Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[Lurcheroo]

A while ago I saw the following table with the purchase prices of the new TfW rolling stock. It was posted on Twitter, I saved the image but unfortunately I did not save who posted it so I can't credit anyone.

It was part of a FOI request I believe.

wow, the price of a 3-car 197 is closer to a 4-car 231 than I expected

And the 398s seems surprisingly cheap

When you consider a 3 car 197 has about 60 more seats as well, the value proposition is much stronger.

I’m not overly surprised with them being tram trains.

 

[Trainbike46]

It was part of a FOI request I believe.

When you consider a 3 car 197 has about 60 more seats as well, the value proposition is much stronger.

I’m not overly surprised with them being tram trains.

Class 231 (4-car):
170 seat
34 tip-up
188 standees

Class 197 (3-car):
174/186 seats (depending on whether there is 1st class)
8/8 tip-up
100/118 standees

So not sure where you got your 60 more seats from?
There's a surprising amount of tip-ups in the 231s though, which isn't ideal - I wonder if you could do a better design with fewer tip-ups and more real seats

 

[craigybagel]

I'm not sure about the terms (and cost limitations) of TfW's tender but CAF units are known to be cheaper than Stadler so it isn't surprising larger numbers of CAF units were ordered.

Don't forget the political angle as well. The fact the order was big enough to persuade CAF to build a factory in Wales must have been a big factor as well.

 

[Nick Ashwell]

A while ago I saw the following table with the purchase prices of the new TfW rolling stock. It was posted on Twitter, I saved the image but unfortunately I did not save who posted it so I can't credit anyone.

Surely thought the numbers in the top table for the 756 and 231 should be halved between them?

I am however genuinely shocked the special tools for the electrified variant are less than £3000 additional

 

[Lurcheroo]

Class 231 (4-car):
170 seat
34 tip-up
188 standees

Class 197 (3-car):
174/186 seats (depending on whether there is 1st class)
8/8 tip-up
100/118 standees

So not sure where you got your 60 more seats from?
There's a surprising amount of tip-ups in the 231s though, which isn't ideal - I wonder if you could do a better design with fewer tip-ups and more real seats

I'll be totally honest, even I can't work out where I got 60 seats from now. I must have mis-read something somehwere, thanks for the correction.
Possibly the 3 car 756's having 118 seats ? but even that would be 70 so god knows.

The tip up seats seem to be where the cycle storage spaces are (on both sides of the unit though) and near the door.

Don't forget the political angle as well. The fact the order was big enough to persuade CAF to build a factory in Wales must have been a big factor as well.

Always an interesting one. wonder if they could have convinced Stadler ?

 

[Peter Sarf]

wow, the price of a 3-car 197 is closer to a 4-car 231 than I expected

And the 398s seems surprisingly cheap

But the per unit cost of a 398 is not that much cheaper than a 2car 197.
I wonder how many seats each have though ?.

A while ago I saw the following table with the purchase prices of the new TfW rolling stock. It was posted on Twitter, I saved the image but unfortunately I did not save who posted it so I can't credit anyone.

I am struck with how little the Stadlers require spent in the form of special tools.

Can work out from the last table that an intermediate coach on a 231 or 756 costs around £750k - no power train.
Can work out from the last table that an intermediate coach on a 197 (including engines) is around £1,700k so maybe about £1m for the power train alone.
Would appear the extra cost for the tri-mode version (231 to 756) is about £1,550k per "power car".

Class 231 (4-car):
170 seat
34 tip-up
188 standees

Class 197 (3-car):
174/186 seats (depending on whether there is 1st class)
8/8 tip-up
100/118 standees

So not sure where you got your 60 more seats from?
There's a surprising amount of tip-ups in the 231s though, which isn't ideal - I wonder if you could do a better design with fewer tip-ups and more real seats

From those seating figures I can see the Stadlers are expected to hoover up lots of short(er) distance passengers. So I see it as NOT what the 197s can do but more that the 231s are for urban/commuting. A plus of the 197s is that units can be coupled to make longer services - flexibility. I am writing this from the viewpoint of someone who is maybe biased in favouer of Stadler Flirts.

I am really not sure why a busy rail network is being lumbered with units that can (er allegedly) do street running. It is not like the hopelessly under used Wimbledon to West Croydon line becoming very busy as a result of many more stops, trams and on street running. The demand in the valleys is surely already there ?.

 

[Bob Price]

However the whole idea of the trams is easy expansion. Connecting up Hirwain, the Splott line and out to Cregiu will be so much easier using tram trains with line of sight abilities. This is the start point of building the network and not the end point

 

[anthony263]

However the whole idea of the trams is easy expansion. Connecting up Hirwain, the Splott line and out to Cregiu will be so much easier using tram trains with line of sight abilities. This is the start point of building the network and not the end point

Considering a lot of the Infrastructure is still there I think Hirwaun is most likely to happen 1st

 

[Lurcheroo]

But the per unit cost of a 398 is not that much cheaper than a 2car 197.
I wonder how many seats each have though ?.

116 seats in a 2 car 197.
96 seats in a 398.

Here’s a link to TFW’s fleet guide.
Link:

https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2022-01/Fleet%20Access%20Specification_English_V1.pdf

 

[Peter Sarf]

116 seats in a 2 car 197.
96 seats in a 398.

Here’s a link to TFW’s fleet guide.
Link:

https://tfw.wales/sites/default/files/2022-01/Fleet%20Access%20Specification_English_V1.pdf

Thanks for that.
So
Class 398 costs £43,760 per seat.
Class 197 2car costs £41,022 per seat.
Oh dear the posher 197 which also has a loo is cheaper per seat than a 398 !.

 

[AdamWW]

Thanks for that.
So
Class 398 costs £43,760 per seat.
Class 197 2car costs £41,022 per seat.
Oh dear the posher 197 which also has a loo is cheaper per seat than a 398 !.

Though maybe the 398s have more standing capacity?

Also might have come out differently if they'd ordered more than twice as many 398s as 197s rather than the other way round.

However the whole idea of the trams is easy expansion. Connecting up Hirwain, the Splott line and out to Cregiu will be so much easier using tram trains with line of sight abilities. This is the start point of building the network and not the end point

For a start it presumably means that new lines would actually be allowed to have level crossings.

Also perhaps having the Bay Line as line of sight will mean they have somewhere to stuff trains when the timetable goes to pieces as inevitably on occasion it will. They do seem to be building quite long platforms.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Oh dear the posher 197 which also has a loo is cheaper per seat than a 398 !.

Not sure the 197’s are considered posher. They’re built by CAF and let me tell you, they really are not ‘posh’. They’re build quality is very questionable in many ways.
I don’t sign the 398’s or been anywhere near them, but being built by Stadler, are likely of much higher quality.
The 197’s being cheaper per seat is likely why we have 77 of them being delivered to try and maximise the seats in longer distance routes.

Though maybe the 398s have more standing capacity?

Also might have come out differently if they'd ordered more than twice as many 398s as 197s rather than the other way round.

I don’t believe they do. Whilst the numbers I’ve seen are definitely not accurate the 197’s have a fair bit more standing space it seems.

According to Wikipedia (how ever reliable that is) a 2 car 197 is 48 metres and the 398 is 40 metres long.

I note that Wikipedia says the 398’s have 126 seats but the TFW fleet guide says 96. Hmmm …

 

[Bob Price]

Sorry but this is chalk and cheese. It's like comparing a tube train with an IET. The 398's are designed to shift a lot of people, relatively short distances in as short a time as possible. The 197's are designed as multiple trip units which can be used long distance and medium distance with much larger distance between stops.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Sorry but this is chalk and cheese. It's like comparing a tube train with an IET. The 398's are designed to shift a lot of people, relatively short distances in as short a time as possible. The 197's are designed as multiple trip units which can be used long distance and medium distance with much larger distance between stops.

I do agree. Their purpose is totally different.
You wouldn’t have the 398’s doing Camarthen to Manchester !

 

[Trainbike46]

Sorry but this is chalk and cheese. It's like comparing a tube train with an IET. The 398's are designed to shift a lot of people, relatively short distances in as short a time as possible. The 197's are designed as multiple trip units which can be used long distance and medium distance with much larger distance between stops.

absolutely!

The same is true to a lesser extent of the 231s/756s vs the 197s, as is obvious from their relative seating and standing capacities

 

[Lurcheroo]

absolutely!

The same is true to a lesser extent of the 231s/756s vs the 197s, as is obvious from their relative seating and standing capacities

I think the bigger thing with the FLIRTS is the flexibility in the platform at time of ordering.
It really seems like it can be made to do anything.

 

[Trainbike46]

I think the bigger thing with the FLIRTS is the flexibility in the platform at time of ordering.
It really seems like it can be made to do anything.

FLIRTs as a whole are very flexible - the 231 and 756 are an implementation focused on shifting a lot of people short distances quickly (though not taking this as far as the 398s), hence the high number of standing places and tip-up seats, as well as the extra doors relative to the 755 and 745 FLIRTs - which have a more regional train and IC set-up

 

[31160]

Is there going to be a shake up of diagrams with the TT change

 

[Bikeman78]

Is there going to be a shake up of diagrams with the TT change

Very much so. Trains from Rhymney and Bargoed go to Barry Island and Bridgend in the new timetable. There will be some 150s in the mix because there aren't enough 231s to cover everything.

 

[Western 52]

Very much so. Trains from Rhymney and Bargoed go to Barry Island and Bridgend in the new timetable. There will be some 150s in the mix because there aren't enough 231s to cover everything.

Does a 231 fit in the bay platform at Bridgend, or will they have to use the down platform?

 

[Bikeman78]

Does a 231 fit in the bay platform at Bridgend, or will they have to use the down platform?

They are 80m long which is the same as a pair of 150s so they should be fine. Are they route cleared though? I'm not aware of one having been there.

 

[BillStampy]

They are 80m long which is the same as a pair of 150s so they should be fine. Are they route cleared though? I'm not aware of one having been there.

Not cleared for Bridgend, they're clear for Barry, Penarth, Rhymney, Merthyr and Treherbert. Aberdare, Coryton and Bridgend are not. That's what I'm aware of atleast.

They are 80m long which is the same as a pair of 150s so they should be fine. Are they route cleared though? I'm not aware of one having been there.

The trains themselves are apparently 80.7m long, so they would just about fit presumably.

 

[Bikeman78]

Not cleared for Bridgend, they're clear for Barry, Penarth, Rhymney, Merthyr and Treherbert. Aberdare, Coryton and Bridgend are not. That's what I'm aware of atleast.

The four Bridgend diagrams will be class 150s then. I'd imagine the class 231s will be cleared at some point because ultimately the Bridgend trains will be class 756s.

 

[craigybagel]

A bigger issue with Bridgend is that it's Mainline crews and not Valleys who work those services west of Cardiff Central - and they aren't as far advanced with traction training (I'm not sure if any have been trained on 231s yet).

 

[Anonymous10]

A bigger issue with Bridgend is that it's Mainline crews and not Valleys who work those services west of Cardiff Central - and they aren't as far advanced with traction training (I'm not sure if any have been trained on 231s yet).

I suppose it could be used to maintaine 150 competence though?

 

[BillStampy]

A bigger issue with Bridgend is that it's Mainline crews and not Valleys who work those services west of Cardiff Central - and they aren't as far advanced with traction training (I'm not sure if any have been trained on 231s yet).

Due to the 1 test of the 231s on Maesteg last year, they have gone to Bridgend once before, albeit via the mainline. The 231s were originally meant to head for Maesteg, not sure if that's the plan anymore.

 

[Bob Price]

Yes it is. 756's for Rhymney and VOG, 398's for Pontypridd valley lines and 231's for Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and Cheltenhams

 

[AdamWW]

The four Bridgend diagrams will be class 150s then. I'd imagine the class 231s will be cleared at some point because ultimately the Bridgend trains will be class 756s.

TfW say: (https://tfw.wales/projects/metro/south-wales-metro/june-2024/faq)

• Our new Stadler 231 trains will begin to travel to Barry and Barry Island from June 2024. These trains were introduced to the Rhymney line in 2023. They have universal access toilets on board and have 4 carriages. You can find out more about these trains here.
  The 231s will work alongside our Class 150 diesel trains, which will continue to be used on the Barry and Barry Island lines until all our new trains have been introduced in 2025.
  Following the completion of key infrastructure works on the Rhymney line, the brand-new Stadler FLIRT trains will begin to travel to Bridgend from 2025. Until then, our Class 150 diesel trains will continue to travel on the line

 

[craigybagel]

I suppose it could be used to maintaine 150 competence though?

Still plenty of other services for both Mainline and Valleys crews on 150s , no need yet for any specific services to help there.

Due to the 1 test of the 231s on Maesteg last year, they have gone to Bridgend once before, albeit via the mainline. The 231s were originally meant to head for Maesteg, not sure if that's the plan anymore.

Yes it is. 756's for Rhymney and VOG, 398's for Pontypridd valley lines and 231's for Ebbw Vale, Maesteg and Cheltenhams

Indeed, Mainline crews will definitely need training on Flirts at some point, and from what I remember if you sign 231s it's only a 1 day conversion course to do 756s and Cardiff Mainline will need to sign both eventually. I just don't believe a whole lot of training has taken place yet on the Mainline side. One off tests are one thing, but an hourly service is a whole different matter.

I'm also not sure what the plan is for Carmarthen depot. At present they have a small amount of work on VOG services since they sign the route and 150s anyway. I suspect they'll not bother training them on Flirts and they'll just rely on Route Refresh days days instead to keep competent on the route, but I've not spoken to anyone from down there lately to find out.

 

[Pat Figg]

Not cleared for Bridgend, they're clear for Barry, Penarth, Rhymney, Merthyr and Treherbert. Aberdare, Coryton and Bridgend are not. That's what I'm aware of atleast.


The trains themselves are apparently 80.7m long, so they would just about fit presumably.

Will they be cleared for Aberdare, Coryton and Bridgend eventually, or is there a reason that can't or won't happen? I don't know much about this sort of thing!