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Tried to pay by card on a Northern Rail Train
- Thread starter Rianoa
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I understand that the OP has telephoned Northern, who have confirmed that UFNs can be issued for return journeys. The UFN in question is for the price of the return journey so Northern have advised to send a covering letter explaining the situation with payment for the UFN to draw the matter to a close.
I can also confirm that the return journey (where the Guard told the OP that UFNs are only for single journeys) was a Northern crew.
I can also confirm that the return journey (where the Guard told the OP that UFNs are only for single journeys) was a Northern crew.
Pardon me if I have the wrong end of the stick, but you seem to be suggesting that before the passenger pays for a ticket a separate contract regarding methods of payment already exists?!
Do you know what the definition of a contract is, and what needs to be in place for a contract to exist?
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michael769
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Yes - and I discussed the mechanism of the offer and the acceptance in the thread I linked to. If a contract is not entered into how can a ToC force anyone boarding at an unmanned station to pay?
So are you saying that methods of payment are a separate contract (which would of course be blatant b*******!), or an express term of the contract covering travel?
michael769
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I am saying that the agreed means of payment as advertised to the passenger by the ToC form part of the contract.
Ah, so I did get the wrong end of the stick then! Sorry!
What gets me about this though, is that I can take these 'online only' cards quite easily. Well, I say quite easily - I have to ring up the HSBC authorisation service to get permission for the transaction. I then swipe the card through Avantix, enter the code given by the HSBC and issue the ticket. Takes about 60 seconds on the phone (it's an automated keypad service) and if I'm being honest, it is a slight pain in the arse sometimes especially in a low signal area, but in the grand scheme of things it really isn't much of a problem!
Solent&Wessex
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Agreed, It's a bit of a pain but not the end of the world and takes about 60 seconds (or perhaps slightly longer now as they have recently changed it). I do it frequently and without problem. I really don't know why Northern don't organise themselves to use this system too?
Also to note is that if the UFN is marked Return it is only valid on Northern services, not those of other TOCs as someone tried to use one the other day on one of my trains.
michael769
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It would be far better if ToCs issued their staff with online terminals, which are now widely available. I know that on a tain you don't get 100% coverage, so they would not always work, but coverage is good enough in most areas that they would work most of the time, and would make a major difference.
I suspect the look on certain individuals faces when their card went though would be quite enjoyable.
They must be losing a fair bit to chargeback due to not having online auth. i recall from my retail days that card fraudsters would specifically target smaller offline outlets as they knew the cards remained usable for longer.
I suspect the look on certain individuals faces when their card went though would be quite enjoyable.
They must be losing a fair bit to chargeback due to not having online auth. i recall from my retail days that card fraudsters would specifically target smaller offline outlets as they knew the cards remained usable for longer.
When a traveller purchases a ticket, s/he has entered an 'EXPRESS CONTRACT' with the rail operator. Assuming the traveller has paid the correct amount, then the transport provider is obliged to convey the holder of the ticket from the station of origin to the intended destination station, nowhere else and nothing more.
When a traveller boards at a station without facilities an 'IMPLIED CONTRACT' already exists and from the TOC perspective, that contract confirms that the rail operator will convey the intending traveller on their intended journey from the station at which they boarded to the intended destination station in return for payment of the correct fare due. That fare is due in full at the time of travel and not later.
For the traveller, the implied contract confirms that the traveller will pay the fare due on demand (failure or refusal to do so may result in a criminal charge) and that the traveller has with them the acceptable means to pay that fare at the time of travel. Both parties are bound by the terms of that implied contract.
We can argue 'until the cows come home' about what the TOCs should spend their money on and I agree that far better technologies are available than those currently used by many, but it is still up to the vendor of a service or goods, to determine what payment methods they will accept and again I agree that the TOCs could do better in advertising what is and what is not acceptable, but they will point out that this is advertised in their terms & conditions.
The one method that they cannot realistically reject is UK cash.
They could easily all do a hell of a lot better by simply printing what is and what is not acceptable on timetables and at the same time investing in the technology that allows them to collect more of the fares due.
Just yesterday I put a proposal forward that would probably prevent as much as 90% of what is usually treated as Railcard fraud, but I'm not going to hold my breath
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The big issue is and remains online-only debit cards. These are very often not identified as such by the issuers (in at least one case, for fear of offending a customer by stating they considered him a bad credit risk). For most customers they only find out when the card doesn't work on a train. (I have a device which can identify the cards, as well as one of the offending cards.)
We can go on and on about replacing Avantix Mobile but those machines were built to last and will be run into the ground before anyone even thinks of starting the multi-million pound project that replacing them will be. And even when they are replaced, there will remain issues when mobile phone coverage isn't available, which if anything would be worse as the machines would probably decline everything then!
MattRobinson
Member
Some ticket machines have built in card readers while others have separate card readers. Couldn't they all use separate online card readers?
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Yes, I agree. It will be a long time before that kind of investment is met and I'm sure that technical problems will remain because of outside influences or failures.
The main thing for me though, which is achievable short term and at relatively minimal cost, is for the TOCs to make what is and what is not acceptable very much clearer for the intending traveller.
Exactly, VISA will not permit these cards being described differently, and the scheme rules will not allow it.
I wonder whether a short form UFN could be devised, which would include the required details for a standard UFN plus space, and agreement, for the card details to be recorded, these could then be processed at head office. Then of course the possibility of attempting the transaction on a few different daays still exists, and if that fails the traditional UFN process could be followed. Thoughts?
Probably violates PCIDSS, and puts the cardholder in uncertainty as to whether their transaction has been paid for or not, as many holders of the problem cards are financially excluded and may not be in the habit of using online banking.
221129
Established Member
FGW has posters at some booking offices advising what sort of cards won't be accepted on trains.
Exactly, it isn't for VISA or any other card provider to tell the TOCs what posters they can and cannot display.
221129
Established Member
I will try and get a picture of it later when i am out.
TG
Member
there are some cards knocking about at the moment which are clearly marked as "cash cards" these are only for withdrawing cash from a ATM but people repetedly try to purchace train tickets onboard with them and of course.... they decline
these people surely must know the type of card they have and that they can not be used to purchase goods like a debit or credit card.... sadly, we are seeing more and more of these.....
these people surely must know the type of card they have and that they can not be used to purchase goods like a debit or credit card.... sadly, we are seeing more and more of these.....
Do you enjoy carrying grimy bits of metal with you everywhere? What purpose does that serve?
That should be interesting!
221129
Established Member
How do you mean?
I've seen a couple with those type of cards, and their demeanour suggests they really are trying it on.
It should be interesting to see what the sign specifically says.
221129
Established Member
Ahh Sorry I misunderstood.
A few years ago there was a group of people with these payg credit cards going around buying tickets and trying to get the conductor to type in the card no and not swipe. One accosted me at East croydon asking for a frist class return to coventry. I took one look at the card and declined. The person did not even moan, just said, ok and walked off. The cards were issued by banks that had never been heard of, and belive me I know a few banks. A hint on many cards is raised numbers. If the numbers are flat to the card its online only.
SJ
SJ
Doubt there is any probably about it...that would almost certainly violate PCIDSS
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