Are the 301/302/304 services commercially run by MWT.
Thanks for the info on the 301 etc, I sort of gathered as much when they introduced the double deck vehicle recently. I imagine the 512 is also commercial as the Ceredigion timetable shows only the two late services as tendered?
Is there much interworking on Mid Wales Travel's Aberystwyth services? The 03 (Bus Station - National Library - University - Seafront) service cetainly could use some I think since it has basically no recovery time at stops. Consequentially it can end up very late/early.Yes the 512 daytime is fully commercial. Interworking with the 301 Penparcau Circular
Is there much interworking on Mid Wales Travel's Aberystwyth services? The 03 (Bus Station - National Library - University - Seafront) service cetainly could use some I think since it has basically no recovery time at stops. Consequentially it can end up very late/early.
Seconded.Thanks very much for the information on MWT services, very informative and interesting.
Does it have to be an endless curcuit though? Couldn't they have a point of the route where one service terminates and the next begins (with a different bus)?Regarding the 03 YX12FRC on Monday - Friday during term times these service operate a loop every twenty minutes from 07:40 to 19:40 departures from the Promenade and therefore theres no possibility for interworking.
From what i understand it was the University which insisted on a twenty minute circular during the term time although Mid Wales Travel wished to run the service every half an hour to allow for delays which are frequent
Seconded.
Does it have to be an endless curcuit though? Couldn't they have a point of the route where one service terminates and the next begins (with a different bus)?
I don't think I would bother with the dedicated livery.A second bus in dedicated livery sounds a tad expensive.
Indeed.Problem with the Service is that Passengers travel through the Promenade where each service begins traveling to the Bus Station.
Not necessarily. How about the route is altered to go:Making the service operated by two buses would result in some dead millage as buses would have to operate to and from the bus station for no reason.
The only metions of services to Swansea I noticed in the review were the old X40/10/20 services and a Swansea Merthyr Tydfil Abergavenny service. However, aside from the five TrawsCambria route it didn't seem to be selecting any routes in particular for implementation, just saying that more are likely.A lot of that review I have not had a chance to read fully although I intend to do so when I get a chance.
I know the Hereford depot has been interested in the proposed Swansea - Brecon - Hereford service
That Swansea to Abergavenny service Merthyr Tydfil is most likely going to follow the same route as the current X4 & X75 services operated by Stagecoach & 1st Call travell although it migfht miss out some villages especially east of Merthyr Tydfil.
Yesterdays Notices and Proceedings had the following - Express Motors PG0007219/34 cancellation of service T2 from 01/04/14, yet their new published timetable clearly show the service as being from 01/04/14? Also if you look at their new timetables you cannot help but notice that it is a clear cut and paste job of Lloyds Coaches template, they even retain we run from Bangor to Aberystwyth and Dolgellau and Newtown - do they, which part of Newtown. Clearly plagurised.
The Whole website is a cut and paste of the Lloyds Coaches. If you click on the Email button you get [email protected]. And throughout the website it states Lloyds Coaches
The service will operate along the following route:
Aberystwyth (Bus Station) – Penparcau (Morrisons) – Aberaeron (Alban Square) – Temple Bar – Lampeter (High Street) – Llanwnnen – Llanybydder – Llanllwni – New Inn - Pencader (square) – Peniel – Glangwili Hospital – Carmarthen Rail Station - Carmarthen Bus Station.
Return journeys reverse of above.
Consideration may be given to diverting some journeys via Pencarreg instead of Llanwnnen.
Interesting. Does it say whether the operator(s) is/are expected to source their own vehicles or is WAG supplying them?It is confirmed that Carmarthenshire County Council has submitted an invitation to tender for the T1 Bus Route between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen replacing the current 40/40C commencing late June/ early July 2014 for 7 years
According to the ITT all buses should have Free Wifi for Passingers alongside other TrawsCymru requirements
No fix to the scheduling at Aberystwyth then (xx:40 makes the X50/50/550 xx:10, too early)? And how about the 6am to 8pm service orriginally promised? Are we going to be stuck with last bus in each direction being before 8pm for the next 7 years? Also, I notice Pencader is still on the route, that means it isn't going to be compliant with the 'no more the 50% slower than the car' goal. Shame, but I suppose it would be hard to provide an alternative service to link Pencader to both Lampeter and Carmarthen.The Services offered vary for operators wishing to use Domestic Driving Hours or the European although most services will be the same as Current (05:40 from Aberystwyth might be curtailed to Lampeter) with an optional extra journey at 21:30 to Lampeter. Adding an additional Late Journey to Aberaeron
That sounds a bit more promising, Sundays return, hope it doesn't stop there.Importantly Sunday Buses Might Be Intorduced
Plans include an
08:15, 12:15, 15:15, 19:15 Departures from Carmarthen and
08:50, 11:50, 15:50, 18:50 Departures from Aberystwyth
Shame about T1, can't we have TC1 instead, would make much more sense?
No fix to the scheduling at Aberystwyth then (xx:40 makes the X50/50/550 xx:10, too early)? And how about the 6am to 8pm service orriginally promised? Are we going to be stuck with last bus in each direction being before 8pm for the next 7 years? Also, I notice Pencader is still on the route, that means it isn't going to be compliant with the 'no more the 50% slower than the car' goal. Shame, but I suppose it would be hard to provide an alternative service to link Pencader to both Lampeter and Carmarthen.
That sounds a bit more promising, Sundays return, hope it doesn't stop there.
Domestic Hours
1. 0640 Aberystwyth 0855 Carmarthen; 0910 Carmarthen 1125 Aberystwyth;
1140 Aberystwyth 1355 Carmarthen; 1410 Carmarthen 1625 Aberystwyth;
1640 Aberystwyth 1855 Carmarthen; 1910 Carmarthen 2120 Aberystwyth
An ADDITIONAL price per day is required for an extra optional journey at around 2130 from Aberystwyth to Lampeter.
2. 0740 Aberystwyth 0955 Carmarthen; 1010 Carmarthen 1225 Aberystwyth; 1240 Aberystwyth 1455 Carmarthen; 1510 Carmarthen 1725 Aberystwyth; 1740 Aberystwyth 1955 Carmarthen
3. 0700 Llanybydder 0825 Aberystwyth; 0840 Aberystwyth 1055 Carmarthen; 1110 Carmarthen 1325 Aberystwyth; 1340 Aberystwyth 1555 Carmarthen; 1610 Carmarthen 1825 Aberystwyth; 1840 Aberystwyth 2005 Llanybydder
4. 0710 Carmarthen 0925 Aberystwyth; 0940 Aberystwyth 1155 Carmarthen; 1210 Carmarthen 1425 Aberystwyth; 1440 Aberystwyth 1655 Carmarthen; 1710 Carmarthen 1925 Aberystwyth; 1940 Aberystwyth 2050 Lampeter
5. 0655 Lampeter 0755 Carmarthen; 0810 Carmarthen 1025 Aberystwyth; 1040 Aberystwyth 1255 Carmarthen; 1310 Carmarthen 1525 Aberystwyth; 1540 Aberystwyth 1755 Carmarthen; 1810 Carmarthen 1910 Lampeter
Sundays and Bank Holidays, as specified:
0815 Carmarthen 1020 Aberystwyth; 1050 Aberystwyth 1255 Carmarthen; 1415 Carmarthen 1620 Aberystwyth; 1650 Aberystwyth 1855 Carmarthen
0850 Aberystwyth 1055 Carmarthen; 1115 Carmarthen 1320 Aberystwyth; 1450 Aberystwyth 1655 Carmarthen; 1715 Carmarthen 1920 Aberystwyth;
European Hours
1. 0640 Lampeter 0755 Carmarthen; 0910 Carmarthen 1125 Aberystwyth; 1240 Aberystwyth 1455 Carmarthen; 1610 Carmarthen 1825 Aberystwyth 1940 Aberystwyth 2050 Lampeter
2. 0640 Aberystwyth 0855 Carmarthen; 1010 Carmarthen 1225 Aberystwyth; 1340 Aberystwyth 1555 Carmarthen; 1710 Carmarthen 1925 Aberystwyth
3. 0740 Aberystwyth 0955 Carmarthen; 1110 Carmarthen 1325 Aberystwyth; 1440 Aberystwyth 1655 Carmarthen; 1810 Carmarthen 2025 Aberystwyth
4. 0840 Aberystwyth 1055 Carmarthen; 1210 Carmarthen 1425 Aberystwyth;
1540 Aberystwyth 1755 Carmarthen; 1910 Carmarthen 2125 Aberystwyth
An ADDITIONAL price per day is required for an extra optional journey at around 2130 from Aberystwyth to Lampeter.
5. 0610 Carmarthen 0825 Aberystwyth; 0940 Aberystwyth 1155 Carmarthen 1310 Carmarthen 1525 Aberystwyth; 1640 Aberystwyth 1855 Carmarthen
6. 0710 Carmarthen 0925 Aberystwyth; 1040 Aberystwyth 1255 Carmarthen 1410 Carmarthen 1625 Aberystwyth; 1740 Aberystwyth 1955 Carmarthen
7. 0810 Carmarthen 1025 Aberystwyth; 1140 Aberystwyth 1355 Carmarthen 1510 Carmarthen 1725 Aberystwyth; 1840 Aberystwyth 2055 Carmarthen
Sunday Network
0815 Carmarthen 1020 Aberystwyth; 1150 Aberystwyth 1355 Carmarthen; 1515 Carmarthen 1720 Aberystwyth; 1850 Aberystwyth 2055 Carmarthen
0850 Aberystwyth 1055 Carmarthen; 1215 Carmarthen 1420 Aberystwyth; 1550 Aberystwyth 1755 Carmarthen; 1915 Carmarthen 2120 Aberystwyth;
Vehicles:
Vehicles will be provided by the successful tenderer(s). Vehicles must seat at least 40 passengers and be not more than 3 years old at the start of the contract.
The vehicles must as a minimum meet the Trawscymru Quality Specification which is as follows:
- Low floor easy access single deck vehicle
- Euro 5 environmental standards
- Supplied in base white; T1 management group to arrange and fund provision and application of suitable external livery (therefore other external advertising will not be possible)
- Internal and external CCTV
- Electronic destination displays in accordance with DDA standards; displays to alternate between English and Welsh. If Domestic option (Option A) is awarded with route split at Lampeter, destinations for Carmarthen Lampeter journeys to additionally display for Aberystwyth and for the Aberystwyth Lampeter journeys to additionally display for Carmarthen (bilingually)

- On board Hanover visual and audio announcement system
- Internal audio-visual passenger information system
- Comfortable, high back seats at reasonable spacing allowing a comfortable passenger journey appropriate to a longer distance service (suggested minimum seat pitch 699mm)
- Space for at least one wheelchair
- Sufficient space for stowing luggage appropriate to a longer distance service
- Free Wi-fi reception for passengers within the vehicle
- Actia telematics system to be fitted, T1 management group to arrange and fund provision and fitting of suitable system
- Recharging electrical sockets optional but desired
These are the Services which are available to Operators to tender for. Each Group of Services will be tendered independently
Regarding Buses the ITT States
A regular pool of drivers must be used for the service with through fares for connecting Bwcabus Service such as the 621 Service in Pencader for Llandysul
Indeed, it is the whole numbering scheme that I think is illogical. T4 should be TC4 also. T9 can stay as T9 as in my opinion it shouldn't be part of TrawsCymru. I thought the idea behind moving away from X32, X50, 704 etc. was to get a common numbering system across the network to strengthen the brand, but the T prefix is used by normal local bus services (eg. T21 in Aberystwyth), isn't as obviously related to the TrawsCymru name as 'TC' would be and doesn't have the same ring to it as an 'X' prefix.Surely T1 fits in with T4 and T9 in the numbering scheme?
It dates from orriginal TrawsCymru launch plan. How much bigger was the budget back when TC4/T4 was launched, which was when the TC1 orriginally planned would have appeared?As for the 0600-2000 promise, doesn't that date to the days of a much greater budgetary scope.
Campaign group RANT were also complaining about the 40/40c lacking a 07:40 from Aberystwyth. The strongest of their reasons for this in my opinion was that the 701 doesn't accept tickets from 40/40c and vice versa. As for later journies being important, perhaps you should have a read of this? Particularly this sentance:In reality, the "hourly" frequency is something that a lot of areas would kill for. The only really noticeable gap is the lack of the 1818 Lampeter to Aber journey, and is a later journey from Carmarthen is that important?
Later services are needed from Aberystwyth too. Back when it was Arriva-run, I had someone approach me arround 6pm (I think) wanting to go to Carmarthen. I couldn't help her since the last bus had left at 17-something and I doubted you could get a train the long way round at that time of night either.A country which gives no guarantee that we can travel between our major centres after seven oclock, and where to do so risks spending the night on Carmarthen Station is signalling a clear message: failure.
Agreed the rule is arbitrary, but it was presented as an upper limit. It said that ideally it should be no more than 33% slower. Again, no hard evidence to back it up but when I read it I thought 33% sounded about right to me. The most ecconomic solution I have dreamt up would be to have a Carmarthen - Llandysul service (the orriginal T1 tender, which Arriva blocked with CymruExpress, also included such a service, known as L1) and leave passengers going north from Pencader towards Lampeter with Bwcabus. The latter runs the risk of inconvieniencing too many passengers, but doesn't Llandysul (is that a similar size to Pencader?) have very few services other than Bwcabus?Missing Pencader out would be pretty foolish as it's THE major traffic generator south of Lampeter and, as you say, getting a replacement would be very expensive. The 50% rule is pretty arbitrary with no empirical evidence to back it up.
No reallocation of TrawsCymru long-distance resources from the short-distance airport express then . Not likely to get the fancy looking seats that I'm so keen to sample.Regarding Buses the ITT States
Vehicles will be provided by the successful tenderer(s)
Indeed, it is the whole numbering scheme that I think is illogical. T4 should be TC4 also. T9 can stay as T9 as in my opinion it shouldn't be part of TrawsCymru. I thought the idea behind moving away from X32, X50, 704 etc. was to get a common numbering system across the network to strengthen the brand, but the T prefix is used by normal local bus services (eg. T21 in Aberystwyth), isn't as obviously related to the TrawsCymru name as 'TC' would be and doesn't have the same ring to it as an 'X' prefix.
It dates from orriginal TrawsCymru launch plan. How much bigger was the budget back when TC4/T4 was launched, which was when the TC1 orriginally planned would have appeared?
Campaign group RANT were also complaining about the 40/40c lacking a 07:40 from Aberystwyth. The strongest of their reasons for this in my opinion was that the 701 doesn't accept tickets from 40/40c and vice versa. As for later journies being important, perhaps you should have a read of this? Particularly this sentance: Later services are needed from Aberystwyth too. Back when it was Arriva-run, I had someone approach me arround 6pm (I think) wanting to go to Carmarthen. I couldn't help her since the last bus had left at 17-something and I doubted you could get a train the long way round at that time of night either.
Agreed the rule is arbitrary, but it was presented as an upper limit. It said that ideally it should be no more than 33% slower. Again, no hard evidence to back it up but when I read it I thought 33% sounded about right to me. The most ecconomic solution I have dreamt up would be to have a Carmarthen - Llandysul service (the orriginal T1 tender, which Arriva blocked with CymruExpress, also included such a service, known as L1) and leave passengers going north from Pencader towards Lampeter with Bwcabus. The latter runs the risk of inconvieniencing too many passengers, but doesn't Llandysul (is that a similar size to Pencader?) have very few services other than Bwcabus?
No reallocation of TrawsCymru long-distance resources from the short-distance airport express then . Not likely to get the fancy looking seats that I'm so keen to sample.
Brecon - Swansea and Brecon - Hereford on an hourly frequency would be great especially if some journeys operated through to Hereford/Swansea rather than terminating at Brecon.
The 280/281 has long required a 3rd vehicle and an hourly frequency giving certain parts of the route a clockface 2 hourly service
It isn't just that other services also have a T-prefix though, the T-prefix just doesn't have the same obvious connection with the name TrawsCymru as the TC prefix (which was orriginally proposed). And if you need more than 10 services (TC0 to TC9) then I think an X-prefix has a better ring to it than the T-prefix.The Aber locals could and should be renumbered in that case. A national network numbering shouldn't be dictated by that, and if the network ever grows to form more than 9 routes then you'll have TC10 and TC12 which might prove a bit confusing/messy.
It comes down to 'what is TrawsCymru' and the debate we had back in December about the X50 becoming the 50/550 in all but name. Yes New Quay (and Aberporth) need to be served, and the current service is an operationally efficient. way of doing that. But is it a strategic long-distance route? No. Should it be TrawsCymru? No.If someone wanted to remove Pencader, then you will inconvenience quite a few and take trade from the main route. It's a balance between speeding up services to attract custom but not rationalising the route so much that you miss out on passengers and have to spend much more in providing a substandard service.
The Newtown - Wrexham TrawsCymru proposal would pass through England, I think.hourly Brecon to Hereford (though they'll not do that as it's not wholly in Wales)
The obvious solution to that is to run the TrawsCymru service every two hours, with normal local services in the other hours on just the sections that need hourly. I still think, when drawn on a map, the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth and Carmarthen - Abergavenny routes leave an odd looking gap between Lampeter and Llandovery. That's why I proposed a New Quay / Aberaeron / Lampeter - Abergavenny service instead.The Winkler report (of which some looks like it was written by Henry Winkler rather than Victoria ) had the Carmarthen to Abergavenny corridor which is frankly daft. The two ends should be hourly but Brecon to Llandovery cannot support that. Yours is a much more sensible idea!
It isn't just that other services also have a T-prefix though, the T-prefix just doesn't have the same obvious connection with the name TrawsCymru as the TC prefix (which was orriginally proposed). And if you need more than 10 services (TC0 to TC9) then I think an X-prefix has a better ring to it than the T-prefix.
It comes down to 'what is TrawsCymru' and the debate we had back in December about the X50 becoming the 50/550 in all but name. Yes New Quay (and Aberporth) need to be served, and the current service is an operationally efficient. way of doing that. But is it a strategic long-distance route? No. Should it be TrawsCymru? No.
In my view, if WAG cannot afford to provide alternative local services for Pencader they need to seriously consider whether the 40/40c really should become part of TrawsCymru.
Returning to the timetable posted above from the ITT, the hours of operation appear to have been cut back compared to the current 40/40c. Currently, the first through services reach their destinations by 08:30, which is good. But in the ITT these services are cut back to start from Lampeter/Llanybydder (although in the European version the northbound on does start from Carmarthen). The 18:40 from Aberystwyth is also truncated at Llanybydder on the domestic proposal.
Also, is there any reason why the vehicle requirement on the European version appears to have increased to 7, or are the lots listed above driver's diagrams rather than vehicle diagrams? And does a split service (to use domestic regulations) have to show the split destination on the destination display? Or could Richards Bros' X50 (for example) show X50 Aberystwyth on the destination display when leaving Cardigan despite the section north of Aberaeron being registered as a seperate X50 service with VOSA?
The Newtown - Wrexham TrawsCymru proposal would pass through England, I think.
The obvious solution to that is to run the TrawsCymru service every two hours, with normal local services in the other hours on just the sections that need hourly. I still think, when drawn on a map, the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth and Carmarthen - Abergavenny routes leave an odd looking gap between Lampeter and Llandovery. That's why I proposed a New Quay / Aberaeron / Lampeter - Abergavenny service instead.
True, which is why I support the original plan of using a TC-prefix as long as the network doesn't go above 10 services. With the X-prefix versus T-prefix though, neither immediately shout 'TrawsCymru' and I think X40, X50 etc. has a nice ring to it and T1, T5 doesn't.I'm sorry but renumbering them as X services - that won't distinguish them from the myriad of other limited stop services.
So, the service that is actually delivered will be a bit different because the bus companies' tenders are likely to suggest a better operational plan? As for the regular pool of drivers, I think they mean drivers from other routes aren't allowed to work the T(C)1, as opposed to drivers from T(C)1 not being allowed to work other routes.The disparity in diagrams from domestic and EU is a strange way to show it; another example of someone who's never worked in an operational environment? The idea that you'll have drivers working all day on domestic rules pinching 15 min breaks is crazy, as is the "regular pool" of drivers. Does that mean they must work solely on those routes? Clearly, the way to do it is to provide a timetable and then ask for the cost in which to do it?
So the 40 could say "Carmarthen via Lampeter" then. That would be much clearer than "Lampeter for Carmarthen", which suggests to passengers that they might need to change bus. When the X50 turns up with "Aberaeron with a connection for Aberystwyth" there's often at least one confused passenger asking if they have to change.As for destination displays, the ruling is that the registration destination should be shown for split regs in excess of 50km on domestic rules. On leaving Cardigan, it should say Aberaeron (as that is the registration) for Aberystwyth, OR Aberystwyth via Aberaeron.
The bus services in the area are also rather poor, judging by a quick Google for the timetables. So, if they are empty it could be because they don't provide a useful option to those who have alternative means of travel, rather than lack of demand. I think the current poor service is one of the reasons I suggested a TrawsCambria route, if there was a more useful normal service between Lampeter and Llandovery (that could be shown as a connecting service on the TrawsCambria network map) there would be much less need for a Traws one.Rhydgaled said:"The obvious solution to that is to run the TrawsCymru service every two hours, with normal local services in the other hours on just the sections that need hourly. I still think, when drawn on a map, the Carmarthen - Aberystwyth and Carmarthen - Abergavenny routes leave an odd looking gap between Lampeter and Llandovery. That's why I proposed a New Quay / Aberaeron / Lampeter - Abergavenny service instead."
I'm sorry and apologies for being "robust" but that's the stuff of fantasy. Rather than looking at a map, I'd suggest that you travel to the area round Llandovery and Llanwrda. There's virtually no traffic in between (in fact, the market day buses are hardly busy). The topography shows a clear definition between the Towy Valley and then up and over to Tregaron or Lampeter. I'd ask you where do people want to travel to, and why?
That depends. What's the difference between the 280 and 281, the timetables seem to list the same stops, unless I've missed something? And I note they both make some detours. If the TrawsCymru route doesn't make the detours, then giving the remaining local service a seperate number makes sense. The X50 is now really three seperate routes (via New Quay, via New Quay and Aberporth and one trip per day each way avoiding both), which is confusing. The other week some passengers for Aberporth realised as we passed the junction that that particular trip didn't go via Aberporth. Also, way back (before the X40 became just 40) there was an Aberaeron to Cardigan service labeled X50 but traveling via Aberporth (though not New Quay). One evening I met some passengers for Aberporth who hadn't boarded it (as they thought the X50 didn't go via Aberporth, which normally would have been correct) and were thus stranded for hours at Aberaeron.Also, you would have (for instance) a two hourly service from Carmarthen to Abergavenny number T7, with short workings at either end numbered 280 and 43? And that's less confusing for passengers? Really?
That might actually be a good idea instead of the proposed Swansea - Merthyr - Abergavenny TrawsCymru service mentioned in the Winkler review.A better still would be an hourly service (T7) from Hereford - Hay - Brecon - Sennybridge - Ystradynlais - Swansea.