Transport for London Looking for New DMUs?

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fgwrich

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I presume the GOBLIN Still isnt justifying elecftrication then?

Railway Gazette‏@railwaygazette

TfL seeks expressions of interest in the supply of 8 x 3 or 4-car diesel trains for London Overground's Gospel Oak-Barking line from 2013
(From the railway gazettes twitter feed)

I wonder if these to supplement or replace the 172's then?
 
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anthony263

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From what I heard they wanted a centre carriage for the current London Overground class 172's together with perhaps some additional units to provide extra capacity.
 

Failed Unit

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From what I heard they wanted a centre carriage for the current London Overground class 172's together with perhaps some additional units to provide extra capacity.
Surely on one supplier can do this? Would be shocked if a whole new train is cheaper than adding coaches to an existing one.
 

anthony263

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Nothing to stop TFL ordering a complete new fleet of new dmu's from another train builder although I do agree that would be unlikely.
 

ainsworth74

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Surely on one supplier can do this? Would be shocked if a whole new train is cheaper than adding coaches to an existing one.
You would think so wouldn't you? I would guess this will end up the same way as the Southern 377 deal did. Written in such a way that only one company can actually win a tender to supply the vehicles/units.
 

HSTEd

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They could be planning to buy a new fleet of TfL specific (ie Cl378 style interior) DMUs and then cascade the Cl172s to whoever.
 

jopsuk

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or get intermediate 172 carriages to the same spec as a relatively short term stop gap measure as electrification seems to be well beyoond when they'd like to go to three/four car operation. Perhaps once GOBLIN is electrified Chiltern might be interested in additional longer units...
 

aformeruser

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Just a thought it might be 8 x 4 car units but what if it's actually 16 centre carriages for LO with 8 x 2 car 172s for LM? With the LO units not having toilets that may be more logical than building new longer trains for LO and cascading the existing trains to LM.
 

317666

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As I understand it, the reason that the London Overground Class 172s have 2+2 seating rather than longitudinal is so that one day they can be cascaded without having to have the internal layout changed to make them more suitable. It's possible that the new DMUs TfL are after may have a 378-style, longitudinal seated interior.
 

aformeruser

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As I understand it, the reason that the London Overground Class 172s have 2+2 seating rather than longitudinal is so that one day they can be cascaded without having to have the internal layout changed to make them more suitable.
Seems strange they made them toilet less then as generally DMUs aren't used on frequent metro style services so it will be difficult to find them an alternative route without fitting toilets or permanently attaching them to other 172s with toilets - maybe even splitting them up in a similar way to how the 150/2s were split and used as centre carriages.
 

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Seems strange they made them toilet less then as generally DMUs aren't used on frequent metro style services so it will be difficult to find them an alternative route without fitting toilets or permanently attaching them to other 172s with toilets - maybe even splitting them up in a similar way to how the 150/2s were split and used as centre carriages.
True, although as were seeing with Scotrails 320s that fitting a new Toilet Module, although probably not the easiest is possible.

And as LOROL is part operated by Chiltern / DB, perhaps thats why Chiltern only ordered 4 units - with future cascades of ex London Overground units in mind?
 

John55

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The actual wording of the TfL notice on the Government Online website issued on 16/05/12 is;

TfL is seeking expressions of interest for the following Supplies and/or Services.
a) Provision of approximately eight 3-car DMUs suitable for operation on the Gospel Oak -Barking railway, without associated train-maintenance services
b) Provision of approximately eight 3-car DMUs suitable for operation on the Gospel Oak -Barking railway, with associated train-maintenance services
TfL may consider 4-car DMUs in lieu of 3-car, but does not envisage a fleet of mixed train length.
TfL has an aspiration to introduce longer trains from 2013.
This notice is for information and to help TfL gauge market interest.
 

ainsworth74

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Well that sounds perfectly suited for Bombardier to rock up and say "we'll build you eight center vehicles for £x" (and £x is going to be far cheaper than £y that anyone else could offer) thereby converting all eight existing 172s into these 3-car DMUs specified (and giving some more good press coverage about how their supporting British train building).
 

aformeruser

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And as LOROL is part operated by Chiltern / DB, perhaps thats why Chiltern only ordered 4 units - with future cascades of ex London Overground units in mind?
How cam Chiltern make use of 8 x 2 car 172s?

Well that sounds perfectly suited for Bombardier to rock up and say "we'll build you eight center vehicles for £x" (and £x is going to be far cheaper than £y that anyone else could offer) thereby converting all eight existing 172s into these 3-car DMUs specified (and giving some more good press coverage about how their supporting British train building).
Bombardier are a business not getting a great deal of work. I'm sure they're rather build 8 new 3 or 4 car 172s than 8-16 new centre cars.
 

ainsworth74

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Bombardier are a business not getting a great deal of work. I'm sure they're rather build 8 new 3 or 4 car 172s than 8-16 new centre cars.
True, but if they go down that road they're going to be competing fully on the open market whereas submitting a bid to just build centre cars means they're almost certainly going to win. Also it's worth pointing out that Bombardier as a business is getting plenty of work it's just their Derby plant that isn't.
 

ainsworth74

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I'd say that the S Stock production counts as plenty of work (largest stock order in British history etc. etc.)
Okay, Derby doesn't seem to have much in the way of future orders (especially if it doesn't get Crossrail) once it finishes off the S Stock build (and the 377 build). That better ;)
 

tbtc

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The actual wording of the TfL notice on the Government Online website issued on 16/05/12 is;

TfL is seeking expressions of interest for the following Supplies and/or Services.
a) Provision of approximately eight 3-car DMUs suitable for operation on the Gospel Oak -Barking railway, without associated train-maintenance services
b) Provision of approximately eight 3-car DMUs suitable for operation on the Gospel Oak -Barking railway, with associated train-maintenance services
TfL may consider 4-car DMUs in lieu of 3-car, but does not envisage a fleet of mixed train length.
TfL has an aspiration to introduce longer trains from 2013.
This notice is for information and to help TfL gauge market interest.
Good news. Although it will be a pretty small order, so presumably a relatively high unit price?
 

aformeruser

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they could also go to LM to displace some 150 and 153 units to Northern...
The 172s can't replace the 3 remaining 150s at LM without infrastructure changes. LM were asking DfT for more new DMUs so they would want to make a capacity gain from any cascades. I could see LM getting the 172s and releasing the 153s.

With the delays with electrification and releasing the 319s Northern could certainly make use of extra DMUs, especially on North West services from April 2014 when it's proposed that North West TPE services will be cut back to allow for the Scottish services going via Wigan and the additional service on the Liverpool-York section of North TPE.
 

Eagle

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Okay, Derby doesn't seem to have much in the way of future orders (especially if it doesn't get Crossrail) once it finishes off the S Stock build (and the 377 build). That better ;)
As an aside, if pantograph cars for Voyagers ever actually happens (which is not especially improbable), where is it likely to be done? Derby, Bruges, or somewhere else?
 

317666

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If Bombardier do get orders for their new(ish) Aventra design, is there any guarantee that it would be built at Derby?
 

Pumbaa

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As an aside, if pantograph cars for Voyagers ever actually happens (which is not especially improbable), where is it likely to be done? Derby, Bruges, or somewhere else?
Bombardier has already said, well, been forced to admit only the design work will be done at Derby. The building will take place on the continent.
 

ainsworth74

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Bombardier has already said, well, been forced to admit only the design work will be done at Derby. The building will take place on the continent.
I think that's due to the way the Voyager body shells are built (or something along those lines).

EDIT: Beaten to it by YorkshireBear (and with a more informative answer as well!).
 
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