Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[Envoy]

They've got live wires all the way from Aberdare and Merthyr (just south of) to Cardiff (aside from the planned gaps). So it's even weirder they haven't moved faster to get 756s running.

They haven’t even bothered to start training on the 756’s yet - despite loads of them sitting in sidings at Barry for most of the summer.

Perhaps they don’t want to introduce them on services through Radyr because people might complain about a downgrade when they get swapped for the Class 398 tram-trains?

 

[Jez]

They haven’t even bothered to start training on the 756’s yet - despite loads of them sitting in sidings at Barry for most of the summer.

Perhaps they don’t want to introduce them on services through Radyr because people might complain about a downgrade when they get swapped for the Class 398 tram-trains?

If training hasnt started then we arent likely to see these in service for another 6 months at least.

I doubt that. They arent bothered about Maesteg/Ebbw Vale being downgraded from a 170 to 150/153s!

 

[Envoy]

If training hasnt started then we arent likely to see these in service for another 6 months at least.

I doubt that. They arent bothered about Maesteg/Ebbw Vale being downgraded from a 170 to 150/153s!

At least Maesteg/Ebbw Vale is a relatively short distance. They are using 150’s and 153’s for long distance travel such as Manchester to south Wales.

 

[Jez]

At least Maesteg/Ebbw Vale is a relatively short distance. They are using 150’s and 153’s for long distance travel such as Manchester to south Wales.

True. But for the most part the long distance 150 and 153s aren't booked workings they are mainly covering for the lack of MK4 and less 197s than needed in service.

 

[craigybagel]

They haven’t even bothered to start training on the 756’s yet - despite loads of them sitting in sidings at Barry for most of the summer.

Perhaps they don’t want to introduce them on services through Radyr because people might complain about a downgrade when they get swapped for the Class 398 tram-trains?

Not bothered or not yet able? They don't make these decisions just for the sake of it or just to spite people online.

It's in TfW's best interests to get these units out as soon as they can, and that is what they're trying to do.

 

[Anonymous10]

If training hasnt started then we arent likely to see these in service for another 6 months at least.

I doubt that. They arent bothered about Maesteg/Ebbw Vale being downgraded from a 170 to 150/153s!

And are talking about putting the 231s on that route and 15x onto Rhymney.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Not bothered or not yet able? They don't make these decisions just for the sake of it or just to spite people online.

It's in TfW's best interests to get these units out as soon as they can, and that is what they're trying to do.

Do we know if/how many 756s are accepted by TfW?
No point in expecting training and live services while they are still commercially in Stadler's hands.

 

[Dai Corner]

Do we know if/how many 756s are accepted by TfW?
No point in expecting training and live services while they are still commercially in Stadler's hands.

All Valleys traincrew are presumably trained on 231s by now. Learning the electric bits on 756s would be premature until they and the infrastructure are ready to enter service.

 

[Jez]

And are talking about putting the 231s on that route and 15x onto Rhymney.

I'd heard that too but wasn't sure if that was still.going ahead. That will be a downgrade having a 231 replaced with 150/153s

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

It's in TfW's best interests to get these units out as soon as they can, and that is what they're trying to do.

I will certainly appreciate one of these turning up at Cathays in lieu of a 150

 

[ajay1071]

I'd heard that too but wasn't sure if that was still.going ahead. That will be a downgrade having a 231 replaced with 150/153s

I agree with you inpart, but I think the general /commuter passengers will not be so perturbed, I would have thought after working all day in the city they wouldn't care if a 150/153 turned up to get them home, I think they would be more concerned if no service turned up not what unit is provided.

 

[AdamWW]

I agree with you inpart, but I think the general /commuter passengers will not be so perturbed, I would have thought after working all day in the city they wouldn't care if a 150/153 turned up to get them home, I think they would be more concerned if no service turned up not what unit is provided.

From the odd conversations I've had with people about the new trains, I do not think you are correct there. This includes one elderly person who had given up on the railway, then had to make a journey, discovered the new trains, and has changed their mind.

And in the rush hour - even though it's somewhat attenuated compared to pre-Covid times - a 2 car 150 would certainly not be a welcome replacement for a 4 car 231.

 

[ajay1071]

From the odd conversations I've had with people about the new trains, I do not think you are correct there. This includes one elderly person who had given up on the railway, then had to make a journey, discovered the new trains, and has changed their mind.

And in the rush hour - even though it's somewhat attenuated compared to pre-Covid times - a 2 car 150 would certainly not be a welcome replacement for a 4 car 231.

I agree there will be some discontented passengers , but surely most ordinary passengers would be more interested in the service rather than what unit is provided. I reiterate passengers, I for one, are more interested in getting home of an evening, than if a 231 or 150/153 turns up. I'm sure if those passengers, who are discontented are informed of the reasons why the 231's have been transfered, as they were only temporary anyway, and that the new stock will be coming soon and will be permanent, that explanation will go along way to address their concerns /frustrations.

 

[Anonymous10]

I agree with you inpart, but I think the general /commuter passengers will not be so perturbed, I would have thought after working all day in the city they wouldn't care if a 150/153 turned up to get them home, I think they would be more concerned if no service turned up not what unit is provided.

That's only true if they can get on it and have access to facilities and those who use the level boarding will certainly notice.

 

[ajay1071]

That's only true if they can get on it and have access to facilities and those who use the level boarding will certainly notice.

I think you are being a bit pedantic there, I mean many passengers transfer to other connections without level boarding. I've witnessed many passengers, with pushchairs etc, on the Rhymney line who are heading for Barry Island who go on to transfer to a 150 without much, if any, issues or concerns.

 

[AdamWW]

I agree there will be some discontented passengers , but surely most ordinary passengers would be more interested in the service rather than what unit is provided. I reiterate passengers, I for one, are more interested in getting home of an evening, than if a 231 or 150/153 turns up. I'm sure if those passengers, who are discontented are informed of the reasons why the 231's have been transfered, as they were only temporary anyway, and that the new stock will be coming soon and will be permanent, that explanation will go along way to address their concerns /frustrations.

In my experience TfW isn't really interested in explaining much to passengers unless it's good news.

And given that they introduced the new trains with a bit of a fanfare, including leaflets pushed through letterboxes about how great they are, telling people that actually they were only temporary might not go down all that well.

I think you are being a bit pedantic there, I mean many passengers transfer to other connections without level boarding. I've witnessed many passengers, with pushchairs etc, on the Rhymney line who are heading for Barry Island who go on to transfer to a 150 without much, if any, issues or concerns.

And I've seen people finding it difficult and awkward getting themselves, their young children or pushchairs on and off a 150.

 

[ajay1071]

In my experience TfW isn't really interested in explaining much to passengers unless it's good news.

And given that they introduced the new trains with a bit of a fanfare, including leaflets pushed through letterboxes about how great they are, telling people that actually they were only temporary might not go down all that well.



And I've seen people finding it difficult and awkward getting themselves, their young children or pushchairs on and off a 150.

The vast majority of passengers board with no issue, how do you think the people you noticed, who are struggling, coped when all services on the valley lines were 142/143 or 150, they managed before so it's not to much of an ask for them to manage like they done for many years for a little longer until the new stock is up and running.

 

[positron]

The vast majority of passengers board with no issue, how do you think the people you noticed, who are struggling, coped when all services on the valley lines were 142/143 or 150, they managed before so it's not to much of an ask for them to manage like they done for many years for a little longer until the new stock is up and running.

I think you're being rather dismissive of the very real difference that level boarding has brought. I'm sure a sizable number of people just didn't use the trains before and now they can. Tearing that away with an oh dw you'll get your freedom back at X point in the future (given the delays that's an empty promise to most) isn't a small inconvenience.

That's not too say they won't do it, but people will absolutely notice.

 

[ajay1071]

I think you're being rather dismissive of the very real difference that level boarding has brought. I'm sure a sizable number of people just didn't use the trains before and now they can. Tearing that away with an oh dw you'll get your freedom back at X point in the future (given the delays that's an empty promise to most) isn't a small inconvenience.

That's not too say they won't do it, but people will absolutely notice.

It seems you are over thinking issues that are not going to prevent people travelling. Are you seriously telling us people will be deterred to travel by rail just because their is no level entrance/exit from a particular train. I reiterate the vast majority of passengers especially commuters will be pleased that their service has turned up not what unit is operating that said service. You do come across as a pessimist, a glass half empty bloke,

 

[Peter Sarf]

It seems you are over thinking issues that are not going to prevent people travelling. Are you seriously telling us people will be deterred to travel by rail just because their is no level entrance/exit from a particular train. I reiterate the vast majority of passengers especially commuters will be pleased that their service has turned up not what unit is operating that said service. You do come across as a pessimist, a glass half empty bloke,

I am sure it is not a big deal. But if reverting to non-level-boarding trains is not an issue at all then it begs the question - are the 231s and 756s that are capable of level boarding a waste of money ?.

My own answer is that the level boarding is a very nice to have and that removing that capability will draw more negative comments than the original introduction produced positive comments.

What is for sure is that TfW need to handle it *IF* they do decide to move the 231s to other routes.

 

[ajay1071]

I am sure it is not a big deal. But if reverting to non-level-boarding trains is not an issue at all then it begs the question - are the 231s and 756s that are capable of level boarding a waste of money ?.

My own answer is that the level boarding is a very nice to have and that removing that capability will draw more negative comments than the original introduction produced positive comments.

What is for sure is that TfW need to handle it *IF* they do decide to move the 231s to other routes.

You are correct reverting to none level boarding is not a big deal, especially considering it will only be a temporary measure untill the full implementation of the 756's. People managed before so a period of reverting back to a 150 for a temporary period is hardly a massive backward step. As I mentioned before most of the traveling public especially commuters are more concerned about a service being provided and punctuality not a particular unit. The passenger incident /accident rate of boarding a 150 or similar unit is very small near to insignificant, those that have occurred have tended to have been on late night trains with the involvement of intoxication such incidents, granted happen, but are very rare indeed. I wouldn't say that level boarding is a waste of money as it is useful for certain passengers and when the full introduction of the new fleet is implemented then step free will be the norm for the passengers, they will just have to remember when changing and traveling to destinations beyond the valley services that not all stock will be step free, alas they will once more have to revert to the old ways of step boarding.

 

[AdamWW]

My own answer is that the level boarding is a very nice to have and that removing that capability will draw more negative comments than the original introduction produced positive comments.

Quite - it's basic human nature (and I think fairly well established in studies) - people value something that they did have and was then taken away more than something they never had).

Are you seriously telling us people will be deterred to travel by rail just because their is no level entrance/exit from a particular train.

Some people will. A very small proportion overall I'm sure but it really is a factor for people with limited mobility, even if it's hard for someone with no trouble stepping up into a train to imagine. But I thought the original point was not that people would give up on the railway because of it, but that they would be unhappy to have their nice new trains taken away. And I think they will.

What is for sure is that TfW need to handle it *IF* they do decide to move the 231s to other routes.

I have so far seen no indication that TfW have any interest in "handling" such things.

I reiterate the vast majority of passengers especially commuters will be pleased that their service has turned up not what unit is operating that said service. You do come across as a pessimist, a glass half empty bloke,

If passengers are "pleased" that their train has actually run, rather than being able to take it for granted, something has already gone very wrong.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

If training hasnt started then we arent likely to see these in service for another 6 months at least.

I doubt that. They arent bothered about Maesteg/Ebbw Vale being downgraded from a 170 to 150/153s!

In fairness, Maesteg and Ebbw Vale have been served regularly with 170s and a good handful of 158/175s here and there, for about four years while Pontypridds have been stuck with nothing but single 150s. Six months or so with a 150 won’t be the end of the world.

If passengers are "pleased" that their train has actually run, rather than being able to take it for granted, something has already gone very wrong.

I must agree.

 

[ajay1071]

Quite - it's basic human nature (and I think fairly well established in studies) - people value something that they did have and was then taken away more than something they never had).



Some people will. A very small proportion overall I'm sure but it really is a factor for people with limited mobility, even if it's hard for someone with no trouble stepping up into a train to imagine. But I thought the original point was not that people would give up on the railway because of it, but that they would be unhappy to have their nice new trains taken away. And I think they will.



I have so far seen no indication that TfW have any interest in "handling" such things.



If passengers are "pleased" that their train has actually run, rather than being able to take it for granted, something has already gone very wrong.

I think it's time you started to look at the possitives and not focus on the negative aspects , you keep referring to the withdrawal of step free access as if it's going to be permanent we all know it's temporary until the allotted stock is up and running. One could argue what about the rail travellers on the Maesteg /Ebbw branches where the 231's are intended to ply, haven't they been denied the step free access, the people of restricted mobility, on those branches, would welcome that step free access or sample it at least so they know what benefit it will be when the new stock is up and running on all the valley lines. As they say you can't please all the people all of the time.

 

[Future]

Apparently the below is a 756 drag in for Monday + Tuesday. Apparently 66002 will be the loco dragging.

Realtime Trains | 6L22 1430 Dollands Moor Sdgs to Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs | 13/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 6L22 1430 departure from Dollands Moor Sdgs to Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs on 13/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q99 0404 Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings | 14/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q99 0404 departure from Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings on 14/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

 

[St. Paddy]

Apparently the below is a 756 drag in for Monday + Tuesday. Apparently 66002 will be the loco dragging.

Realtime Trains | 6L22 1430 Dollands Moor Sdgs to Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs | 13/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 6L22 1430 departure from Dollands Moor Sdgs to Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs on 13/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Realtime Trains | 5Q99 0404 Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings | 14/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 5Q99 0404 departure from Ripple Lane Exch Sdgs to Cardiff Canton Sidings on 14/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

Reported on segen as 756114/115

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Realtime Trains | 2J60 2048 Penarth to Pontypridd | 13/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 2J60 2048 departure from Penarth to Pontypridd on 13/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

A 231 has made it onto a Pontypridd allocation tonight; it's certain to be swapped at Central.

 

[pokemonsuper9]

Realtime Trains | 2J60 2048 Penarth to Pontypridd | 13/11/2023

Real-time train running information for 2J60 2048 departure from Penarth to Pontypridd on 13/11/2023. From Realtime Trains, an independent source of train running info for Great Britain.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

A 231 has made it onto a Pontypridd allocation tonight; it's certain to be swapped at Central.

Already showing as 150278 now.

 

[60159]

Reported on segen as 756114/115

Appears to have arrived in Cardiff.

 

[Bornin1980s]

I'm moving to Exeter next year. How near will any of these pass to Exeter?