TrawsCambria / TrawsCymru

[adey2011]

Are the 301/302/304 services commercially run by MWT.

 

[Bwsbro]

Are the 301/302/304 services commercially run by MWT.

All three are operated Commercially by MWT. Including the evening service on 302 and 304 to fill the gap in service between the evening 03 Uni Bus

 

[adey2011]

Thanks for the info on the 301 etc, I sort of gathered as much when they introduced the double deck vehicle recently. I imagine the 512 is also commercial as the Ceredigion timetable shows only the two late services as tendered?

 

[Bwsbro]

Thanks for the info on the 301 etc, I sort of gathered as much when they introduced the double deck vehicle recently. I imagine the 512 is also commercial as the Ceredigion timetable shows only the two late services as tendered?

Yes the 512 daytime is fully commercial. Interworking with the 301 Penparcau Circular

 

[Rhydgaled]

Yes the 512 daytime is fully commercial. Interworking with the 301 Penparcau Circular

Is there much interworking on Mid Wales Travel's Aberystwyth services? The 03 (Bus Station - National Library - University - Seafront) service cetainly could use some I think since it has basically no recovery time at stops. Consequentially it can end up very late/early.

 

[Bwsbro]

Is there much interworking on Mid Wales Travel's Aberystwyth services? The 03 (Bus Station - National Library - University - Seafront) service cetainly could use some I think since it has basically no recovery time at stops. Consequentially it can end up very late/early.

The 302 and 304 is operated by the same vehicle throughout the day. Mainly operated by Dennis Darts SY52MYS or SY52MYR. The Only vehicles which operates around the Morrisons Car Park. These Buses also operate the
19:15 - 304
19:40 - 302
20:20 - 03
20:45 - 302
21:20 - 03
21:45 - 304
22:20 - 03
22:45 - 512 to Ynyslas Turn via Commins Coch, Penrhyncoch and Tre'r Ddol
23:28 - 512 from Ynyslas Turn
23:55 - 526 to Penrhyncoch

As i understand the majority of the Monday - Friday (Uni Term Time Only) Service 526, 301 and 512 interwork

From what i understand Drivers operate
526: Penrhyncoch - Aberystywth
512: Aberystwyth - Ynyslas Turn - Aberystwyth
301: Penparcau Circular
526: Aberystwyth - Penrhyncoch

Regarding the 03 YX12FRC on Monday - Friday during term times these service operate a loop every twenty minutes from 07:40 to 19:40 departures from the Promenade and therefore theres no possibility for interworking.

From what i understand it was the University which insisted on a twenty minute circular during the term time although Mid Wales Travel wished to run the service every half an hour to allow for delays which are frequent

On Saturday the 03 and 301 interwork which therefore combined gives the University Penglais Campus a Half Hourly service to/from Aberystwyth Town Centre

 

[adey2011]

Thanks very much for the information on MWT services, very informative and interesting.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Thanks very much for the information on MWT services, very informative and interesting.

Seconded.

Regarding the 03 YX12FRC on Monday - Friday during term times these service operate a loop every twenty minutes from 07:40 to 19:40 departures from the Promenade and therefore theres no possibility for interworking.

From what i understand it was the University which insisted on a twenty minute circular during the term time although Mid Wales Travel wished to run the service every half an hour to allow for delays which are frequent

Does it have to be an endless curcuit though? Couldn't they have a point of the route where one service terminates and the next begins (with a different bus)?

 

[adey2011]

A second bus in dedicated livery sounds a tad expensive. Has the double decker been repainted yet?

 

[Bwsbro]

Seconded.

Does it have to be an endless curcuit though? Couldn't they have a point of the route where one service terminates and the next begins (with a different bus)?

Problem with the Service is that Passengers travel through the Promenade where each service begins traveling to the Bus Station. Making the service operated by two buses would result in some dead millage as buses would have to operate to and from the bus station for no reason.

The Double Decker is still Red although its not in service much

 

[Rhydgaled]

A second bus in dedicated livery sounds a tad expensive.

I don't think I would bother with the dedicated livery.

Problem with the Service is that Passengers travel through the Promenade where each service begins traveling to the Bus Station.

Indeed.

Making the service operated by two buses would result in some dead millage as buses would have to operate to and from the bus station for no reason.

Not necessarily. How about the route is altered to go:

1. Bus Station
2. Promenade
3. Bus Station
4. National Library
5. University
6. Promenade
7. Bus Station

Then one bus could start from the Bus Station (1) just as the previous one is departing the promenade (6). It does require an extra trip from the bus station to the promenade (and one in the other direction) but there's no reason it would have to run 'out of service' on that leg.

Back on the topic of TrawsCymru, I've written a bit about the review by Dr Victoria Winckler, which has finally been published. What does anyone else make of it?

 

[anthony263]

A lot of that review I have not had a chance to read fully although I intend to do so when I get a chance.

I know the Hereford depot has been interested in the proposed Swansea - Brecon - Hereford service

 

[Rhydgaled]

A lot of that review I have not had a chance to read fully although I intend to do so when I get a chance.

I know the Hereford depot has been interested in the proposed Swansea - Brecon - Hereford service

The only metions of services to Swansea I noticed in the review were the old X40/10/20 services and a Swansea – Merthyr Tydfil – Abergavenny service. However, aside from the five TrawsCambria route it didn't seem to be selecting any routes in particular for implementation, just saying that more are likely.

 

[anthony263]

That Swansea to Abergavenny service Merthyr Tydfil is most likely going to follow the same route as the current X4 & X75 services operated by Stagecoach & 1st Call travell although it migfht miss out some villages especially east of Merthyr Tydfil.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

That Swansea to Abergavenny service Merthyr Tydfil is most likely going to follow the same route as the current X4 & X75 services operated by Stagecoach & 1st Call travell although it migfht miss out some villages especially east of Merthyr Tydfil.

I have read the document. As someone who does that sort of thing for a living (e.g. transport modelling and report writing), it's a mess. In defence of the writer, part of that may be the consequence of the rather lacklustre brief and, one wonders, a lack of finance for a proper study.

Things that caught my eye.....

The author had spoken to Stagecoach about the vehicles used, much in the way you'd talk to someone over a coffee? Where's the data about suitability? What about average journey length (which should be easily downloadable from the ticket machine, converted to a CSV and then do some Vlookups in Excel).

When proposing a route from Carmarthen to Abergavenny.....why? Or indeed Wrexham to Rhyl via Ruthin? A lack of evidence for existing traffic flows or anything? Also, the lack of understanding in some of the issues given that Carmarthen to Abergavenny is a case of merging

• A 90 min freq Carm to Llandovery with various village diversions
• A 3 journey per day 80 Llandovery to Brecon
• An hourly Brecon to Aber service

How do those disparities get addressed? Do you, as noted with the other corridors, miss out some villages (esp on the 280/1) and if so, how is that then addressed? How does that impact on the costs?

The absolute "tin hat" was the statement about the T5, in which the author explicitly stated that it should be implemented and not be delayed by establishing the business case! Why not establish the business case? If the inference is that the routes actually exist, it's a low cost and low risk exercise, etc, then why not actually say that.

The lack of empirical data and clear logic was baffling. And no, I wasn't a disappointed also run who didn't "get the gig".

That's not to say that there aren't areas of merit; credit is due regarding the forthright mention of muddling thinking and a lack of clear focus for TC. And perhaps the clearest indication is 2.13

Although there is a general case to support the network, I have been surprised by the absence of detailed business cases for each of the corridors. No forecasts of demand have been undertaken since 2003 despite considerable changes in social and economic circumstances and travel behaviour. Forecasts of demand and market analysis should indicate likely levels of patronage and help to inform decisions on the acceptable level of public subsidy for services.

Market analysis would also mean that services can be tailored to meet customer requirements, for example in terms of timing, frequency, stopping places and vehicle specification. This approach is standard when seeking enhancement to rail services and to support investment by the private sector.

Maybe that is her point.... she was told to undertake a high level, desktop exercise and maybe she recognises that this study is actually a long way from a proper in-depth analysis!

 

[adey2011]

Yesterdays Notices and Proceedings had the following - Express Motors PG0007219/34 cancellation of service T2 from 01/04/14, yet their new published timetable clearly show the service as being from 01/04/14? Also if you look at their new timetables you cannot help but notice that it is a clear cut and paste job of Lloyds Coaches template, they even retain we run from Bangor to Aberystwyth and Dolgellau and Newtown - do they, which part of Newtown. Clearly plagurised.

 

[Bwsbro]

Yesterdays Notices and Proceedings had the following - Express Motors PG0007219/34 cancellation of service T2 from 01/04/14, yet their new published timetable clearly show the service as being from 01/04/14? Also if you look at their new timetables you cannot help but notice that it is a clear cut and paste job of Lloyds Coaches template, they even retain we run from Bangor to Aberystwyth and Dolgellau and Newtown - do they, which part of Newtown. Clearly plagurised.

The Whole website is a cut and paste of the Lloyds Coaches. If you click on the Email button you get [email protected]. And throughout the website it states Lloyds Coaches

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The Whole website is a cut and paste of the Lloyds Coaches. If you click on the Email button you get [email protected]. And throughout the website it states Lloyds Coaches

And because we know...

"Express Motors appoint Richard Jones as their first general manager, previously being Gwynedd Council's Senior Public Transport Officer and then subsequently the successful general manager at Machynlleth based Lloyds Coaches."

 

[Bwsbro]

It is confirmed that Carmarthenshire County Council has submitted an invitation to tender for the T1 Bus Route between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen replacing the current 40/40C commencing late June/ early July 2014 for 7 years

According to the ITT all buses should have Free Wifi for Passingers alongside other TrawsCymru requirements

The service will operate along the following route:
Aberystwyth (Bus Station) – Penparcau (Morrisons) – Aberaeron (Alban Square) – Temple Bar – Lampeter (High Street) – Llanwnnen – Llanybydder – Llanllwni – New Inn - Pencader (square) – Peniel – Glangwili Hospital – Carmarthen Rail Station - Carmarthen Bus Station.
Return journeys reverse of above.
Consideration may be given to diverting some journeys via Pencarreg instead of Llanwnnen.

The Services offered vary for operators wishing to use Domestic Driving Hours or the European although most services will be the same as Current (05:40 from Aberystwyth might be curtailed to Lampeter) with an optional extra journey at 21:30 to Lampeter. Adding an additional Late Journey to Aberaeron

Importantly Sunday Buses Might Be Intorduced
Plans include an

08:15, 12:15, 15:15, 19:15 Departures from Carmarthen and
08:50, 11:50, 15:50, 18:50 Departures from Aberystwyth

No News on the future of the T2, X50, X94 Although will post if a ITT is published for these services

 

[Rhydgaled]

It is confirmed that Carmarthenshire County Council has submitted an invitation to tender for the T1 Bus Route between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen replacing the current 40/40C commencing late June/ early July 2014 for 7 years

According to the ITT all buses should have Free Wifi for Passingers alongside other TrawsCymru requirements

Interesting. Does it say whether the operator(s) is/are expected to source their own vehicles or is WAG supplying them?

Shame about T1, can't we have TC1 instead, would make much more sense?

The Services offered vary for operators wishing to use Domestic Driving Hours or the European although most services will be the same as Current (05:40 from Aberystwyth might be curtailed to Lampeter) with an optional extra journey at 21:30 to Lampeter. Adding an additional Late Journey to Aberaeron

No fix to the scheduling at Aberystwyth then (xx:40 makes the X50/50/550 xx:10, too early)? And how about the 6am to 8pm service orriginally promised? Are we going to be stuck with last bus in each direction being before 8pm for the next 7 years? Also, I notice Pencader is still on the route, that means it isn't going to be compliant with the 'no more the 50% slower than the car' goal. Shame, but I suppose it would be hard to provide an alternative service to link Pencader to both Lampeter and Carmarthen.

Importantly Sunday Buses Might Be Intorduced
Plans include an

08:15, 12:15, 15:15, 19:15 Departures from Carmarthen and
08:50, 11:50, 15:50, 18:50 Departures from Aberystwyth

That sounds a bit more promising, Sundays return, hope it doesn't stop there.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Shame about T1, can't we have TC1 instead, would make much more sense?

No fix to the scheduling at Aberystwyth then (xx:40 makes the X50/50/550 xx:10, too early)? And how about the 6am to 8pm service orriginally promised? Are we going to be stuck with last bus in each direction being before 8pm for the next 7 years? Also, I notice Pencader is still on the route, that means it isn't going to be compliant with the 'no more the 50% slower than the car' goal. Shame, but I suppose it would be hard to provide an alternative service to link Pencader to both Lampeter and Carmarthen.

That sounds a bit more promising, Sundays return, hope it doesn't stop there.

Surely T1 fits in with T4 and T9 in the numbering scheme?

As for the 0600-2000 promise, doesn't that date to the days of a much greater budgetary scope. In reality, the "hourly" frequency is something that a lot of areas would kill for. The only really noticeable gap is the lack of the 1818 Lampeter to Aber journey, and is a later journey from Carmarthen is that important?

Given the pressure on budgets, I'd sooner see improvements to other strategic links if there's money about, like a third vehicle on the 280/1 to make it hourly instead of every 90 mins.

Missing Pencader out would be pretty foolish as it's THE major traffic generator south of Lampeter and, as you say, getting a replacement would be very expensive. The 50% rule is pretty arbitrary with no empirical evidence to back it up. Also, in areas of low population density, you do need to bend a bit with serving the few larger villages/small towns otherwise you'd have a Brecon to Hereford service and not serve Hay (which would be daft)! It is a balance that needs to be struck

 

[Bwsbro]

These are the Services which are available to Operators to tender for. Each Group of Services will be tendered independently

Domestic Hours

1. 0640 Aberystwyth – 0855 Carmarthen; 0910 Carmarthen – 1125 Aberystwyth;
1140 Aberystwyth – 1355 Carmarthen; 1410 Carmarthen – 1625 Aberystwyth;
1640 Aberystwyth – 1855 Carmarthen; 1910 Carmarthen – 2120 Aberystwyth
An ADDITIONAL price per day is required for an extra optional journey at around 2130 from Aberystwyth to Lampeter.

2. 0740 Aberystwyth – 0955 Carmarthen; 1010 Carmarthen – 1225 Aberystwyth; 1240 Aberystwyth – 1455 Carmarthen; 1510 Carmarthen – 1725 Aberystwyth; 1740 Aberystwyth – 1955 Carmarthen

3. 0700 Llanybydder – 0825 Aberystwyth; 0840 Aberystwyth – 1055 Carmarthen; 1110 Carmarthen – 1325 Aberystwyth; 1340 Aberystwyth – 1555 Carmarthen; 1610 Carmarthen – 1825 Aberystwyth; 1840 Aberystwyth – 2005 Llanybydder

4. 0710 Carmarthen – 0925 Aberystwyth; 0940 Aberystwyth – 1155 Carmarthen; 1210 Carmarthen – 1425 Aberystwyth; 1440 Aberystwyth – 1655 Carmarthen; 1710 Carmarthen – 1925 Aberystwyth; 1940 Aberystwyth – 2050 Lampeter

5. 0655 Lampeter – 0755 Carmarthen; 0810 Carmarthen – 1025 Aberystwyth; 1040 Aberystwyth – 1255 Carmarthen; 1310 Carmarthen – 1525 Aberystwyth; 1540 Aberystwyth – 1755 Carmarthen; 1810 Carmarthen – 1910 Lampeter

Sundays and Bank Holidays, as specified:
0815 Carmarthen – 1020 Aberystwyth; 1050 Aberystwyth – 1255 Carmarthen; 1415 Carmarthen – 1620 Aberystwyth; 1650 Aberystwyth – 1855 Carmarthen

0850 Aberystwyth – 1055 Carmarthen; 1115 Carmarthen – 1320 Aberystwyth; 1450 Aberystwyth – 1655 Carmarthen; 1715 Carmarthen – 1920 Aberystwyth;

European Hours
1. 0640 Lampeter – 0755 Carmarthen; 0910 Carmarthen – 1125 Aberystwyth; 1240 Aberystwyth – 1455 Carmarthen; 1610 Carmarthen – 1825 Aberystwyth 1940 Aberystwyth – 2050 Lampeter

2. 0640 Aberystwyth – 0855 Carmarthen; 1010 Carmarthen – 1225 Aberystwyth; 1340 Aberystwyth – 1555 Carmarthen; 1710 Carmarthen – 1925 Aberystwyth

3. 0740 Aberystwyth – 0955 Carmarthen; 1110 Carmarthen – 1325 Aberystwyth; 1440 Aberystwyth – 1655 Carmarthen; 1810 Carmarthen – 2025 Aberystwyth

4. 0840 Aberystwyth – 1055 Carmarthen; 1210 Carmarthen – 1425 Aberystwyth;
1540 Aberystwyth – 1755 Carmarthen; 1910 Carmarthen – 2125 Aberystwyth
An ADDITIONAL price per day is required for an extra optional journey at around 2130 from Aberystwyth to Lampeter.

5. 0610 Carmarthen – 0825 Aberystwyth; 0940 Aberystwyth – 1155 Carmarthen 1310 Carmarthen – 1525 Aberystwyth; 1640 Aberystwyth – 1855 Carmarthen

6. 0710 Carmarthen – 0925 Aberystwyth; 1040 Aberystwyth – 1255 Carmarthen 1410 Carmarthen – 1625 Aberystwyth; 1740 Aberystwyth – 1955 Carmarthen

7. 0810 Carmarthen – 1025 Aberystwyth; 1140 Aberystwyth – 1355 Carmarthen 1510 Carmarthen – 1725 Aberystwyth; 1840 Aberystwyth – 2055 Carmarthen

Sunday Network
0815 Carmarthen – 1020 Aberystwyth; 1150 Aberystwyth – 1355 Carmarthen; 1515 Carmarthen – 1720 Aberystwyth; 1850 Aberystwyth – 2055 Carmarthen

0850 Aberystwyth – 1055 Carmarthen; 1215 Carmarthen – 1420 Aberystwyth; 1550 Aberystwyth – 1755 Carmarthen; 1915 Carmarthen – 2120 Aberystwyth;

Regarding Buses the ITT States

Vehicles:
Vehicles will be provided by the successful tenderer(s). Vehicles must seat at least 40 passengers and be not more than 3 years old at the start of the contract.
The vehicles must as a minimum meet the Trawscymru Quality Specification which is as follows:
- Low floor “easy access” single deck vehicle
- Euro 5 environmental standards
- Supplied in base white; T1 management group to arrange and fund provision and application of suitable external livery (therefore other external advertising will not be possible)
- Internal and external CCTV
- Electronic destination displays in accordance with DDA standards; displays to alternate between English and Welsh. If Domestic option (Option A) is awarded with route split at Lampeter, destinations for Carmarthen – Lampeter journeys to additionally display “for Aberystwyth” and for the Aberystwyth – Lampeter journeys to additionally display “for Carmarthen” (bilingually)

- On board Hanover visual and audio announcement system
- Internal audio-visual passenger information system
- Comfortable, high back seats at reasonable spacing allowing a comfortable passenger journey appropriate to a longer distance service (suggested minimum seat pitch 699mm)
- Space for at least one wheelchair
- Sufficient space for stowing luggage appropriate to a longer distance service
- Free Wi-fi reception for passengers within the vehicle
- Actia telematics system to be fitted, T1 management group to arrange and fund provision and fitting of suitable system
- Recharging electrical sockets optional but desired

A regular pool of drivers must be used for the service with through fares for connecting Bwcabus Service such as the 621 Service in Pencader for Llandysul

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

These are the Services which are available to Operators to tender for. Each Group of Services will be tendered independently



Regarding Buses the ITT States


A regular pool of drivers must be used for the service with through fares for connecting Bwcabus Service such as the 621 Service in Pencader for Llandysul

Interesting about the age requirement but also the lead times on new vehicles. There was a line from First about potentially refurbing the ex Hants Eclipses but that's not now possible though think the ability to get stuff in that timescale will be tricky to meet.

Nothing older than a 61 plate then..... so I suspect that new vehicles will be ordered but with a proviso that they won't be there from day one

 

[Rhydgaled]

Surely T1 fits in with T4 and T9 in the numbering scheme?

Indeed, it is the whole numbering scheme that I think is illogical. T4 should be TC4 also. T9 can stay as T9 as in my opinion it shouldn't be part of TrawsCymru. I thought the idea behind moving away from X32, X50, 704 etc. was to get a common numbering system across the network to strengthen the brand, but the T prefix is used by normal local bus services (eg. T21 in Aberystwyth), isn't as obviously related to the TrawsCymru name as 'TC' would be and doesn't have the same ring to it as an 'X' prefix.

As for the 0600-2000 promise, doesn't that date to the days of a much greater budgetary scope.

It dates from orriginal TrawsCymru launch plan. How much bigger was the budget back when TC4/T4 was launched, which was when the TC1 orriginally planned would have appeared?

In reality, the "hourly" frequency is something that a lot of areas would kill for. The only really noticeable gap is the lack of the 1818 Lampeter to Aber journey, and is a later journey from Carmarthen is that important?

Campaign group RANT were also complaining about the 40/40c lacking a 07:40 from Aberystwyth. The strongest of their reasons for this in my opinion was that the 701 doesn't accept tickets from 40/40c and vice versa. As for later journies being important, perhaps you should have a read of this? Particularly this sentance:

A country which gives no guarantee that we can travel between our major centres after seven o’clock, and where to do so risks spending the night on Carmarthen Station is signalling a clear message: failure.

Later services are needed from Aberystwyth too. Back when it was Arriva-run, I had someone approach me arround 6pm (I think) wanting to go to Carmarthen. I couldn't help her since the last bus had left at 17-something and I doubted you could get a train the long way round at that time of night either.

Missing Pencader out would be pretty foolish as it's THE major traffic generator south of Lampeter and, as you say, getting a replacement would be very expensive. The 50% rule is pretty arbitrary with no empirical evidence to back it up.

Agreed the rule is arbitrary, but it was presented as an upper limit. It said that ideally it should be no more than 33% slower. Again, no hard evidence to back it up but when I read it I thought 33% sounded about right to me. The most ecconomic solution I have dreamt up would be to have a Carmarthen - Llandysul service (the orriginal T1 tender, which Arriva blocked with CymruExpress, also included such a service, known as L1) and leave passengers going north from Pencader towards Lampeter with Bwcabus. The latter runs the risk of inconvieniencing too many passengers, but doesn't Llandysul (is that a similar size to Pencader?) have very few services other than Bwcabus?

Regarding Buses the ITT States

Vehicles will be provided by the successful tenderer(s)

No reallocation of TrawsCymru long-distance resources from the short-distance airport express then . Not likely to get the fancy looking seats that I'm so keen to sample.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Indeed, it is the whole numbering scheme that I think is illogical. T4 should be TC4 also. T9 can stay as T9 as in my opinion it shouldn't be part of TrawsCymru. I thought the idea behind moving away from X32, X50, 704 etc. was to get a common numbering system across the network to strengthen the brand, but the T prefix is used by normal local bus services (eg. T21 in Aberystwyth), isn't as obviously related to the TrawsCymru name as 'TC' would be and doesn't have the same ring to it as an 'X' prefix.

It dates from orriginal TrawsCymru launch plan. How much bigger was the budget back when TC4/T4 was launched, which was when the TC1 orriginally planned would have appeared?

Campaign group RANT were also complaining about the 40/40c lacking a 07:40 from Aberystwyth. The strongest of their reasons for this in my opinion was that the 701 doesn't accept tickets from 40/40c and vice versa. As for later journies being important, perhaps you should have a read of this? Particularly this sentance: Later services are needed from Aberystwyth too. Back when it was Arriva-run, I had someone approach me arround 6pm (I think) wanting to go to Carmarthen. I couldn't help her since the last bus had left at 17-something and I doubted you could get a train the long way round at that time of night either.

Agreed the rule is arbitrary, but it was presented as an upper limit. It said that ideally it should be no more than 33% slower. Again, no hard evidence to back it up but when I read it I thought 33% sounded about right to me. The most ecconomic solution I have dreamt up would be to have a Carmarthen - Llandysul service (the orriginal T1 tender, which Arriva blocked with CymruExpress, also included such a service, known as L1) and leave passengers going north from Pencader towards Lampeter with Bwcabus. The latter runs the risk of inconvieniencing too many passengers, but doesn't Llandysul (is that a similar size to Pencader?) have very few services other than Bwcabus?

No reallocation of TrawsCymru long-distance resources from the short-distance airport express then . Not likely to get the fancy looking seats that I'm so keen to sample.

The Aber locals could and should be renumbered in that case. A national network numbering shouldn't be dictated by that, and if the network ever grows to form more than 9 routes then you'll have TC10 and TC12 which might prove a bit confusing/messy.

If someone wanted to remove Pencader, then you will inconvenience quite a few and take trade from the main route. It's a balance between speeding up services to attract custom but not rationalising the route so much that you miss out on passengers and have to spend much more in providing a substandard service.

As for services after 1900 and the blog to which you refer. All very laudable but that sort of case exists everywhere. Last bus Hereford to Brecon is 1745, last one the other way is 1605!! Same situation exists on other routes (X63) whilst routes like the 80...... first bus is at 0955! The 0740 ex Aber is, of course, a problem has been discussed ad nauseum on this forum as you can't run a subsidised service against a commercial operation. Whether any form of concession can be negotiated is a more likely move than changing the law.

If money can be found to enhance services, there are much better options to focus upon e.g.

• hourly on Carm to Llandovery
• better service from Llandovery to Brecon
• hourly Brecon to Hereford (though they'll not do that as it's not wholly in Wales)
• hourly Brecon to Swansea

or just the assimilation of the TCC services into the network

 

[anthony263]

Brecon - Swansea and Brecon - Hereford on an hourly frequency would be great especially if some journeys operated through to Hereford/Swansea rather than terminating at Brecon.

The 280/281 has long required a 3rd vehicle and an hourly frequency giving certain parts of the route a clockface 2 hourly service

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Brecon - Swansea and Brecon - Hereford on an hourly frequency would be great especially if some journeys operated through to Hereford/Swansea rather than terminating at Brecon.

The 280/281 has long required a 3rd vehicle and an hourly frequency giving certain parts of the route a clockface 2 hourly service

Absolutely on the 280/1. With both working on a 90 min frequency, you have parts of the route with a 3 hour (or more) gap, and it serves a number of fair sized villages (Llanwrda, Llangadog) as well as Llandeilo and Llandovery.

The Winkler report (of which some looks like it was written by Henry Winkler rather than Victoria ) had the Carmarthen to Abergavenny corridor which is frankly daft. The two ends should be hourly but Brecon to Llandovery cannot support that. Yours is a much more sensible idea!

 

[Rhydgaled]

The Aber locals could and should be renumbered in that case. A national network numbering shouldn't be dictated by that, and if the network ever grows to form more than 9 routes then you'll have TC10 and TC12 which might prove a bit confusing/messy.

It isn't just that other services also have a T-prefix though, the T-prefix just doesn't have the same obvious connection with the name TrawsCymru as the TC prefix (which was orriginally proposed). And if you need more than 10 services (TC0 to TC9) then I think an X-prefix has a better ring to it than the T-prefix.

If someone wanted to remove Pencader, then you will inconvenience quite a few and take trade from the main route. It's a balance between speeding up services to attract custom but not rationalising the route so much that you miss out on passengers and have to spend much more in providing a substandard service.

It comes down to 'what is TrawsCymru' and the debate we had back in December about the X50 becoming the 50/550 in all but name. Yes New Quay (and Aberporth) need to be served, and the current service is an operationally efficient. way of doing that. But is it a strategic long-distance route? No. Should it be TrawsCymru? No.

In my view, if WAG cannot afford to provide alternative local services for Pencader they need to seriously consider whether the 40/40c really should become part of TrawsCymru.

Returning to the timetable posted above from the ITT, the hours of operation appear to have been cut back compared to the current 40/40c. Currently, the first through services reach their destinations by 08:30, which is good. But in the ITT these services are cut back to start from Lampeter/Llanybydder (although in the European version the northbound on does start from Carmarthen). The 18:40 from Aberystwyth is also truncated at Llanybydder on the domestic proposal.

Also, is there any reason why the vehicle requirement on the European version appears to have increased to 7, or are the lots listed above driver's diagrams rather than vehicle diagrams? And does a split service (to use domestic regulations) have to show the split destination on the destination display? Or could Richards Bros' X50 (for example) show X50 Aberystwyth on the destination display when leaving Cardigan despite the section north of Aberaeron being registered as a seperate X50 service with VOSA?

hourly Brecon to Hereford (though they'll not do that as it's not wholly in Wales)

The Newtown - Wrexham TrawsCymru proposal would pass through England, I think.

The Winkler report (of which some looks like it was written by Henry Winkler rather than Victoria ) had the Carmarthen to Abergavenny corridor which is frankly daft. The two ends should be hourly but Brecon to Llandovery cannot support that. Yours is a much more sensible idea!

The obvious solution to that is to run the TrawsCymru service every two hours, with normal local services in the other hours on just the sections that need hourly. I still think, when drawn on a map, the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth and Carmarthen - Abergavenny routes leave an odd looking gap between Lampeter and Llandovery. That's why I proposed a New Quay / Aberaeron / Lampeter - Abergavenny service instead.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

It isn't just that other services also have a T-prefix though, the T-prefix just doesn't have the same obvious connection with the name TrawsCymru as the TC prefix (which was orriginally proposed). And if you need more than 10 services (TC0 to TC9) then I think an X-prefix has a better ring to it than the T-prefix.

It comes down to 'what is TrawsCymru' and the debate we had back in December about the X50 becoming the 50/550 in all but name. Yes New Quay (and Aberporth) need to be served, and the current service is an operationally efficient. way of doing that. But is it a strategic long-distance route? No. Should it be TrawsCymru? No.

In my view, if WAG cannot afford to provide alternative local services for Pencader they need to seriously consider whether the 40/40c really should become part of TrawsCymru.

Returning to the timetable posted above from the ITT, the hours of operation appear to have been cut back compared to the current 40/40c. Currently, the first through services reach their destinations by 08:30, which is good. But in the ITT these services are cut back to start from Lampeter/Llanybydder (although in the European version the northbound on does start from Carmarthen). The 18:40 from Aberystwyth is also truncated at Llanybydder on the domestic proposal.

Also, is there any reason why the vehicle requirement on the European version appears to have increased to 7, or are the lots listed above driver's diagrams rather than vehicle diagrams? And does a split service (to use domestic regulations) have to show the split destination on the destination display? Or could Richards Bros' X50 (for example) show X50 Aberystwyth on the destination display when leaving Cardigan despite the section north of Aberaeron being registered as a seperate X50 service with VOSA?

The Newtown - Wrexham TrawsCymru proposal would pass through England, I think.

The obvious solution to that is to run the TrawsCymru service every two hours, with normal local services in the other hours on just the sections that need hourly. I still think, when drawn on a map, the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth and Carmarthen - Abergavenny routes leave an odd looking gap between Lampeter and Llandovery. That's why I proposed a New Quay / Aberaeron / Lampeter - Abergavenny service instead.

I'm sorry but renumbering them as X services - that won't distinguish them from the myriad of other limited stop services. I really don't see how a T prefix is such a problem - just renumber the four services in Aber and it's sorted. Of course, you could have a separate band of numbers - in the West Midlands, expresses had a 9** format whilst Green Line always had 7**

The disparity in diagrams from domestic and EU is a strange way to show it; another example of someone who's never worked in an operational environment? The idea that you'll have drivers working all day on domestic rules pinching 15 min breaks is crazy, as is the "regular pool" of drivers. Does that mean they must work solely on those routes? Clearly, the way to do it is to provide a timetable and then ask for the cost in which to do it? End of

As for destination displays, the ruling is that the registration destination should be shown for split regs in excess of 50km on domestic rules. On leaving Cardigan, it should say Aberaeron (as that is the registration) for Aberystwyth, OR Aberystwyth via Aberaeron.

"The obvious solution to that is to run the TrawsCymru service every two hours, with normal local services in the other hours on just the sections that need hourly. I still think, when drawn on a map, the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth and Carmarthen - Abergavenny routes leave an odd looking gap between Lampeter and Llandovery. That's why I proposed a New Quay / Aberaeron / Lampeter - Abergavenny service instead."

I'm sorry and apologies for being "robust" but that's the stuff of fantasy. Rather than looking at a map, I'd suggest that you travel to the area round Llandovery and Llanwrda. There's virtually no traffic in between (in fact, the market day buses are hardly busy). The topography shows a clear definition between the Towy Valley and then up and over to Tregaron or Lampeter. I'd ask you where do people want to travel to, and why?

Also, you would have (for instance) a two hourly service from Carmarthen to Abergavenny number T7, with short workings at either end numbered 280 and 43? And that's less confusing for passengers? Really?

A better still would be an hourly service (T7) from Hereford - Hay - Brecon - Sennybridge - Ystradynlais - Swansea. The 280/1 would be hourly Carm to Llandovery with two hourly projections north to Brecon. However, I don't see how WG can pay for any of that

 

[Rhydgaled]

I'm sorry but renumbering them as X services - that won't distinguish them from the myriad of other limited stop services.

True, which is why I support the original plan of using a TC-prefix as long as the network doesn't go above 10 services. With the X-prefix versus T-prefix though, neither immediately shout 'TrawsCymru' and I think X40, X50 etc. has a nice ring to it and T1, T5 doesn't.

The disparity in diagrams from domestic and EU is a strange way to show it; another example of someone who's never worked in an operational environment? The idea that you'll have drivers working all day on domestic rules pinching 15 min breaks is crazy, as is the "regular pool" of drivers. Does that mean they must work solely on those routes? Clearly, the way to do it is to provide a timetable and then ask for the cost in which to do it?

So, the service that is actually delivered will be a bit different because the bus companies' tenders are likely to suggest a better operational plan? As for the regular pool of drivers, I think they mean drivers from other routes aren't allowed to work the T(C)1, as opposed to drivers from T(C)1 not being allowed to work other routes.

As for destination displays, the ruling is that the registration destination should be shown for split regs in excess of 50km on domestic rules. On leaving Cardigan, it should say Aberaeron (as that is the registration) for Aberystwyth, OR Aberystwyth via Aberaeron.

So the 40 could say "Carmarthen via Lampeter" then. That would be much clearer than "Lampeter for Carmarthen", which suggests to passengers that they might need to change bus. When the X50 turns up with "Aberaeron with a connection for Aberystwyth" there's often at least one confused passenger asking if they have to change.

"The obvious solution to that is to run the TrawsCymru service every two hours, with normal local services in the other hours on just the sections that need hourly. I still think, when drawn on a map, the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth and Carmarthen - Abergavenny routes leave an odd looking gap between Lampeter and Llandovery. That's why I proposed a New Quay / Aberaeron / Lampeter - Abergavenny service instead."

I'm sorry and apologies for being "robust" but that's the stuff of fantasy. Rather than looking at a map, I'd suggest that you travel to the area round Llandovery and Llanwrda. There's virtually no traffic in between (in fact, the market day buses are hardly busy). The topography shows a clear definition between the Towy Valley and then up and over to Tregaron or Lampeter. I'd ask you where do people want to travel to, and why?

The bus services in the area are also rather poor, judging by a quick Google for the timetables. So, if they are empty it could be because they don't provide a useful option to those who have alternative means of travel, rather than lack of demand. I think the current poor service is one of the reasons I suggested a TrawsCambria route, if there was a more useful normal service between Lampeter and Llandovery (that could be shown as a connecting service on the TrawsCambria network map) there would be much less need for a Traws one.

Also, you would have (for instance) a two hourly service from Carmarthen to Abergavenny number T7, with short workings at either end numbered 280 and 43? And that's less confusing for passengers? Really?

That depends. What's the difference between the 280 and 281, the timetables seem to list the same stops, unless I've missed something? And I note they both make some detours. If the TrawsCymru route doesn't make the detours, then giving the remaining local service a seperate number makes sense. The X50 is now really three seperate routes (via New Quay, via New Quay and Aberporth and one trip per day each way avoiding both), which is confusing. The other week some passengers for Aberporth realised as we passed the junction that that particular trip didn't go via Aberporth. Also, way back (before the X40 became just 40) there was an Aberaeron to Cardigan service labeled X50 but traveling via Aberporth (though not New Quay). One evening I met some passengers for Aberporth who hadn't boarded it (as they thought the X50 didn't go via Aberporth, which normally would have been correct) and were thus stranded for hours at Aberaeron.

A better still would be an hourly service (T7) from Hereford - Hay - Brecon - Sennybridge - Ystradynlais - Swansea.

That might actually be a good idea instead of the proposed Swansea - Merthyr - Abergavenny TrawsCymru service mentioned in the Winkler review.