Transport for Wales Class 231 / 756 FLIRTs

[SuperLuke2334]

Will they be cleared for Aberdare, Coryton and Bridgend eventually, or is there a reason that can't or won't happen? I don't know much about this sort of thing!

Coryton and Bridgend will have to be as they'll be in regular service on these lines. Aberdare will probably be cleared once the platform extensions are complete.

 

[BillStampy]

Coryton and Bridgend will have to be as they'll be in regular service on these lines. Aberdare will probably be cleared once the platform extensions are complete.

These will be switched to 756s and 398s following finishing touches to electrification though, better to train some crew on the 231s first though seeing how the 231s and 756s are nearly identical! Minus their power of course.

 

[Bornin1980s]

So, are all 231 routes shared with 150s?

 

[AdamWW]

So, are all 231 routes shared with 150s?

That's what TfW are saying at the moment:

https://tfw.wales/projects/metro/south-wales-metro/june-2024/faq

• Our new Stadler 231 trains will begin to travel to Barry and Barry Island from June 2024. These trains were introduced to the Rhymney line in 2023. They have universal access toilets on board and have 4 carriages. You can find out more about these trains here.
  The 231s will work alongside our Class 150 diesel trains, which will continue to be used on the Barry and Barry Island lines until all our new trains have been introduced in 2025.
  Following the completion of key infrastructure works on the Rhymney line, the brand-new Stadler FLIRT trains will begin to travel to Bridgend from 2025. Until then, our Class 150 diesel trains will continue to travel on the line.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

Trains from Cathays to Cardiff Central are going

from **06, **16, **26, **36, **46, **56

to **02, **08, **32, **38

suffered years of buses and been promised great improvements, for that I’m so glad I’m leaving Wales next month.

 

[Peter Sarf]

Basically in

Trains from Cathays to Cardiff Central are going

from **06, **16, **26, **36, **46, **56

to **02, **08, **32, **38

suffered years of buses and been promised great improvements, for that I’m so glad I’m leaving Wales next month.

In my book that is a regular ten minute service frequency turned into one more or less every 30 minutes !. Lets be charitable and say it WAS a turn up and go service where you wait a maximum of ten minutes that has now become one where you risk waiting 24 minutes.

Busses are now possibly better ?.

Of course in the end you will have a rip roaring service using 398s from Cathays down to the Bay and maybe beyond if that is any use (rhetorical question).

Am I right in thinking the 231s on the routes through Queen Street will eventually switch to 756s for the non TAM lines (Rhymney ?) ?.

 

[PaulHarding150]

Busses are now possibly better ?.

or for most people walking is better.

Of course in the end you will have a rip roaring service using 398s from Cathays down to the Bay …

10/10. Yes exactly focus on the big picture.

 

[Dai Corner]

Of course in the end you will have a rip roaring service using 398s from Cathays down to the Bay and maybe beyond if that is any use (rhetorical question).

10/10. Yes exactly focus on the big picture.

Very handy for politicians and civil servants travelling between the Senedd in the Bay and the Government offices in Cathays.

 

[Peter Sarf]

or for most people walking is better.


10/10. Yes exactly focus on the big picture.

Yes but.....

Very handy for politicians and civil servants travelling between the Senedd in the Bay and the Government offices in Cathays.

Indeed - Cardiff Central is the main station - not that the busses and coaches go there any more of course.

The obsession with eventually being able to link the Valleys with the Bay and other down town areas of Cardiff via street running means 231s and 756s are no good for those routes but those routes really need to serve Cardiff centre well enough as a priority.

 

[Richard Scott]

Yes but.....

Indeed - Cardiff Central is the main station - not that the busses and coaches go there any more of course.

The obsession with eventually being able to link the Valleys with the Bay and other down town areas of Cardiff via street running means 231s and 756s are no good for those routes but those routes really need to serve Cardiff centre well enough as a priority.

I don't understand the obsession with the Bay line; it's not the Centre of the Universe. Is it a convenient way of increasing services on the Valley Lines without overloading Central Station?

 

[Dai Corner]

I don't understand the obsession with the Bay line; it's not the Centre of the Universe. Is it a convenient way of increasing services on the Valley Lines without overloading Central Station?

A handy place with line of sight operation instead of conventional signalling to shove 398s when it goes a bit pear-shaped around Queen Street?

 

[Peter Sarf]

I don't understand the obsession with the Bay line; it's not the Centre of the Universe. Is it a convenient way of increasing services on the Valley Lines without overloading Central Station?

I think that is it really. To increase rail frequency from all the valleys and use more Flirts (231 & 756) required a rather more ambitious scheme to sort out the junction North of Queen Street and, more importantly, more platforms at Cardiff Central - probably with some terminating there and some extending across the river to the City line and Penarth/Barry, not forgetting Bridgend.

Instead an attempt to bring the run down (more coastal) areas South side of Cardiff into the frame.

A handy place with line of sight operation instead of conventional signalling to shove 398s when it goes a bit pear-shaped around Queen Street?

Its a point !. Going to be a worry sifting the Flirts (231 & 756) from the Tram-Trains (398) of course.

I am also not completely convinced why the TAM lines do not need loos but Rhymney etc do justify train toilets.

---

Before I forget. What is the latest regarding use of the 756s ?.
That is both interim and long term.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think that is it really. To increase rail frequency from all the valleys and use more Flirts (231 & 756) required a rather more ambitious scheme to sort out the junction North of Queen Street and, more importantly, more platforms at Cardiff Central - probably with some terminating there and some extending across the river to the City line and Penarth/Barry, not forgetting Bridgend.

Surely the frequency of services through the junction (and bridge) north of Cardiff Queen Street would be the same regardless of whether the trains are going to Cardiff Central or Cardiff Bay?

I am also not completely convinced why the TAM lines do not need loos but Rhymney etc do justify train toilets.

I'm not convinced either. In my view both the TAM lines (particularly Aberdare given the potential for extension is greater there) and Rhymney should have toilets - the odd one is the Coryton branch - why that is planned to be paired with Barry/Bridgend (and therefore get FLIRTs) while the much longer TAM runs are expected to be paired with Cardiff Bay (and therefore stuck with the toiletless tram-trains) makes no sense from a passenger's point of view. My only guess is that they wanted to put the tram depot in Taffs Well and therefore the 398s have to be booked through there to avoid ECS runs to the depot.

 

[AdamWW]

I'm not convinced either. In my view both the TAM lines (particularly Aberdare given the potential for extension is greater there) and Rhymney should have toilets - the odd one is the Coryton branch - why that is planned to be paired with Barry/Bridgend (and therefore get FLIRTs) while the much longer TAM runs are expected to be paired with Cardiff Bay (and therefore stuck with the toiletless tram-trains) makes no sense from a passenger's point of view. My only guess is that they wanted to put the tram depot in Taffs Well and therefore the 398s have to be booked through there to avoid ECS runs to the depot.

Coryton trains will run to Penarth from the upcoming timetable, in diagrams that run Coryton-Penarth-Caerphilly-Penarth-Coryton and repeat.*

Is that going to change in due course?

* With (last time I looked on RTT) one missing bit during the day where a train from Penarth goes out of service at Cardiff instead of heading to Caerphilly, then it or a replacement comes into service at Cardiff in time to pick up on the Cardiff to Coryton leg. I can only speculate on the reason for that.

Edited to remove content posted in wrong thread.

 

[Bikeman78]

Coryton trains will run to Penarth from the upcoming timetable, in diagrams that run Coryton-Penarth-Caerphilly-Penarth-Coryton and repeat.*

Is that going to change in due course?

* With (last time I looked on RTT) one missing bit during the day where a train from Penarth goes out of service at Cardiff instead of heading to Caerphilly, then it or a replacement comes into service at Cardiff in time to pick up on the Cardiff to Coryton leg. I can only speculate on the reason for that.

Edited to remove content posted in wrong thread.

As I understand it, all of Coryton, Caerphilly, Baraged and Rhymney to Penarth, Barry Island and Bridgend are meant to be class 756 eventually.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

As I understand it, all of Coryton, Caerphilly, Baraged and Rhymney to Penarth, Barry Island and Bridgend are meant to be class 756 eventually.

I believe that the final service pattern is proposed to look like:

Using 756s:
2tph Rhymney to Bridgend
2tph Bargoed to Barry Island
2tph Caerphilly to Penarth
2tph Coryton to Penarth

Using 398s:
2tph Aberdare to Cardiff Bay via Cathays
2tph Aberdare to Cardiff Central via Fairwater
2tph Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff Bay via Cathays
2tph Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff Central via Cathays
2tph Treherbert to Cardiff Bay via Cathays
2tph Treherbert to Cardiff Central via Cathays

Using 231s: (not technically Metro but included as 231s work Metro routes at present)
1tph Cheltenham to Cardiff Central
1tph Ebbw Vale Town to Maesteg

and then I believe Ebbw Vale Newport is set to continue utilising a single 197/0.

 

[Russel]

How far away are we from the 231's taking over the Cheltenham route?

 

[Lurcheroo]

How far away are we from the 231's taking over the Cheltenham route?

Quite away I’d have thought. Needs enough 756’s into service to release 231’s to work those services. At present there’s no 756’s at all in service and doesn’t seem to be like it will be soon either.

 

[craigybagel]

How far away are we from the 231's taking over the Cheltenham route?

Quite away I’d have thought. Needs enough 756’s into service to release 231’s to work those services. At present there’s no 756’s at all in service and doesn’t seem to be like it will be soon either.

Also requires a degree of crew training, since it's completely different crews who work the Cheltenham services and not the current Rhymney Valley crews, the same issue I mentioned above with the VOG.

 

[Lurcheroo]

Also requires a degree of crew training, since it's completely different crews who work the Cheltenham services and not the current Rhymney Valley crews, the same issue I mentioned above with the VOG.

Ahh right ! Well If that’s not even started yet Then it could be 6 months at least I’d guess ?

 

[craigybagel]

Ahh right ! Well If that’s not even started yet Then it could be 6 months at least I’d guess ?

To be fair, they may well have started training, I'm a bit out of the loop with Cardiff - but it's certainly a complication. There's been a big focus there on 67 and 197 training, I don't know if they've been able to start 231s yet or not.

 

[Lurcheroo]

To be fair, they may well have started training, I'm a bit out of the loop with Cardiff - but it's certainly a complication. There's been a big focus there on 67 and 197 training, I don't know if they've been able to start 231s yet or not.

Oh right fair enough ! I guess we will see how things progress then

 

[Bikeman78]

I believe that the final service pattern is proposed to look like:

Using 756s:
2tph Rhymney to Bridgend
2tph Bargoed to Barry Island
2tph Caerphilly to Penarth
2tph Coryton to Penarth

Using 398s:
2tph Aberdare to Cardiff Bay via Cathays
2tph Aberdare to Cardiff Central via Fairwater
2tph Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff Bay via Cathays
2tph Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff Central via Cathays
2tph Treherbert to Cardiff Bay via Cathays
2tph Treherbert to Cardiff Central via Cathays

Using 231s: (not technically Metro but included as 231s work Metro routes at present)
1tph Cheltenham to Cardiff Central
1tph Ebbw Vale Town to Maesteg

and then I believe Ebbw Vale Newport is set to continue utilising a single 197/0.

That agrees with my understanding of the situation. However, the above only requires seven of the 11 class 231s. I'd like to think they could manage nine out of 11 and cover the two Newport to Ebbw Vale diagrams as well.

Quite away I’d have thought. Needs enough 756’s into service to release 231’s to work those services. At present there’s no 756’s at all in service and doesn’t seem to be like it will be soon either.

Another problem is that the OHL is not live to Coryton or Rhymney so 756s cannot work those lines. It is possible that 756s could free up 150s off the routes through Pontypridd to work the Rhymney line but I doubt TfW would want the negative feedback resulting from replacing 231s with 150s.

 

[AdamWW]

I believe that the final service pattern is proposed to look like:

Using 756s:
2tph Rhymney to Bridgend
2tph Bargoed to Barry Island
2tph Caerphilly to Penarth
2tph Coryton to Penarth

Using 398s:
2tph Aberdare to Cardiff Bay via Cathays
2tph Aberdare to Cardiff Central via Fairwater
2tph Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff Bay via Cathays
2tph Merthyr Tydfil to Cardiff Central via Cathays
2tph Treherbert to Cardiff Bay via Cathays
2tph Treherbert to Cardiff Central via Cathays

Using 231s: (not technically Metro but included as 231s work Metro routes at present)
1tph Cheltenham to Cardiff Central
1tph Ebbw Vale Town to Maesteg

and then I believe Ebbw Vale Newport is set to continue utilising a single 197/0.

That agrees with my understanding of the situation. However, the above only requires seven of the 11 class 231s. I'd like to think they could manage nine out of 11 and cover the two

Have I mis-remembered that not so long ago they were promising 4 trains an hour to Rhymney? Or have they reduced their ambitions (which would of course explain the "spare" 231s)?

Another problem is that the OHL is not live to Coryton or Rhymney so 756s cannot work those lines.

Could they manage on diesel with a re-fuelling stop during the day?

I doubt TfW would want the negative feedback resulting from replacing 231s with 150s.

Well that's what anyone regularly travelling to Penarth is going to get from Monday, so far as I know. Or possibly 153x2s, I suppose.

I could be a bit unkind and suggest that I haven't seen much evidence that negative publicity bothers TfW...

 

[Cambrian359]

Another problem is that the OHL is not live to Coryton or Rhymney so 756s cannot work those lines. It is possible that 756s could free up 150s off the routes through Pontypridd to work the Rhymney line but I doubt TfW would want the negative feedback resulting from replacing 231s with 150s.

Given the hammering they seem to get on every social media post I don’t think a little more negativity would make much difference!

 

[BillStampy]

Another problem is that the OHL is not live to Coryton or Rhymney so 756s cannot work those lines. It is possible that 756s could free up 150s off the routes through Pontypridd to work the Rhymney line but I doubt TfW would want the negative feedback resulting from replacing 231s with 150s.

I believe I saw something recently about Penarth being switched back to 150s for a short while in a video, it was a few months back so I've sort of forgotten where I saw it but it does seem to be the plan. I believe the 756s can run on other powers for parts of the journey. With the fact that TfW will have to eventually focus on getting 231s onto their intended routes (supposedly, frees up 197s for elsewhere), they'll have to unfortunately switch back to 150s for a short period of time.. I'm sure they'll be able to bear the extra critiscism on their social media...

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I doubt TfW would want the negative feedback resulting from replacing 231s with 150s.

I believe I saw something recently about Penarth being switched back to 150s for a short while in a video, it was a few months back so I've sort of forgotten where I saw it but it does seem to be the plan.

It’s largely down to 231s working 756 routes when there was, of course, far fewer 231s ordered than 756s, because the 231s are intended for former 170 routes of which only seven to nine are needed at once.

Therefore, with the 756s only working TAM for now, and apparently not ready to work Rhymney/Coryton lines to Barry/Bridgend/Penarth, covering them has to be done by both 231s AND 150s. As Penarth is now on the Coryton and Caerphilly routes, these are the shortest and therefore considered to be the least poor for 150 operation, compared to Rhymney/Bargoed to Barry Island. And it makes double sense seeing as Coryton isn’t FLIRT cleared yet.

And then of course Bridgend via Rhoose can’t take FLIRTS yet either, and that’s the only reason those services will be self contained 150 diagrams for now.

 

[Bikeman78]

Have I mis-remembered that not so long ago they were promising 4 trains an hour to Rhymney? Or have they reduced their ambitions (which would of course explain the "spare" 231s)?

Could they manage on diesel with a re-fuelling stop during the day?

Well that's what anyone regularly travelling to Penarth is going to get from Monday, so far as I know. Or possibly 153x2s, I suppose.

I could be a bit unkind and suggest that I haven't seen much evidence that negative publicity bothers TfW...

Four trains per hour to Bargoed, two to Rhymney. My comments on 231 diagrams were aimed at their eventual use on the mainline.

There is only one diesel engine on a 756, compared with four on a 231. They are not designed to run any great distance on diesel.

Cardiff to Penarth is only 15 minutes. To be honest, it makes sense to have two car trains on the lighter loaded Penarth trains and run four car trains to Barry Island.

 

[Cardiff123]

Cardiff to Penarth is only 15 minutes. To be honest, it makes sense to have two car trains on the lighter loaded Penarth trains and run four car trains to Barry Island.

There was confected outrage in a local Penarth Facebook group last week from a Conservative councillor stating it was outrageous that "Labour-run TfW" were short changing Penarth passengers and treating them as second class citizens by taking away their new trains...........

Meanwhile today it's now all 231s to Barry Island, 1 x 150 to Bridgend via VoG, and 2 x 153s on the new Sunday Penarth - Queen Street shuttle. Outrageous indeed.

 

[BillStampy]

There was confected outrage in a local Penarth Facebook group last week from a Conservative councillor stating it was outrageous that "Labour-run TfW" were short changing Penarth passengers and treating them as second class citizens by taking away their new trains...........

Meanwhile today it's now all 231s to Barry Island, 1 x 150 to Bridgend via VoG, and 2 x 153s on the new Sunday Penarth - Queen Street shuttle. Outrageous indeed.

To be fair, Bikeman has a fair point. As much as Penarth is a well used route, it's very short compared to Barry and more. Preferably you'd put the Barry's as 231s as I believe they fill up more. I'm not 100% sure on this but it'd make more sense.