Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[33017]

How much longer is it going to take to get those Class 756 FLIRTS into service? They have been sitting in sidings for months now.

Surely the top priority should be to get them running on the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line and get that service up to half hourly - including Sundays? It might be the last chance to help save Cardiff Airport from it simply being used for British Airways engineering only?

If they were put into service in the VoG (which I don’t believe is route cleared, yet), they’d manage one return trip then need charging. There also the minor matter of all VoG services being worked by mainline crew from either Cardiff or Carmarthen, and none of them sign Flirts.

 

[Envoy]

If they were put into service in the VoG (which I don’t believe is route cleared, yet), they’d manage one return trip then need charging. There also the minor matter of all VoG services being worked by mainline crew from either Cardiff or Carmarthen, and none of them sign Flirts.

They are tri-mode so surely the diesel engine would get them from Cardiff to Bridgend and back?

Sooner or later, they will have to get the mainline crews trained to operate these FLIRTS.Wonder if any start has been made on this?

I don’t see why they could not make a start into service on the City Line between Radyr & Coryton - which has the western section electrified & live. (Yes, I know that the intention is for the Class 398’s to operate this route eventually).

 

[craigybagel]

They are tri-mode so surely the diesel engine would get them from Cardiff to Bridgend and back?

I don't believe there's the fuel capacity for them to run round on diesel all day.

Sooner or later, they will have to get the mainline crews trained to operate these FLIRTS.Wonder if any start has been made on this?

Focus has been on 197s at mainline. Still a few drivers who've recently transferred into the expanded loco links that need 67 training as well

 

[33017]

They are tri-mode so surely the diesel engine would get them from Cardiff to Bridgend and back?

Sooner or later, they will have to get the mainline crews trained to operate these FLIRTS.Wonder if any start has been made on this?

I don’t see why they could not make a start into service on the City Line between Radyr & Coryton - which has the western section electrified & live. (Yes, I know that the intention is for the Class 398’s to operate this route eventually).

The diesel engine is 640 hp. That’s only 70 hp more than a 150’s got for a train that’s the best part of three times heavier.

 

[Nottingham59]

The diesel engine is 640 hp. That’s only 70 hp more than a 150’s got for a train that’s the best part of three times heavier.

That shouldn't matter in a tri-mode, provided the battery has enough power to get up to line speed. The diesel can recharge the battery after the train has accelerated.

 

[Envoy]

The diesel engine is 640 hp. That’s only 70 hp more than a 150’s got for a train that’s the best part of three times heavier.

Perhaps it would be better to operate 197’s on this route with perhaps an extension through to Swansea (Swanline stoppers) or even further west - thus giving direct trains to Rhoose for the airport and Barry. This would also solve the crewing issue as mainline drivers do sign the 197’s.

 

[33017]

Perhaps it would be better to operate 197’s on this route with perhaps an extension through to Swansea (Swanline stoppers) or even further west - thus giving direct trains to Rhoose for the airport and Barry. This would also solve the crewing issue as mainline drivers do sign the 197’s.

197s are something else that are not currently cleared over the VoG.

That shouldn't matter in a tri-mode, provided the battery has enough power to get up to line speed. The diesel can recharge the battery after the train has accelerated.

I don’t think the diesel engine is designed to run all day charging the batteries.

 

[StripeyNick]

How much longer is it going to take to get those Class 756 FLIRTS into service? They have been sitting in sidings for months now.

Surely the top priority should be to get them running on the Vale of Glamorgan Coast Line and get that service up to half hourly - including Sundays? It might be the last chance to help save Cardiff Airport from it simply being used for British Airways engineering only?

I think they need to do a certain amount of mileage accumulation first, hence all the runs to Swindon. It was 6 months between 231007 being delivered and entering service (that one being the first to enter service). 001 was around 9 months.

I've heard that the 231s could go mainline in December so maybe we could be looking at 756s coming out them? It'd be a bit of a backward step to go to the 150s on the Rhymney line having had new trains since January

 

[anthony263]

I think they need to do a certain amount of mileage accumulation first, hence all the runs to Swindon. It was 6 months between 231007 being delivered and entering service (that one being the first to enter service). 001 was around 9 months.

I've heard that the 231s could go mainline in December so maybe we could be looking at 756s coming out them? It'd be a bit of a backward step to go to the 150s on the Rhymney line having had new trains since January

I think there was talk of some 150s replacing 231s on the Rhymney line but some Rhymney diagrams would co ti up using class 231s.
The batteries on the 756s take about 15 minutes to fully charge so travelling under the wires to Aberdare etc should work plus the 756s are due to eventually work over the VOG and the diesel engine is used only if the batteries drop to less than 35% charge

 

[Envoy]

197s are something else that are not currently cleared over the VoG.

I really don’t get why it is such a big deal to get new stock ‘cleared’ for certain routes? I get that they need to make some test runs down a line with a new train but why don’t they just get on and do that? So, if the 197’s are not cleared for the VOG coast line and the mainline between Bridgend and Cardiff is closed for whatever reason, they then have to cancel the trains and turf off the passengers.

 

[Peter Sarf]

They are tri-mode so surely the diesel engine would get them from Cardiff to Bridgend and back?

Sooner or later, they will have to get the mainline crews trained to operate these FLIRTS.Wonder if any start has been made on this?

I don’t see why they could not make a start into service on the City Line between Radyr & Coryton - which has the western section electrified & live. (Yes, I know that the intention is for the Class 398’s to operate this route eventually).

+

That shouldn't matter in a tri-mode, provided the battery has enough power to get up to line speed. The diesel can recharge the battery after the train has accelerated.

My simple feeling is that if the 756s could cope with running most of the day on non-electrified routes then why on earth do the 231s have four diesel engines and no batteries. So I don't think running 756s for long periods away from the wires is likely to work.

Putting them on parts of the Valley lines that are electrified might work if it allows 231s to be freed up.

 

[Trainbike46]

+

My simple feeling is that if the 756s could cope with running most of the day on non-electrified routes then why on earth do the 231s have four diesel engines and no batteries. So I don't think running 756s for long periods away from the wires is likely to work.

Putting them on parts of the Valley lines that are electrified might work if it allows 231s to be freed up.

exactly, the diesel engine on the 756s isn't intended to be used all the time, and probably wouldn't work properly anyway. The partial electrification of the lines needs to be finished before the 756s can be used

 

[33017]

Because nothing is built to simple clearance standards such as C1, C2 or C3 any more. It’s got to the stage where there are even different signal sighting standards for ECS and passenger trains.

 

[sd0733]

I really don’t get why it is such a big deal to get new stock ‘cleared’ for certain routes? I get that they need to make some test runs down a line with a new train but why don’t they just get on and do that? So, if the 197’s are not cleared for the VOG coast line and the mainline between Bridgend and Cardiff is closed for whatever reason, they then have to cancel the trains and turf off the passengers.

It's not a big deal but it would delay another part of the project somewhere else.
There was a Time where 197s (and Mk4s) weren't going to be signed for anything West of Cardiff until cleared for the VOG, but as that would have delayed the roll out they were allowed before clearing the VOG. They will have to be eventually but getting them in service on all their intended routes is the priority.
In any case, there's not enough 197s at the moment for the mainline, so putting them on short distance work via the VOG wouldn't be happening if they were cleared.

 

[Envoy]

It's not a big deal but it would delay another part of the project somewhere else.
There was a Time where 197s (and Mk4s) weren't going to be signed for anything West of Cardiff until cleared for the VOG, but as that would have delayed the roll out they were allowed before clearing the VOG. They will have to be eventually but getting them in service on all their intended routes is the priority.
In any case, there's not enough 197s at the moment for the mainline, so putting them on short distance work via the VOG wouldn't be happening if they were cleared.

Many thanks for this answer. It does however seem risky not to have the 197’s cleared for the VOG in case something goes wrong on the mainline.

 

[positron]

What's the issue with running 756s from Merthyr to Bridgend power wise? The electrification is complete along that route. So if the 756s can't handle that plus VOG then someone's seriously messed up.

Route clearance (probably not a difficult fix will need doing eventually) and staffing are probably the actual issues not this talk of diesel engines. Also 231s has 4 diesels probably partly because it's designed for 100mph running, not 75mph with battery to help.

Regarding route clearance haven't they stored some at Barry sidings so it'd just be that last bit from Barry to Bridgend that needs doing

 

[Caaardiff]

756's will be used on TAM side due to delays in 398's entering service. 231's will remain on Rhymney services as the train crew are all trained up. Moving 231's on to Ebbw Vale and Maesteg/Cheltenham services will be a while yet until mainline train crew (which operate VOG services despite some new posters disagreements) can be freed up for training.
When enough 197's arrive and they are route cleared to Maesteg & Ebbw Vale then they will cover those services with the 15x fleet until the new trains on Valleys are all up and running.
There's a few 158's freed up at the moment with the Barmouth block until December, so in a few weeks times they'll need more and more 197's delivered in order to cover for those going back to the Cambrian.

 

[trebor79]

That shouldn't matter in a tri-mode, provided the battery has enough power to get up to line speed. The diesel can recharge the battery after the train has accelerated.

What would the point on doing that be? You might as well run it on diesel and avoid all the charging losses.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

756's will be used on TAM side due to delays in 398's entering service. 231's will remain on Rhymney services as the train crew are all trained up.

Assuming TAM is Pontypridds, do you know an expected introduction date? Perhaps Jan 24, which would be a year to the introduction of 231s?

 

[tomos dafis]

There are blue stop boards displaying 'FLIRT 3/4' on the main southbound platform at Pontypridd so an indication they will be used there and maybe north of there?

 

[Richard Scott]

What would the point on doing that be? You might as well run it on diesel and avoid all the charging losses.

When coasting could use diesel to recharge batteries, think what's being alluded to is that diesel on its own would lose time as insufficient power and may as well charge batteries when diesel not required for powering the train?

 

[56xx]

Assuming TAM is Pontypridds, do you know an expected introduction date? Perhaps Jan 24, which would be a year to the introduction of 231s?

TAM (Treherbert Aberdare Merthyr Tydfil)

 

[Nottingham59]

What would the point on doing that be? You might as well run it on diesel and avoid all the charging losses.

Varoius advantages:

On a hilly route with lots of stop-start running, a battery can capture well over half of the energy expended by the diesel, so half the fuel costs.

The diesel engine can be much smaller and cheaper, as it only has to generate the average power used over the route, rather than the peak power requirement.

Steady running incurs much less wear on a diesel engine than the intermittent loads of purely diesel traction.

And if the batteries have enough charge to get back to the wires, you don't need to run the engine at all.

 

[anthony263]

Varoius advantages:

On a hilly route with lots of stop-start running, a battery can capture well over half of the energy expended by the diesel, so half the fuel costs.

The diesel engine can be much smaller and cheaper, as it only has to generate the average power used over the route, rather than the peak power requirement.

Steady running incurs much less wear on a diesel engine than the intermittent loads of purely diesel traction.

And if the batteries have enough charge to get back to the wires, you don't need to run the engine at all.

Some drivers doing the millage runs between Newport abd Swindon said they ran tne 756s on batteries alone from Newport to Wotton Bassett before the charge dropped to 35% and the diesel engine kicked in to keep the batteries on 35% until they were recharged under the wires

 

[trebor79]

Varoius advantages:

On a hilly route with lots of stop-start running, a battery can capture well over half of the energy expended by the diesel, so half the fuel costs.

The diesel engine can be much smaller and cheaper, as it only has to generate the average power used over the route, rather than the peak power requirement.

Steady running incurs much less wear on a diesel engine than the intermittent loads of purely diesel traction.

And if the batteries have enough charge to get back to the wires, you don't need to run the engine at all.

Ah yes, all valid, my brain wasn't working very well

 

[Pete_uk]

Would the 756s be able to reach Cheltenham and back from Severn Tunnel Junction?

 

[oglord]

Would the 756s be able to reach Cheltenham and back from Severn Tunnel Junction?

They could certainly do it one-way on batteries, because STJ to Cheltenham is shorter than Newport to Wootton Bassett. The round trip would be too long though, unless they can recharge at Cheltenham.

 

[33017]

Some drivers doing the millage runs between Newport abd Swindon said they ran tne 756s on batteries alone from Newport to Wotton Bassett before the charge dropped to 35% and the diesel engine kicked in to keep the batteries on 35% until they were recharged under the wires

Fits with what I’ve been told - 80 miles on battery (Newport to Wooton Bassett is just over 50).

 

[anthony263]

Fits with what I’ve been told - 80 miles on battery (Newport to Wooton Bassett is just over 50).

Plenty of juice fir batteries to get from Cardiff to Bridgend with the diesel engine keeping batteries topped up. 15 minutes under the wires will fully charge the batteries so plenty for the 756s

 

[CapitalStar378]

Plenty of juice fir batteries to get from Cardiff to Bridgend with the diesel engine keeping batteries topped up. 15 minutes under the wires will fully charge the batteries so plenty for the 756s

This one of their future routes so hopefully they do work.