Transport spending by councils

[TheManOnThe172]

An article about financial pressures on bus services in Dorset included data on spending by the County Council that sets their cost of public bus subsidies in context:

	£m pa​
Public subsidised services	1.2​	2%​
School Transport - main	10​	20%​
School Transport - additional needs	13​	26%​
Adult Services Transport	26​	52%​
Total	50.2​	100%​

I was really surprised how large the Additional Needs and Adult Services costs were. If these figures are anything like correct, two things strike me:

* The prospects for subsidised public services look grim: while there is a vague Statutory Duty to provide "appropriate" public transport, authorities can plead shortage of funds to provide a very thin service (as long as it is spread equally: thus the enthusiasm for DRT). I know that School Transport has a much clearer Statutory requirement, and suspect that the same applies to Adult Services. So as transport costs rise faster than government funding to councils, the pressure to reduce public services will be immense.

* The need to take a "Total Transport" approach to rural areas is very clear. School buses have always provided middle-of-the-day public services at relatively little extra cost (but are at risk where authorities' accounting practices make them look more expensive by sharing out the fixed costs across both school and public journeys). The big scope must be in Adult Services transport. I believe that in Lincolnshire, they provide much of their Adult Services transport with their DRT vehicles, with Adult Services funding the heavy end of the fixed costs of the vehicles.

Does anyone have insight into whether the Dorset figures are typical of other areas? And are there other areas beyond Lincolnshire where Adult Services and/or Additional Needs transport is being provided in publicly-funded vehicles (which are potentially available for Public Transport use too) rather than just by contracting for individual taxi trips?

 

[markymark2000]

The need to take a "Total Transport" approach to rural areas is very clear. School buses have always provided middle-of-the-day public services at relatively little extra cost

A recent situation in Conwy. Llew Jones cancelled their T19 because it wasn't viable and the council refused to pay up more money per pupil for the students who were being carried. Conwy council then put the statutory schools out to tender. Llew Jones put in an alternative bid which covered both of the school duties but did so as part of the T19 service AND kept the T19 going during the off peak (the bid based off just asking for the higher amount per pupil carried that they had already been asking for). Conwy Council didn't opt for keeping the schools as part of the T19, they awarded the tenders as closed door services separately. Llew Jones did some calculations and found that their bid was £30,000 per year cheaper and would have kept the local bus service going for normal passengers.


Another story that I know of is that 1 college in Wales tried to demand that a second bus runs, completely duplicating the local service bus, just so that their students can have their own bus. The operator is good enough to ignore them and provides just the service bus. Students don't care, they are all happy to get to college. This is a rural route so without the funding from the college, the local bus wouldn't exist, it's simple as that but the college didn't see it as that. They saw it as they want a dedicated bus for their students. God forbid their students get wrapped up with commoners, that would be a disaster.


I've found tens, probably hundreds of school buses, carrying thousands of students each year, who could instead be on the local bus network rather than closed door dedicated school buses. It's amazing to think that the school and local bus service budget could be combined and we could significantly improve local bus networks while simultaneously providing school transport but sadly, too many councils (and the Welsh Government) have the view that schools and service must not mix.

The word 'Safeguarding' is often used. I've always found it quite funny that they want to 'safeguard' young people by having them on closed door, dedicated school buses but these same young people then roam the streets and use normal local buses at weekends and school holidays. As a kid, I always used the public buses to get to and from school and I had no issues.

 

[Simon75]

I Might be wrong but School services you have pay for, yet special needs transport is free ?

 

[A0wen]

An article about financial pressures on bus services in Dorset included data on spending by the County Council that sets their cost of public bus subsidies in context:

	£m pa​
Public subsidised services	1.2​	2%​
School Transport - main	10​	20%​
School Transport - additional needs	13​	26%​
Adult Services Transport	26​	52%​
Total	50.2​	100%​

I was really surprised how large the Additional Needs and Adult Services costs were. If these figures are anything like correct, two things strike me:

* The prospects for subsidised public services look grim: while there is a vague Statutory Duty to provide "appropriate" public transport, authorities can plead shortage of funds to provide a very thin service (as long as it is spread equally: thus the enthusiasm for DRT). I know that School Transport has a much clearer Statutory requirement, and suspect that the same applies to Adult Services. So as transport costs rise faster than government funding to councils, the pressure to reduce public services will be immense.

* The need to take a "Total Transport" approach to rural areas is very clear. School buses have always provided middle-of-the-day public services at relatively little extra cost (but are at risk where authorities' accounting practices make them look more expensive by sharing out the fixed costs across both school and public journeys). The big scope must be in Adult Services transport. I believe that in Lincolnshire, they provide much of their Adult Services transport with their DRT vehicles, with Adult Services funding the heavy end of the fixed costs of the vehicles.

Does anyone have insight into whether the Dorset figures are typical of other areas? And are there other areas beyond Lincolnshire where Adult Services and/or Additional Needs transport is being provided in publicly-funded vehicles (which are potentially available for Public Transport use too) rather than just by contracting for individual taxi trips?

Slightly misleading to say it's all buses. Much of the provision for Schools Transport - additional needs and Adult Services Transport will be covered by taxis.

 

[A0wen]

I've found tens, probably hundreds of school buses, carrying thousands of students each year, who could instead be on the local bus network rather than closed door dedicated school buses. It's amazing to think that the school and local bus service budget could be combined and we could significantly improve local bus networks while simultaneously providing school transport but sadly, too many councils (and the Welsh Government) have the view that schools and service must not mix.

The word 'Safeguarding' is often used. I've always found it quite funny that they want to 'safeguard' young people by having them on closed door, dedicated school buses (with drivers all having enhanced DBS checks and in some cases that DBS check has to be done by each council, councils won't accept other councils 'school badge') but these same young people then roam the streets and use normal local buses at weekends and school holidays. As a kid, I always used the public buses to get to and from school and I had no issues.

Bit in bold - that's because a DBS clearance is for the requesting organisation not the individual.

I've served as a school governor and a non school role which also required a DBS check and both organisations had to request their own check.

Some details here https://www.dbschecks.org.uk/can-yo...erent-jobs-a-guide-to-the-dbs-update-service/

There is, however a practical side to this - DBS checks aren't 'dynamic' - in other words the check is only correct on the date of the check being issued. So in theory a DBS check can be issued on the 1st of the month and 30 days later you can be arrested and prosecuted for an offence which would show up, but the DBS certificate you hold won't show that. It's why most public sector bodies where people work with children will have a rolling programe of re-submitting a DBS check on existing employees at fixed points. 3 years is often cited as an appropriate time window.

With the example above - if it's a 3rd party company, I would expect the council's contract to stipulate the operator must have staff who have an up to date DBS check and that must be audited. The council wouldn't be requesting the DBS check as they aren't the employer.

 

[TheManOnThe172]

Government rules say:

Children of compulsory school age qualify for free school transport if they go to their nearest suitable school and any of the following apply:

• the school is more than 2 miles away and the child is under 8
• the school is more than 3 miles away and the child is 8 or over
• there’s no safe walking route between their home and school
• they cannot walk there because of their special educational needs or disabilities or a mobility problem

And "nearest suitable school" is defined (by Bucks County Council, which is the first I found) as:
the nearest school with places available that provides education appropriate to the age, ability and aptitude of the child and any SEND they may have.

Note that "nearest suitable school" is not defined as needing to match any faith requirements. It appears that this was changed in 2014.

 

[markymark2000]

Bit in bold - that's because a DBS clearance is for the requesting organisation not the individual.

I've served as a school governor and a non school role which also required a DBS check and both organisations had to request their own check.

Some details here https://www.dbschecks.org.uk/can-yo...erent-jobs-a-guide-to-the-dbs-update-service/

There is, however a practical side to this - DBS checks aren't 'dynamic' - in other words the check is only correct on the date of the check being issued. So in theory a DBS check can be issued on the 1st of the month and 30 days later you can be arrested and prosecuted for an offence which would show up, but the DBS certificate you hold won't show that. It's why most public sector bodies where people work with children will have a rolling programe of re-submitting a DBS check on existing employees at fixed points. 3 years is often cited as an appropriate time window.

With the example above - if it's a 3rd party company, I would expect the council's contract to stipulate the operator must have staff who have an up to date DBS check and that must be audited. The council wouldn't be requesting the DBS check as they aren't the employer.

Thank you for your explanation, it was helpful. I've deleted that part of the post now as seeing the process you have explained, that section makes no sense as part of the wider post.

 

[Sealink]

An article about financial pressures on bus services in Dorset included data on spending by the County Council that sets their cost of public bus subsidies in context:

	£m pa​
Public subsidised services	1.2​	2%​
School Transport - main	10​	20%​
School Transport - additional needs	13​	26%​
Adult Services Transport	26​	52%​
Total	50.2​	100%​

I was really surprised how large the Additional Needs and Adult Services costs were. If these figures are anything like correct, two things strike me:

* The prospects for subsidised public services look grim: while there is a vague Statutory Duty to provide "appropriate" public transport, authorities can plead shortage of funds to provide a very thin service (as long as it is spread equally: thus the enthusiasm for DRT). I know that School Transport has a much clearer Statutory requirement, and suspect that the same applies to Adult Services. So as transport costs rise faster than government funding to councils, the pressure to reduce public services will be immense.

* The need to take a "Total Transport" approach to rural areas is very clear. School buses have always provided middle-of-the-day public services at relatively little extra cost (but are at risk where authorities' accounting practices make them look more expensive by sharing out the fixed costs across both school and public journeys). The big scope must be in Adult Services transport. I believe that in Lincolnshire, they provide much of their Adult Services transport with their DRT vehicles, with Adult Services funding the heavy end of the fixed costs of the vehicles.

Does anyone have insight into whether the Dorset figures are typical of other areas? And are there other areas beyond Lincolnshire where Adult Services and/or Additional Needs transport is being provided in publicly-funded vehicles (which are potentially available for Public Transport use too) rather than just by contracting for individual taxi trips?

I look across the border to Devon with envy. The council there publishes timetables (the East Devon one is about 96 pages) and have a ticket for about £10 a day for unlimited travel across nearly all bus operators in Devon.

Devon Council subsidise a Lyme Regis to Seaton bus (which is mainly used by Lyme Regis residents). It's just two a day in the winter, increasing in the summer. Dorset Council refused to offer any help.

Dorset Council meanwhile issue a Travel and Transport email every two weeks (I think) which, surprise surprise is all about cars and parking.

Mind you, given the financial hole Devon is in I worry about the future of bus services there.

 

[Dr Day]

Probably dumb question for most on this section of the forum but is the payment to bus operators for carriage of 'bus pass' passengers likely to be included in the figures in the OP, or would that be accounted for completely separately? Either way interested to know the scale of this versus say school transport.

 

[M803UYA]

I look across the border to Devon with envy. The council there publishes timetables (the East Devon one is about 96 pages) and have a ticket for about £10 a day for unlimited travel across nearly all bus operators in Devon.

Devon Council subsidise a Lyme Regis to Seaton bus (which is mainly used by Lyme Regis residents). It's just two a day in the winter, increasing in the summer. Dorset Council refused to offer any help.

Dorset Council meanwhile issue a Travel and Transport email every two weeks (I think) which, surprise surprise is all about cars and parking.

Mind you, given the financial hole Devon is in I worry about the future of bus services there.

Devon was one of the very first councils to appoint a transport co-ordinating officer in the 1970s when rural buses became widely subsidised. Other neighbouring authorities didn't do this until a lot later on, after which time Western National had taken a hatchet to much of their rural bus network when subsidies were not forthcoming.

Dorset on the other hand have embarked on a highly unsuccessful countywide retendering of their entire bus network back in 2011 which had well publicised teething troubles and have gone out of their way to eliminate what small operators there were in the marketplace. The likes of Wiltshire haven't had these supply issues as they design their supported networks to cater for this type of smaller operation and so the decline is less marked in that county.

 

[Simon75]

A recent situation in Conwy. Llew Jones cancelled their T19 because it wasn't viable and the council refused to pay up more money per pupil for the students who were being carried. Conwy council then put the statutory schools out to tender. Llew Jones put in an alternative bid which covered both of the school duties but did so as part of the T19 service AND kept the T19 going during the off peak (the bid based off just asking for the higher amount per pupil carried that they had already been asking for). Conwy Council didn't opt for keeping the schools as part of the T19, they awarded the tenders as closed door services separately. Llew Jones did some calculations and found that their bid was £30,000 per year cheaper and would have kept the local bus service going for normal passengers.


Another story that I know of is that 1 college in Wales tried to demand that a second bus runs, completely duplicating the local service bus, just so that their students can have their own bus. The operator is good enough to ignore them and provides just the service bus. Students don't care, they are all happy to get to college. This is a rural route so without the funding from the college, the local bus wouldn't exist, it's simple as that but the college didn't see it as that. They saw it as they want a dedicated bus for their students. God forbid their students get wrapped up with commoners, that would be a disaster.


I've found tens, probably hundreds of school buses, carrying thousands of students each year, who could instead be on the local bus network rather than closed door dedicated school buses. It's amazing to think that the school and local bus service budget could be combined and we could significantly improve local bus networks while simultaneously providing school transport but sadly, too many councils (and the Welsh Government) have the view that schools and service must not mix.

The word 'Safeguarding' is often used. I've always found it quite funny that they want to 'safeguard' young people by having them on closed door, dedicated school buses but these same young people then roam the streets and use normal local buses at weekends and school holidays. As a kid, I always used the public buses to get to and from school and I had no issues.

Back in 90s the then South Cheshire college did a service run by North Western, almost duplicating the K31 Northwich to Crewe

 

[Ken H]

I think the additional needs and adult services costs will be inflated by having another adult on the bus.
North Yorkshire run their stage carriage services using their own school mini buses. But they are useless for commuting or evenings out. My last bus home is 1415.

 

[neilmc]

Another problem here in rural Cumbria is that there is no requirement to provide school transport for sixth formers who are not of "compulsory school age" but effectively they are since all youngsters up to the age of 18 need to be in some form of education OR an apprenticeship. So parents suddenly find they have to drive their kids into town each day from the villages even though there may be a school bus does the same journey.

 

[Sheridan]

Another problem here in rural Cumbria is that there is no requirement to provide school transport for sixth formers who are not of "compulsory school age" but effectively they are since all youngsters up to the age of 18 need to be in some form of education OR an apprenticeship. So parents suddenly find they have to drive their kids into town each day from the villages even though there may be a school bus does the same journey.

Apologies for my ignorance, but are they not allowed to work? (I realise it’s not that relevant to the point you’re making - most will go to college or study for an apprenticeship - but I’m interested.)

 

[Simon75]

I think the additional needs and adult services costs will be inflated by having another adult on the bus.
North Yorkshire run their stage carriage services using their own school mini buses. But they are useless for commuting or evenings out. My last bus home is 1415.

Stoke-on-Trent City Council contract out special needs buses to a local firm ( Stantons of Stoke), they also use an additional adult

 

[WatcherZero]

Heres the Greater Manchester figures for comparison, I stripped out tram investment/service expenditure (£12.83m/£38.8m) and £1.9m grant from Government for monitoring rail performance. You can see how much less assisted travel costs in an urban vs rural area.

Finance provided to TfGM by Greater Manchester Combined Authority for Road services
Revenue Grant (Council Tax)	(£133.19m)
Other Grants	(£19.99m)
Capped bus fares	(£13.00m)
Free Bus Travel for 16-18 year olds	(£16.89m)
Free Bus Travel for 18-21 year olds who were in the care system	(£0.55m)
Setting up and operating Bus Franchising	(£15.90m)
Traffic Signals (Traffic Lights & Traffic Control centre)	(£3.82m)
Dft Covid Recovery funding	(£39.00m)
Total	(£242.34m)
---
Budgeted Expenditure by TfGM on Revenue services
Concessionary Reimbursement (ENCTS and local concessions)	£76.25m
Bus Subsidised Services	£63.00m
Capped Bus Fares	£13.00m
Payment of BSOG to operators (devolved)	£11.75
Accessible Transport	£3.70m
Operational Costs (Bus stations, bus stops, TfGM staff) -£1.9m for monitoring rail services	£43.80m
Traffic Signals	£3.82m
Clean Air (Grants for walking/cycling)	£2.10m
Developing Traffic Schemes (future capital projects scheme development)	£19.8m
Bus Franchising Operating Costs	£15.90m
Total	£253.12m
---
Anticipated cut requirement;
Internal (TfGM Staff, office space)	(£8.00m)
Network Review (Energy savings, opening hours, cutting/retendering services)	(£7.50m)
Market Renewal (Tackling fare evasion, increased commercial revenue from letting/advertising, procurement of cheaper service advertising)	(£5.50m)

https://democracy.greatermanchester-ca.gov.uk/documents/s24783/GMTC%2020230217%20Transport%20Revenue%20Budget%202023-24.pdf

 

[GusB]

Heres the Greater Manchester figures for comparison, I stripped out tram investment/service expenditure (£12.83m/£38.8m) and £1.9m grant from Government for monitoring rail performance. You can see how much less assisted travel costs in an urban vs rural area.

Finance provided to TfGM by Greater Manchester Combined Authority for Road services
Revenue Grant (Council Tax)	(£133.19m)
Other Grants	(£19.99m)
Capped bus fares	(£13.00m)
Free Bus Travel for 16-18 year olds	(£16.89m)
Free Bus Travel for 18-21 year olds who were in the care system	(£0.55m)
Setting up and operating Bus Franchising	(£15.90m)
Traffic Signals (Traffic Lights & Traffic Control centre)	(£3.82m)
Dft Covid Recovery funding	(£39.00m)
Total	(£242.34m)
---
Budgeted Expenditure by TfGM on Revenue services
Concessionary Reimbursement (ENCTS and local concessions)	£76.25m
Bus Subsidised Services	£63.00m
Capped Bus Fares	£13.00m
Payment of BSOG to operators (devolved)	£11.75
Accessible Transport	£3.70m
Operational Costs (Bus stations, bus stops, TfGM staff) -£1.9m for monitoring rail services	£43.80m
Traffic Signals	£3.82m
Clean Air (Grants for walking/cycling)	£2.10m
Developing Traffic Schemes (future capital projects scheme development)	£19.8m
Bus Franchising Operating Costs	£15.90m
Total	£253.12m
---
Anticipated cut requirement;
Internal (TfGM Staff, office space)	(£8.00m)
Network Review (Energy savings, opening hours, cutting/retendering services)	(£7.50m)
Market Renewal (Tackling fare evasion, increased commercial revenue from letting/advertising, procurement of cheaper service advertising)	(£5.50m)

What is the source for this information?

 

[bluenoxid]

I would want to see what the Councils are spending as it is possible that the assisted transport is covered by the council budgets and not the local transport authority.

 

[WatcherZero]

Councils dont fund transport, thats all the grant funding for GMATL. There are fees for using the service which helps offset the running costs. Theres likely NHS funding, I will see if I can dig that up.

Concessionary Plus	£1.10
Concessionary over 70*	£1.60
Disabled	£1.60
Travel Voucher*	£2.10
Accompanying a Passenger with TfGM Concessionary Plus Bus Pass*	£1.60
Accompanying a Passenger with a TfGM Concessionary Bus Pass	£3.10
Accompanying a Passenger with a TfGM Disabled Bus Pass	£3.10

Travel vouchers for disabled people

Travel vouchers for disabled people. Buy vouchers for discounted travel in taxis, private hire vehicles and community transport schemes.

tfgm.com

Ring & Ride accessible minibuses

Ring & ride is an accessible transport service available in Greater Manchester for people who find it difficult to use public transport

tfgm.com

 

[Simon75]

Councils dont fund transport, thats all the grant funding for GMATL. There are fees for using the service which helps offset the running costs.

Concessionary Plus	£1.10
Concessionary over 70*	£1.60
Disabled	£1.60
Travel Voucher*	£2.10
Accompanying a Passenger with TfGM Concessionary Plus Bus Pass*	£1.60
Accompanying a Passenger with a TfGM Concessionary Bus Pass	£3.10
Accompanying a Passenger with a TfGM Disabled Bus Pass	£3.10

Travel vouchers for disabled people

Travel vouchers for disabled people. Buy vouchers for discounted travel in taxis, private hire vehicles and community transport schemes.

tfgm.com

Ring & Ride accessible minibuses

Ring & ride is an accessible transport service available in Greater Manchester for people who find it difficult to use public transport

tfgm.com

Whats GMATL and who pays those fees ?

 

[WatcherZero]

Greater Manchester Accessible Transport Limited, Charity provides doorstep minibuses for people unable to access regular buses and the voucher coupons for discounted taxi travel. Those fees are paid by users of the bus service.