Transport for Wales Class 230

[paddyb6]

We are back to the trusty 150 today! Maybe a 197 will be used later, all information reliably taken from RTT.

The 197 was booked only for yesterday in preparation for the TT change, believe it will be 2x 197 and 1x 230, with it swapping to 1x 197 and 2x 230 if reliability improves.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

We are back to the trusty 150 today! Maybe a 197 will be used later, all information reliably taken from RTT.

As I've said to you before this week, information coming from RTT does not make it reliable.

The 197 was booked only for yesterday in preparation for the TT change, believe it will be 2x 197 and 1x 230, with it swapping to 1x 197 and 2x 230 if reliability improves.

Either way, both combinations make for an every 45 minute frequency, and what was promised was every half hour. That was the least the line deserved seeing as the cruddy 230s have made the line almost unusable thus far.

 

[childwallblues]

As I've said to you before this week, information coming from RTT does not make it reliable.


Either way, both combinations make for an every 45 minute frequency, and what was promised was every half hour. That was the least the line deserved seeing as the cruddy 230s have made the line almost unusable thus far.

Meaning of the word cruddy is dirty, unpleasant or of low quality. I do think that you are insulting both the staff of Birkenhead North EMU Depot and the Chester train crew who run the services and take pride in their work. I have travelled on the 230s on numerous occasions and your description does not fit.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Meaning of the word cruddy is dirty, unpleasant or of low quality.

Yes, I do consider them to be low-quality, correct. Their appalling reliability is testament to that.

I do think that you are insulting both the staff of Birkenhead North EMU Depot and the Chester train crew who run the services and take pride in their work.

I’m sorry you see it that way. I stand by my opinion that the trains are cruddy. You’re welcome to disagree, as you’ve just said you do. I’m sure the staff work very hard indeed, that doesn’t detract from the trains themselves being poor and unreliable.

 

[Caaardiff]

Yes, I do consider them to be low-quality, correct. Their appalling reliability is testament to that.

I’m sorry you see it that way. I stand by my opinion that the trains are cruddy. You’re welcome to disagree, as you’ve just said you do. I’m sure the staff work very hard indeed, that doesn’t detract from the trains themselves being poor and unreliable.

Many people are actually quite complimentary of the trains, when they work. There's a big difference between appearances and what goes on underneath. The trains are not cruddy, what they are is persistently unreliable.

 

[Penmorfa]

Many people are actually quite complimentary of the trains, when they work. There's a big difference between appearances and what goes on underneath. The trains are not cruddy, what they are is persistently unreliable.

I would agree, they are very nice inside and very much better than some of the new stock foisted upon us. Even the seats are acceptable

 

[craigybagel]

I’m not totally sure but 197’s can be put into ‘super power mode’ which holds them in a lower gear for longer so gives better acceleration. This is usually only allowed with permission from control but perhaps they’ll allow it in this route to try help the 197 keep time ?

No restrictions at present on using super power mode - although I personally don't use it when a slippy rail is likely. It's also unnecessary on most of their current routes unless running late.

I don't think it's really the panacea for the Bidston line - even in eco mode 197s are already quicker from start to stop than a 150, it's other issues that cause the delays.

Either way, both combinations make for an every 45 minute frequency, and what was promised was every half hour. That was the least the line deserved seeing as the cruddy 230s have made the line almost unusable thus far.

This is a first step. Hopefully 30 minutes will come down the line when units are available.

 

[Peter Sarf]

No restrictions at present on using super power mode - although I personally don't use it when a slippy rail is likely. It's also unnecessary on most of their current routes unless running late.

I don't think it's really the panacea for the Bidston line - even in eco mode 197s are already quicker from start to stop than a 150, it's other issues that cause the delays.

This is a first step. Hopefully 30 minutes will come down the line when units are available.

But the power is totally useless if the grip is not there. The lighter the weight on the driven axles or the fewer the number of driven axles then the less power can be used. Law-of-Physics. Opposite is the heavier the train is then the more power is needed but can be used.

And it was said upthread that the 197s are light. But how well do they grip.

The borderlands line is mentioned as being poor for adhesion.

 

[craigybagel]

But the power is totally useless if the grip is not there. The lighter the weight on the driven axles or the fewer the number of driven axles then the less power can be used. Law-of-Physics. Opposite is the heavier the train is then the more power is needed but can be used.

And it was said upthread that the 197s are light. But how well do they grip.

The borderlands line is mentioned as being poor for adhesion.

Exactly. That is part of the "other issues" that I referred to as why 197s will struggle on Bidston, even in eco mode.

 

[Phatcontroller]

Would it help to designate some or all of the intermediate stations as request stops? If nobody wishes to board or alight it should provide recovery time.

 

[L401CJF]

Would it help to designate some or all of the intermediate stations as request stops? If nobody wishes to board or alight it should provide recovery time.

At one time most stops on this line were request stops, no longer the case of course. Not sure why it changed, but in my experience the conductor wouldn't have time to check/sell tickets and ask for request stops in the 2mins between stations, often selling one ticket can take up the whole time between the closer stations so you'd probably end up stopping everywhere anyway by the time you've got round to everybody.

I could certainly understand having request stops on some trips - mainly the quieter mid day and evening journeys where loadings are lighter.

 

[DLAYKEGER]

What we need is allowing a buffer time between services so if the proceeding train is late the next train at Bidston or Wrexham can leave on or nearly on time. It takes regularly over an hour to run the full length of line, so you can't run an hourly service with jyst 2 trains. In theory a buffier at each end could occur with a 45min service and 4 trans. However, I believe 3 have been allocated from Dec 8th.. if it is true just one 230 and 2 x 197 that is shocking they can't still get 2 x 230 running out of 5 at the same time for some reason. The other issue is why the 230 that leaves Birkenhead North as Empty Coaching Stock, does not seem to have a buffer time if late leaving Birkenhead or is late running. This results in the 1st 230 not leaving on time, or is it delayed as staff are not available. You regularly see the 1st 230 of day running late, with a subsequent return service cancelled later in the day

As for cruddiness, that is not fair, its a much nicer passenger experience that a noisy 150.

 

[Phatcontroller]

Could they work it like the Sheffield Supertram on which the automated announcer describes the next stop and anyone wising to alight must press a bell? That would avoid the need for the guard to make a list.

 

[sd0733]

No 230s expected out later today. Nothing wrong with the units, lack of Stadler staff at Birkenhead depot who sign them to shunt, fuel etc for start of service.

 

[L401CJF]

Saw 2x230 in 6 car formation arriving into Bidston from the Wrexham direction earlier around 1215, unsure where from or why.

 

[Northerngirl]

Looks like its still an hourly timetable today, hopefully things improve on Monday with the 197s seemingly taking the load

 

[L401CJF]

Looks like its still an hourly timetable today, hopefully things improve on Monday with the 197s seemingly taking the load

It's down as every 45 ish tomorrow on journey planners etc. Is it even supposed to be every 45 mins on a Sunday? Would have thought an hourly service on a Sunday would be intended? Can't say I've looked at the planned timetable though so can't say for certain.

There is a 197 and a 230 on there today, with the 230 working the late shift.

 

[Northerngirl]

It's down as every 45 ish tomorrow on journey planners etc. Is it even supposed to be every 45 mins on a Sunday? Would have thought an hourly service on a Sunday would be intended? Can't say I've looked at the planned timetable though so can't say for certain.

There is a 197 and a 230 on there today, with the 230 working the late shift.

The info screens seem to be saying about hourly but you could be right with the Sunday service

 

[Lewisham2221]

The 197 was booked only for yesterday in preparation for the TT change, believe it will be 2x 197 and 1x 230, with it swapping to 1x 197 and 2x 230 if reliability improves.

That's what it appears to be today, according to RTT.

 

[sd0733]

That's what it appears to be today, according to RTT.

That's the diagrams at the moment. The 230 is planned to do a swap at Bidston around 13:15.

 

[CaergwrleKen]

It’s all very well having this new timetable but it’s not very practical really. The real problem is the amount of time and money TfW are going to carry on spending on the 230 fleet which is clearly not fit for purpose.

Very good to have the 197s on the route but this is unfortunately others loss and trains on other routes are being cancelled and trains to Cardiff are only 2 carriages instead of 4 because there aren’t enough of them.

At the end of the day it comes down to the 230 shambles, they aren’t fit for purpose.

 

[Dan G]

I think blaming the 230s for the slow introduction of the 197s is stretching things somewhat!

We understand that you do not like the 230s.

 

[craigybagel]

I think blaming the 230s for the slow introduction of the 197s is stretching things somewhat!

We understand that you do not like the 230s.

To be fair, 197s were never meant to be on Bidstons. The fact that the 230s can't be relied upon to run the service means that 197s have have had to be diverted there instead of being where they are meant to be. Given how much 2 car 197s struggle on many of the routes they're currently working, those extra 2 sets could have been pretty useful somewhere else.

Alternatively, they could be used for training - since a previous poster has stated that training in the South has been suspended to keep as many units as possible on passenger services. Suspending training is going to have knock on effects that will probably be felt for a long time.

The 230s aren't the only things to blame for the 197 programmes struggles, but they're definitely part of it.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I think blaming the 230s for the slow introduction of the 197s is stretching things somewhat!

We understand that you do not like the 230s.

No, the 230s have to be the worst performing multiple units in the UK for the past five years. They’ve been a disaster. And indeed, 197s should not be taken off the main routes to cover them. Let alone TWO.

 

[D365]

No, the 230s have to be the worst performing multiple units in the UK for the past five years.

By what metric?

 

[Bertie the bus]

By what metric?

That it requires 5 units to cover 1 diagram?

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

That it requires 5 units to cover 1 diagram?

Merci. Well said.

 

[Peter Sarf]

It’s all very well having this new timetable but it’s not very practical really. The real problem is the amount of time and money TfW are going to carry on spending on the 230 fleet which is clearly not fit for purpose.

Very good to have the 197s on the route but this is unfortunately others loss and trains on other routes are being cancelled and trains to Cardiff are only 2 carriages instead of 4 because there aren’t enough of them.

At the end of the day it comes down to the 230 shambles, they aren’t fit for purpose.

I doubt much time and money is being spent by TfW on the Borderlines line. I have a feeling that if TfW did not own their 230s but leased them then they might be tempted to dispense with them.

No, the 230s have to be the worst performing multiple units in the UK for the past five years. They’ve been a disaster. And indeed, 197s should not be taken off the main routes to cover them. Let alone TWO.

So are you saying that the Borderlines service should be abandoned for the benefit of other routes ?.

 

[Bertie the bus]

So are you saying that the Borderlines service should be abandoned for the benefit of other routes ?.

Well, they have abandoned the service before. Whether they abandon it or not the decision to increase services, and the number of units required to operate it, on a secondary route when the availability of the 230s remains pitifully low and they are struggling for units on far more important routes was stupid.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Well, they have abandoned the service before. Whether they abandon it or not the decision to increase services, and the number of units required to operate it, on a secondary route when the availability of the 230s remains pitifully low and they are struggling for units on far more important routes was stupid.

Well said. Let’s make sure we can maintain the basic service frequency on the principal route first, before pinching its trains to service a far quieter line. I’d say that even if the 197s were being used to make sure the Borderlands could run its basic hourly service, but EVEN MORE so when it’s being done to give it double service frequency!

Priorities need to be considered here.