Transpennine woes and a moan...

[skyhigh]

That's aside from the fact that most drivers aren't trained on coupling or uncoupling the units

Seriously?

Drivers sign the units but not coupling them?

 

[43066]

Seriously?

Drivers sign the units but not coupling them?

If they’re never used in multiple quite likely. GTR (TL) are the same and possibly London Overground.

 

[Watershed]

Seriously?

Drivers sign the units but not coupling them?

I believe it was intended as a way of shortening the training. With double sets essentially only being feasible between York and Edinburgh (and ECSs to/from Doncaster depot) it's not as crazy as it might first sound. However, it's rather more problematic that not all York drivers - and no Newcastle drivers - can do attach/detaches...

 

[Frankfurt]

I believe it was intended as a way of shortening the training. With double sets essentially only being feasible between York and Edinburgh (and ECSs to/from Doncaster depot) it's not as crazy as it might first sound. However, it's rather more problematic that not all York drivers - and no Newcastle drivers - can do attach/detaches...

Alot of York and all of Newcastle depot have completed coupling/un coupling training. Many drivers haven't actually done any since their initial training though, so some have asked for refreshers, all depends on the individual.

 

[Watershed]

Alot of York and all of Newcastle depot have completed coupling/un coupling training. Many drivers haven't actually done any since their initial training though, so some have asked for refreshers, all depends on the individual.

Well that's certainly a positive development since the last time I heard about it.

 

[Johnny Lewis]

I genuinely thought Manchester Victoria and Huddersfield would be long enough. The regularly used platforms at Leeds (15 & 16) are definitely long enough. York and all stations north thereof are served frequently enough by 10 car Azuma formations. Perhaps not quite such a "non-starter".

 

[Getbacktowork]

Another disgraceful showing on 16 October by virtue of the planned cancellations which filtered through today.

My personal view is that when tickets are purchased in good faith and mass cancellations mean the planned journey is impossible, the TOC is liable for breach of contract and should seek to ensure that passengers can make their journey via other means. This happens regularly for last minute cancellations, but TPE believe they are exempt if services are cancelled a few days prior.

TPE are quick to jump on passengers and threaten prosecution in more minor circumstances, ie travelling first on a standard ticket.

TPE have a week to sort taxis for those impacted by their incompetence, yet deliberately choose not to, forcing passengers to arrange at their own expense.

 

[Watershed]

The regularly used platforms at Leeds (15 & 16) are definitely long enough.

No, not quite. They are 221 and 218m respectively. A 10 car 802 is 260m long.

York and all stations north thereof are served frequently enough by 10 car Azuma formations. Perhaps not quite such a "non-starter".

Well of course - if TPE 802s just operated York to Newcastle or Edinburgh services it would probably be within the realms of the feasible. But that's not the case!

 

[43066]

TPE have a week to sort taxis for those impacted by their incompetence, yet deliberately choose not to, forcing passengers to arrange at their own expense.

If they need to order tens of thousands of taxis, having a week’s notice won’t help. The reality is it simply isn’t practical or realistic to expect TOCs to do this.

If people have a few days’ notice they can make other arrangements, which is much more helpful to the public than the TOC carrying on regardless and then cancelling trains last minute anyway, or having thousands stranded due to being unable to use hopelessly overwhelmed alternative arrangements that can be cobbled together.

 

[Getbacktowork]

If they need to order tens of thousands of taxis, having a week’s notice won’t help. The reality is it simply isn’t practical or realistic to expect TOCs to do this.

If people have a few days notice they can make other arrangements, which is much more sensible and practical than cancelling trains last minute.

I completely disagree. Many taxis firms are overjoyed by large corporate contracts which ensure their drivers are busy all day. Minibuses and coaches are also options.

But to humour you, do you believe that if a passenger makes their own arrangements, they should be reimbursed? They are not currently. I am lucky enought to be in a position to cover such journeys. Many are not, especially in a cost of living crisis.

You seem to be in favour of TPE taking bookings then absolving themselves of all responsibility. Additionally irrespective of whether someone has booked in advance or intends to travel on the day, it is still unreasonable for someone not to be able to travel, or use a long distance taxi from their own pocket.

Exactly what other arrangements do you expect people to make? Stay at home instead?

At least if trains are cancelled last minute, passengers are eligible for taxis, hotels, delay repay etc

 

[43066]

I completely disagree. Many taxis firms are overjoyed by large corporate contracts which ensure their drivers are busy all day.

You disagree with what? That it’s not physically impossible to organise this many taxis?! One of the largest U.K. operators Addison Lee has 5000 taxis total, in central London. How exactly are TPE going to order several times this number in their much more sparsely populated region?

Surely that’s so obvious that it doesn’t need pointing out?

But to humour you, do you believe that if a passenger makes their own arrangements, they should be reimbursed? They are not currently. I am lucky enought to be in a position to cover such journeys. Many are not, especially in a cost of living crisis.

Their tickets should be refunded, yes. I don’t think TOCs (really meaning the government) should necessarily be expected to fund alternatives, especially when many of the tickets purchased will be low cost advances and the alternatives used may be many times more expensive.

You seem to be in favour of TPE takeling bookings then absolving themselves of all responsibility. Additionally irrespective of whether someone has booked in advance or intends to travel on the day, it is still unreasonable for someone not to be able to travel, or use a long distance taxi from their own pocket.

Beyond giving a refund, reasonable ticket acceptance or allowing travel another day, absolutely - it’s the only practical solution. I’m afraid ranting on here and making impractical demands won’t change that.

 

[Getbacktowork]

You disagree with what? That it’s not physically impossible to organise this many taxis?! One of the largest U.K. operators Addison Lee has 5000 taxis total, in central London. How exactly are TPE going to order several times this number in their much more sparsely populated region?

Surely that’s so obvious that it doesn’t need pointing out?



Their tickets should be refunded, yes. I don’t think TOCs (really meaning the government) should necessarily be expected to fund alternatives, especially when many of the tickets purchased will be low cost advances and the alternatives used may be many times more expensive.



Beyond giving a refund, reasonable ticket acceptance or allowing travel another day, absolutely - it’s the only practical solution. I’m afraid ranting on here and making impractical demands won’t change

I am sorry if my post comes across as a rant. I am merely trying to help, to quote your figures, the tens of thousands impacted upon a weekly basis.

Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered and the status quo can be maintained.

 

[43066]

I am sorry if my post comes across as a rant. I am merely trying to help, to quote your figures, the tens of thousands impacted upon a weekly basis.

Perhaps I shouldn't have bothered and the status quo can be maintained.

To be fair I can understand the frustration, and it’s entirely appropriate to expect taxis to be provided for last trains cancellations etc. to prevent people being stranded.

On days where the entire network is substantially reduced or shut entirely due to weather conditions/industrial action or whatever, it’s simply impractical for alternatives to be provided. Much better (and more helpful!) to manage expectations and give as much notice as possible.

EDIT: I was caught by this myself today. There was no service through the TL core due to industrial action, but no ticket acceptance on LU as there usually would be so I had to tap in. Obviously I realise this is nowhere near the same scale as many TPE journeys, but irritating nonetheless!

 

[7522]

Already 61 trains cancelled for tomorrow. Worst I've seen on journeycheck so far. Liverpool to Newcastle route was at least usable over the summer (even though there were a few trains cancelled) but seems to be getting much worse with so many cancelled that the remaining trains are overcrowded.

 

[Getbacktowork]

Already 61 trains cancelled for tomorrow. Worst I've seen on journeycheck so far. Liverpool to Newcastle route was at least usable over the summer (even though there were a few trains cancelled) but seems to be getting much worse with so many cancelled that the remaining trains are overcrowded.

At risk of being accused of another rant. Is there nothing that we as rail enthusiasts and regular users can do to try and get a better deal for passengers?

It doesn't appear fair and reasonable that TPE cancel what they like with no fall back.

 

[Clarence Yard]

Practically nothing.

TPE and the other DfT TOCs are effectively DfT controlled with the private sector management carrying out their orders. The DfT have been largely in control of the TOC budgets, resource plans and timetable since March 2020.

The only way to put any pressure on is by your MP getting on the ministers case by telling her that her department isn’t doing it’s job and not allowing TPE the resources to rectify the situation sooner.

 

[Killingworth]

Practically nothing.

TPE and the other DfT TOCs are effectively DfT controlled with the private sector management carrying out their orders. The DfT have been largely in control of the TOC budgets, resource plans and timetable since March 2020.

The only way to put any pressure on is by your MP getting on the ministers case by telling her that her department isn’t doing it’s job and not allowing TPE the resources to rectify the situation sooner.

And Avanti West Coast's case, and all the rest to lesser degrees as the dominoes lie. History, politics, money, engineering and technology combine to make all but insurmountable challenges for a reliable modern British railway!

 

[VauxhallNova]

Who is responsible for aligning timetable plans with traincrew resources?

 

[Killingworth]

This morning we were in Sheffield just before 9 and noted a 6 coach TPE in the centre road warmed up and ready to go.

Platform announcement advised TPE trains to Manchester and Cleethorpes both cancelled. Advsed to use 2 car Northern for Manchester or similar for Adwick.

I see the 185 picked up the Cleethorpes service from Meadowhall.

 

[Ianigsy]

Looks as if I picked a good day to go from Leeds to Birkenhead....no through Liverpool Liverpool service between 1215 and 1715. To add insult to injury, the 1415 is cancelled due to a fault, which doesn't look great when there are presumably quite a few 802s standing idle!

 

[43066]

If trains are cancelled the previous night before 10pm they are classed as pre-planned and therefore do not count on the performance stats and the company still gets paid by the DfT. Theres no incentive for the company to resolve the dispute meanwhile the DfT keeps bankrolling it.

Thanks for this very detailed and insightful post on the picture at TPE more generally. In relation to the bit quoted above, this perfectly explains why several TOCs seem to be engaging in the practice of cancellations by “timetable of the day”. Awful for the passengers (and the staff who take the brunt of the frustration) but if the TOCs still get paid they will have no interest in either.

At risk of being accused of another rant. Is there nothing that we as rail enthusiasts and regular users can do to try and get a better deal for passengers?

It doesn't appear fair and reasonable that TPE cancel what they like with no fall back.

This clearly isn’t a rant and is more than justified, to be fair! It’s clearly a shocking situation for everyone concerned.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

I note that there was talk a few weeks back about short platforms and inconsistencies in these being announced...
Yesterday I caught the 10:11 TPE from Batley travelling to Huddersfield. Unusually, this was a 6-car set as the two Stoppers had been merged at Huddersfield and extended to/from York. At Batley where the Next Train screens are operated by Northern, there were notes about short platforms telling passengers where to board for each station.
On the return from Huddersfield, the screens operated by TPE had no warnings about short platforms for their own service, luckily I'm familiar enough with Batley to know I needed to be in the front 4 so made sure I was on the front unit.

People still sneer at Northern as if they are still running pacers everywhere, but even at their worst in the Serco days the quality of customer service and communication knocks TPE of 2022 into a cocked hat.

 

[mike57]

The whole TPE saga has reached a point where I dread the days when I have to travel to the NW. Random cancellations mean that planning the day is nearly impossible, and will probably result in a late arrival back home. Staff who are very obviously demoralised in a lot of cases. Poor communication, short formed overcrowded services. Compare this with my Sheffield or Derby days, not as frequent but only one delay repay claim this year. TPE delay repay claims are also a nightmare, they regularly reject claims where they are the cause of delay, I am currently in dispute with them over a claim where I was left waiting at York for a non existent service, and in their refusual they had the cheek to blame Northern, Northern dont currently run York - Scarborough so whoever is processing them either needs training or sacking.

I have managed to reduce the visits to the NW from 1 per week to 1 per fortnight, but its still misery. As for using TPE for lesiure journeys, we dont any use them any longer, I would rather go the slower route of Northern/Hull Trains/LNER to London and beyond than enter the TPE 'Is it going to turn up' lottery. The last thing you need on a long journey is a major uncertainty. Our last trip from which we have just returned was Northern, Hull Trains, Eurostar, SNCF and return and everything turned up on time or close enough not to be a worry both ways.

As for the 22.00 cut off the previous day for cancellations, that is totally unreasonable, these are business journeys, the lastest I can replan a day is probably 16:00, and thats a pain, and with a 05:40 start from Seamer that means a 05:10 leave home, so I dont want to be frantically trying to contact colleagues at 22:00, and they will probably be in bed/in the pub/otherwise engaged at that time.

Unless TPE get their act together there will be no need for even the current level of service, people will find alternatives, or just not make the journey. And to those who say 'Ah but its the DfT' a lot of the issues are internal TPE issues, and nothing to do with the DfT. At least then they could go back to the DfT and heads held high, and discuss the other issues.

Final thought: I wonder if an express York - Leeds - Manchester coach service with no intermediate stops could be run profitably, using decent quality coaches with decent seating, and what the journey time would be like. I would happily pay a fare similar to the standard class rail fare for a reliable journey, yes rail should be the optimum solution for this journey, but with no resolution in sight is it an oppertunity?

 

[mpthomson]

The whole TPE saga has reached a point where I dread the days when I have to travel to the NW. Random cancellations mean that planning the day is nearly impossible, and will probably result in a late arrival back home. Staff who are very obviously demoralised in a lot of cases. Poor communication, short formed overcrowded services. Compare this with my Sheffield or Derby days, not as frequent but only one delay repay claim this year. TPE delay repay claims are also a nightmare, they regularly reject claims where they are the cause of delay, I am currently in dispute with them over a claim where I was left waiting at York for a non existent service, and in their refusual they had the cheek to blame Northern, Northern dont currently run York - Scarborough so whoever is processing them either needs training or sacking.

I have managed to reduce the visits to the NW from 1 per week to 1 per fortnight, but its still misery. As for using TPE for lesiure journeys, we dont any use them any longer, I would rather go the slower route of Northern/Hull Trains/LNER to London and beyond than enter the TPE 'Is it going to turn up' lottery. The last thing you need on a long journey is a major uncertainty. Our last trip from which we have just returned was Northern, Hull Trains, Eurostar, SNCF and return and everything turned up on time or close enough not to be a worry both ways.

As for the 22.00 cut off the previous day for cancellations, that is totally unreasonable, these are business journeys, the lastest I can replan a day is probably 16:00, and thats a pain, and with a 05:40 start from Seamer that means a 05:10 leave home, so I dont want to be frantically trying to contact colleagues at 22:00, and they will probably be in bed/in the pub/otherwise engaged at that time.

Unless TPE get their act together there will be no need for even the current level of service, people will find alternatives, or just not make the journey. And to those who say 'Ah but its the DfT' a lot of the issues are internal TPE issues, and nothing to do with the DfT. At least then they could go back to the DfT and heads held high, and discuss the other issues.

Final thought: I wonder if an express York - Leeds - Manchester coach service with no intermediate stops could be run profitably, using decent quality coaches with decent seating, and what the journey time would be like. I would happily pay a fare similar to the standard class rail fare for a reliable journey, yes rail should be the optimum solution for this journey, but with no resolution in sight is it an oppertunity?

Interesting to note that even with the current TPE chaos, the non stop fast City Zap bus service that operates between York and Leeds (and cheaper than the train) is being withdrawn due to lack of passenger numbers, so it would appear that a coach service would be less viable than would first appear. There may be a market between Leeds and Mcr though.

 

[nr758123]

Unless TPE get their act together there will be no need for even the current level of service, people will find alternatives, or just not make the journey.

That’s the position I’m in.

I’m going to an event in Manchester tomorrow evening. I’m a strong supporter of rail travel and in normal circumstances it wouldn’t even be open to question whether that journey would be made by rail, 35 minutes each way.

However, if it was yesterday the last train home would have been at 2030, everything later being either cancelled or a replacement bus taking 1h45’. Everything after 2030 tomorrow has already been cancelled. If it was today, the last train home is 1930 if that doesn’t get cancelled as well.

The absence of options for trains home and the extended journey times by replacement bus aren’t reflected in the fares charged.

Now there may be people whose evening would be nicely finished off with a big row with the hapless representative of a clueless train company followed if they're lucky by nearly 2 hours on a replacement bus at an average speed of less than 13mph, but that’s not my idea of a good evening out.

I’ve no wish to have my evening spoiled by TPE, so I’m driving.

 

[VauxhallNova]

As I have stated previously, the ratio of trained crews to diagrams is insufficient, it may have worked "on paper" but it doesn't in the real world with real people. Therefore, there is a heavy reliance on rest day working to make up the shortfall. Obviously, if staff are working their rest day, turns which start or finish in the early hours of the morning are not going be so easy to cover since working such turns effectively means a second day is disrupted for the staff involved. When you have a lot of uncovered turns, and only a limited pool of available rest day volunteers, its always the shifts in the middle which will be covered first, its only to be expected, but even then, even the most enthusiastic members of staff get to the point where they need some "down time".

TPE Nova 3 (Class 68 + Mk5s) updates and withdrawal from service

Nova 3: NO Passenger Diagrams Today • Diagram: LT705 Loco: 68028 Rake: TP12 First Class at start of day: N/A 1E23 05:56 LIV-SCA (CANX) FAULT 1F60 09:41 SCA-LIV (CANX) FAULT 1E37 12:56 LIV-SCA (CANX) FAULT 1F74 16:44 SCA-LIV (CANX) FAULT 1E51 19:56 SCA-LIV (CANX) FAULT • Diagram: LT701 Loco...

www.railforums.co.uk

This interesting quote from December 2019 suggest that not all the issues are caused by DfT, and to some degree reflect the risks and vulnerabilities inherent to First Group's management of the franchise as it was pre-Covid.

Performance since March 2020 seems to have got steadily worse, in line with trying to increase the number of trains run.

 

[mike57]

Interesting to note that even with the current TPE chaos, the non stop fast City Zap bus service that operates between York and Leeds (and cheaper than the train) is being withdrawn due to lack of passenger numbers, so it would appear that a coach service would be less viable than would first appear. There may be a market between Leeds and Mcr though.

Yes but Leeds - York is well served by other TOCs, so you dont get stuck (unless you buy a TPE only ticket, which I would never do in the current climate). Really for York - Leeds - Manchester TPE is the only realistic service, the Northern service via Bradford and the Calder valley just takes too long.

 

[trainophile]

Someone tweeted yesterday that their B-C train was cancelled, so would they be allowed to get the previous one. TPE said if your train is cancelled you can get either the one before or the one after. The person then asked whether they could get an earlier A-B train (also TPE), to facilitate catching the earlier B-C connection. They were told no, if your booked train is running then you should get that one.

So they would rather people had to wait around (at York in this instance) for over an hour, then claim delay repay, rather than the sensible thing of allowing the affected passenger/s to make their whole 2-leg TPE journey earlier in order to avoid inconvenience and delay caused by their own cancellations.

 

[Getbacktowork]

Someone tweeted yesterday that their B-C train was cancelled, so would they be allowed to get the previous one. TPE said if your train is cancelled you can get either the one before or the one after. The person then asked whether they could get an earlier A-B train (also TPE), to facilitate catching the earlier B-C connection. They were told no, if your booked train is running then you should get that one.

So they would rather people had to wait around (at York in this instance) for over an hour, then claim delay repay, rather than the sensible thing of allowing the affected passenger/s to make their whole 2-leg TPE journey earlier in order to avoid inconvenience and delay caused by their own cancellations.

I was in a similar position yesterday, although the connection was LNER to cancelled TPE rather than TPE to TPE.

I used an earlier LNER service without issue, even though they weren't at fault, and ticket acceptance was not an issue. No permission was asked in advance of travel in my case, as I felt what I did was reasonable under the circumstances. Some passengers may not have been so confident.

 

[Bertie the bus]

Someone tweeted yesterday that their B-C train was cancelled, so would they be allowed to get the previous one. TPE said if your train is cancelled you can get either the one before or the one after. The person then asked whether they could get an earlier A-B train (also TPE), to facilitate catching the earlier B-C connection. They were told no, if your booked train is running then you should get that one.

So they would rather people had to wait around (at York in this instance) for over an hour, then claim delay repay, rather than the sensible thing of allowing the affected passenger/s to make their whole 2-leg TPE journey earlier in order to avoid inconvenience and delay caused by their own cancellations.

I don't know why A - B and B - C needs to be used in instances like this. Is it a state secret? If it is then putting their journey on Twitter wasn't very sensible.

As for what happened, very unusually, I have to agree with TPE's actions here. If you use split Advance tickets, which is presumably what they did, then you can't expect to be treated as though you have bought a through walk-up ticket. The first train ran so they are tied to it.