Travelling beyond boundary of GM Wayfarer ticket.

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by Mcr Warrior, 31 Jan 2019.

  1. Mcr Warrior

    Mcr Warrior Member

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    What additional (adult) day return ticket(s) would be required when travelling off-peak on a non-stop TransPennine Express service from Manchester Piccadilly to/from Preston (Lancs) and already holding a valid (adult) Greater Manchester Wayfarer ticket for the day of travel.
     
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  3. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    As that ticket is currently routed via Wigan North Western, and the validity of the Wayfarer ends there (as per the route map), you need a ticket from Wigan North Western to Preston. Note that it is acceptable to use a train that doesn't stop at Wigan (e.g. the TPE service), as one of the tickets involved (the Wayfarer) is a ranger-style ticket.
     
  4. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    Though be prepared for a big or an argument if your train doesn’t stop there as some guards are not necessarily familiar with all of the rules, and indeed there are grey areas with multimodal tickets.
     
  5. marcouk2

    marcouk2 Member

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    I agree that you can get staff who still aren't familiar with the NRCoT changes but don't agree about grey areas, 14.3 says:

    There's no specific exclusion in the Wayfarer t&cs for using a Wayfarer with another ticket so 14.3 doesn't apply.
     
  6. robbeech

    robbeech Established Member

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    Fully agree. But as there are exclusion with some similar tickets this is where the issues may start.
     
  7. Harpers Tate

    Harpers Tate Established Member

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    I have encountered a "long distance" conductor who insisted that the actual boundary of a WayFarer is not where it actually is - my debate was in the Sheffield direction where he was 100% insistent validity ended at Hazel Grove - despite me showing him the map! I caught another train rather than pay up and ask questions later.

    And the thing that is unjust about all of this is - if you do end up being so disadvantaged, the absolute most you can hope for is anything extra you have paid refunded, with no compensation for the outlay, time, postage costs and otherwise ("administration fees") or stress caused by the "honest and genuine mistake".
     
  8. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    If anyone makes exception to the suggested combination, the key is not to start to get wound up (even though they are, frankly, not competent to do their job if they have an issue with something that's as relatively simple as that). Try and explain it simply and nicely. If they insist it's not acceptable to them, do whatever they ask you to do (get off at the next stop, give your details, pay etc.) and then pursue the matter afterwards.

    The last thing you need in a situation like this is for a power hungry, unknowledgeable member of staff (there aren't many of these, but more than zero unfortunately!) to call the railway's pet mafia police force, the BTP.
     
  9. Kite159

    Kite159 Veteran Member

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    I had something similar on an EMT service where the guard got confused with a GM RailRover product (where the boundary would be Hazel Grove on the non-stop EMT services).

    (They don't like it when you use a Grindleford - Sheffield ticket alongside a Wayfarer as I would imagine EMT will get hardly anything from ORCATS)
     
  10. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    Might be getting it confused with a GM Countycard which ends at Hazel Grove on expresses or Strines IIRC on stoppers.
     
  11. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    This is what I do not understand. Why would a guard be the slightest bit interested in how much, or little, their employer gets from a particular ticket ? Their pay/job security will not be affected in any way by a handful of people using (quite legitimately, of course) a Wayfarer on a train which does not stop at Grindleford. The way one such person went on, you would think he was paying EMT the ticket revenue out of his own pocket.

    Well the changes were only introduced in October 2016 - can't expect them to have filtered through in such a short time :'(
     
  12. Llandudno

    Llandudno Member

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    I have considered using a GM Wayfarer on an EMT express service in conjunction with a Grindleford to Chesterfield day return, however, I have always shyed away from doing so to avoid any hassle with the guard.

    Can anyone post a link on here from relevant section of the National Conditions of Carriage regarding this arrangement so I can screenshot it on my phone, and keep it for future use?

    Thanks
     
  13. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    upload_2019-2-1_17-1-45.png
     
  14. Harpers Tate

    Harpers Tate Established Member

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    "Simplification".

    I have no doubt that this very specific wording was written with the sole intent to clearly define that there has to be no gap in the coverage of the (two) tickets. In fact what it also does, is to exclude use of (two) tickets where there is any overlap in validity.

    Illustration: Route A B C D for non-stop journey AD

    I'd have to guess that this wording was designed to make it clear that tickets AB plus CD would not be valid. You'd need AB and BD or AC and CD.
    But it also quite clearly disallows AC plus BD. I doubt that was part of the intent.
     
  15. marcouk2

    marcouk2 Member

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    I've never had any issues with EMT Guards using a Grindleford & a Wayfarer, even been happy to sell me the Wayfarer on board when my local ticket office refused to sell me the split.
     
  16. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    I'm unsure about that. I wonder if it was deliberate as it makes only one split valid for any given pair of tickets and doesn't allow you to muck around looking for cheaper ones, nor put any expectations on staff to do so.
     
  17. Mcr Warrior

    Mcr Warrior Member

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    :frown: Have now heard back from TransPennine Express on this. Their response was essentially to ask that I purchase two off-peak singles ?!
     
  18. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    As far as I know, the Wayfarer has the same validity as a CountyCard, so you'd only need to pay from Wigan NW.

    Transpennine telling you to buy two singles is very wrong as if you were to travel on a non stop with 2 singles, they wouldn't be valid!
     
  19. Silverdale

    Silverdale Member

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    Singles from where to where?
    Two (day) singles, one from Wigan to Preston and one from Preston to Wigan would enable you to travel to/from Preston in combination with the GM Wayfarer.

    But equally a day return from Wigan to Preston would do the same. Did TP's advice say that wasn't the case?
     
  20. jtuk

    jtuk Member

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    Similar here, I do this every other week or so (since TPE eliminated day returns on most Sheffield to GM-land routes for "simplification"), never had any issues
     
  21. jtuk

    jtuk Member

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    Aaaand just as soon as I post that someone argued that the train should have stopped at Grindleford in order for the combination to be valid. Mind you, they did apologise after I pulled up whatever the conditions of carriage are called nowadays, which is fair enough, shouldn't need to do that but it was TPE so I shouldn't expect them to know what the deal is
     
  22. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    I've had it on TPE a couple of times going Manchester to Huddersfield using the same technique, and it's something that I've brought up with TPE several times...

    Me: Just boarded the 07:30 Stalybridge to Huddersfield and attempted to use my usual combination of tickets which is a season to Greenfield + a single to Huddersfield. Guard was incredibly nice and let me but he wasn't aware of the rule where you can use a season and a non season together and the train doesn't have to stop at the station.

    Me: I'm not looking to get the guard into trouble as he was lovely but I feel staff training on tickets need brushing up - as I'm sure you've seen I tweet about it a LOT

    TransPennine Express: Hi Tom, thanks for the feedback we will pass it to our Revenue Protection team to revisit and make a brief. ^SG

    20190216_174940.jpg
     
    Last edited: 17 Feb 2019
  23. yorkie

    yorkie Forum Staff Staff Member Administrator

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    The chances of there being a problem doing this on TPE are relatively low as most TPE Guards seem to be quite relaxed and don't try to enforce rules that don't exist, at least the ones on my route anyway!

    Just a gentle reminder regarding the posting of images, that any image containing text cannot be understood by anyone who is unable to see the image, for example blind people. So it is important to add a text alternative (quote/summary/description, as appropriate) for accessibility reasons. Thanks :)
     
  24. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    Apologies Yorkie! I've updated my post.
     
  25. Andrew Nelson

    Andrew Nelson Member

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    Similarly with holders of Metro Cards being told they can only use services that stop at Marsden, or buy all the way though to Huddersfield.

    Does anybody know why TPX have been allowed to cease the Day Return fares between Manchester and Huddersfield?
     
  26. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Off-Peak Day Returns aren't a regulated fare, so they are under no obligation to sell them at all. The only two regulated fares are the Off-Peak Return and the Season Ticket. They can only increase those two in line with the agreed DfT measure (RPI at the moment), and the Off-Peak Return must be valid after 10:30am (in practice, TPE have set varying restrictions on their Off-Peak Returns throughout their network, the net effect of which is approximately that you can't reach the destination station before 09:00am, which seems fairly sensible to me).
     
  27. Andrew Nelson

    Andrew Nelson Member

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    The nice thing with the "Wayfarer" tickets is that they are valid through the afternoon peak, unlike many other local rovers.
     
  28. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member Associate Staff Events Co-ordinator

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    Because they want you to pay more - significantly more in this case (almost 10%). The government have effectively required them to try to force as many people as possible to pay more.
    A shame then about those travelling from Manchester to Newcastle, who can't arrive until 1107, even though until recently they could have arrived much earlier... Until recently passengers travelling with an Off Peak Return from Newcastle to Manchester could arrive just after 0930. Now, they cannot arrive before 1122...
     
  29. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Well, perhaps I should revise that then. The net idea appears to be that they don't want you on their network in the Liverpool-Manchester area before 09:00. Not all tickets will work out like that - in particular, if connecting from a subsidiary station within a flow then you may have to wait until later, but that seems to be the main aim. Obviously it would have been much simpler simply to have one restriction (not departing or arriving at Manchester Stations or Liverpool Stations before 09:00), but that would be rather like Thameslink in the complexity of actually successfully implementing the required electronic restrictions properly.
     
  30. Starmill

    Starmill Veteran Member Associate Staff Events Co-ordinator

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    This is the restriction that Newcastle to Manchester tickets used to have, along with tickets to Manchester from a number of other origins. I imagine almost all Newcastle to Manchester traffic goes on the through trains.
     
  31. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    Just seen this question posed to East Midlands on Twitter and it failed miserably - the passenger being told wrong thrice before being told correctly...
     

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