this, not the each depot only allowed to sign 50 miles of route nonsense!

 

[SuperNova]

Because the Saturday service is half hourly.

Not everyone using the train is a local.

I suspect those who've planned these have a lot more data and information in regards to this. And running a bus service doesn't mean it matches service patterns or timetables.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

I don't know how recent the announcement was, but TPE is cutting back the services on the WCML route from 12 September (until further notice).
Several full and part-cancellations, with some RRBs and extra Avanti stops to partially compensate.
It looks similar to an Avanti situation where they can't reliably operate the timetable.

Timetables | Download timetables | TransPennine Express

View timetables for all TransPennine Express services and stations on the network. Download train timetables now.

www.tpexpress.co.uk

An amended timetable will be in place from Monday 12 September until further notice for TransPennine Express services between Manchester/Liverpool and Edinburgh/Glasgow via Preston and Carlisle.
The changes are being made to provide a more stable and reliable service following recent disruption caused by a range of issues including sustained high levels of sickness and a training backlog as a direct result of Covid. Combined, these factors have seen a number of on-the-day or ‘evening before’ cancellations being made. Such cancellations are expected to be significantly reduced under this temporary amended timetable.

 

[CAF397]

At least they seem to have dropped the 'industrial action' reason from the list of factors.

 

[mike57]

I don't know how recent the announcement was, but TPE is cutting back the services on the WCML route from 12 September (until further notice).

There have also been ongoing cancellations on TPE North, mainly to Hull, I assume these will continue on an ad-hoc basis, as there are no 'new' timetables.

Looking at the route I use, York - Manchester there are currently 2tph through the day, with a few extras at the peaks. Some Redcar - Airport services appear to be still running as 3 car services, so this gives 8 carriages per hour some hours, little better capacity than the early 80s when it was 1tph with a 47+6 or 7.

Journey time also hasnt improved much either, current post covid time is about 2h 10m York - Liverpool, Back in 1982 it was about 2h 20m.

 

[SuperNova]

There have also been ongoing cancellations on TPE North, mainly to Hull, I assume these will continue on an ad-hoc basis, as there are no 'new' timetables.

Looking at the route I use, York - Manchester there are currently 2tph through the day, with a few extras at the peaks. Some Redcar - Airport services appear to be still running as 3 car services, so this gives 8 carriages per hour some hours, little better capacity than the early 80s when it was 1tph with a 47+6 or 7.

Journey time also hasnt improved much either, current post covid time is about 2h 10m York - Liverpool, Back in 1982 it was about 2h 20m.

Seat capacity is actually very similar to 2017 right now despite 2tph. There were 724 seats per hour between York-Manchester then, now if its an 802 and double 185 its 704 seats per hour.

 

[Some guy]

Similarly avanti at Preston who i think sign the whole WCML. These types of depots should be massive assets to TOCs and they should be looking to replicate more of this, not the each depot only allowed to sign 50 miles of route nonsense!

It’s the exact same for TPE at Preston they sign all the way from Manchester to Glasgow/Edinburgh yet they still do about 2 different crew changes at Preston and Carlisle meaning if the 2nd driver or conductor isn’t there it has to be terminated short a lot of the time