[trivia] Jounerys between two stations with highest number of non valid routes on National Rail Enq

[infobleep]

After @Keiron pointed out, on the routing guide update thread that Feltham to Surbtion was not a vaild via Clapham Junction, I looked it up on National Rail Enquiries App and was amazed at the number of journeys that would show up but were not valid on a single ticket. They didn't even give a combined ticket price. I'm aware people use Oyster and contactless and can make valid but National Rail Enquiries doesn't show that, so I'm excluding it from this trivia question.

In this case there was about 6 of 7 journey possbilieis an hour and only 1 or 2 were valid, with the remaining 5 being not valid on a single ticket.

So can you beat that?

No via points are allowed for this and you must be using National Rail Enquiries,, which, in addition to the routing guide, is the official source for checking if your train itinerary is valid.

 

[alistairlees]

After @Keiron pointed out, on the routing guide update thread that Feltham to Surbtion was not a vaild via Clapham Junction, I looked it up on National Rail Enquiries App and was amazed at the number of journeys that would show up but were not valid on a single ticket. They didn't even give a combined ticket price. I'm aware people use Oyster and contactless and can make valid but National Rail Enquiries doesn't show that, so I'm excluding it from this trivia question.

In this case there was about 6 of 7 journey possbilieis an hour and only 1 or 2 were valid, with the remaining 5 being not valid on a single ticket.

So can you beat that?

No via points are allowed for this and you must be using National Rail Enquiries,, which, in addition to the routing guide, is the official source for checking if your train itinerary is valid.

Well you can always try South Milford to Filey. There are no through fares for this journey, but the NRE website suggests buying the North Country Rover for £99.10 for a single journey for every (two-hourly, roughly). You could get split tickets (South Milford to Brough and Brough to Filey) for about £28.00 instead.

 

[SickyNicky]

I've always used Kidderminster to Swindon to test this. The only Permitted Route is via Worcester then on the direct line from Cheltenham, but the connections rarely stack up for this, and NRE usually sends you via Bristol or Brum, both of which require split tickets.

 

[Bookd]

It seems odd that Feltham to Surbiton does not have a fare via CJ as this is the obvious way to go, but it may be because it is all in the LT zone.
The other route would be via Weybridge which would cost more and take longer.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

It seems odd that Feltham to Surbiton does not have a fare via CJ as this is the obvious way to go, but it may be because it is all in the LT zone.
The other route would be via Weybridge which would cost more and take longer.

The "not via London" ticket is valid via all fastest routes I can tell.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

The "not via London" ticket is valid via all fastest routes I can tell.

I can't see any that are valid, without going via Brentford, which is a long way round, it must be about the same as via Chertsey. There is no via Weybridge fare for Feltham, unlike some other places such as Egham. It can't be intentional can it?

 

[greyman42]

Well you can always try South Milford to Filey. There are no through fares for this journey, but the NRE website suggests buying the North Country Rover for £99.10 for a single journey for every (two-hourly, roughly). You could get split tickets (South Milford to Brough and Brough to Filey) for about £28.00 instead.

Why are there no through fares for this straightforward journey. Is it intentional or is it an error?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I can't see any that are valid, without going via Brentford, which is a long way round, it must be about the same as via Chertsey. There is no via Weybridge fare for Feltham, unlike some other places such as Egham. It can't be intentional can it?

Ah sorry, mixed that up. But it is at least valid via CJ in addition to via Kingston (the shortest route).

 

[infobleep]

Well you can always try South Milford to Filey. There are no through fares for this journey, but the NRE website suggests buying the North Country Rover for £99.10 for a single journey for every (two-hourly, roughly). You could get split tickets (South Milford to Brough and Brough to Filey) for about £28.00 instead.

There seems to be 2 to 3 trains an hour on this route. Most have a price, although rather high but some don't.

I've always used Kidderminster to Swindon to test this. The only Permitted Route is via Worcester then on the direct line from Cheltenham, but the connections rarely stack up for this, and NRE usually sends you via Bristol or Brum, both of which require split tickets.

These throws up two trains an hour and no pricing. Less than Feltham to Surbtion but then this is a longer route and not a popular surburban railway.

Ah sorry, mixed that up. But it is at least valid via CJ in addition to via Kingston (the shortest route).

Feltham to Surbtion isn't valid vsi Clapham Junction on a point ot point to ticket. Unless you are referring to some where else.

 

[infobleep]

Feltham to Oxshott. 3 changes and 1 hour 5w minutes via the valid route. 1 hour and 2 minutes and just 2 change via the invalid route on a point to point ticket.

In both cases there are two trains an hour though. However the 11:46 gets overtaken by the 12:05 and the 12:05 arrives into Oxshott 30 minutes before the valid 11:46.

Interestingly in this case National Rail Enquiries App shows the train that gets overtaken as well as the one that is fataee but invalid.

It doesn't always do this.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Feltham to Surbtion isn't valid vsi Clapham Junction on a point ot point to ticket. Unless you are referring to some where else.

Uh, map combination TW+EF, as shown on page 642 of the Yellow Pages, would beg to differ!

 

[infobleep]

Uh, map combination TW+EF, as shown on page 642 of the Yellow Pages, would beg to differ!

If that is the case, why doesn't a care show up for it on the National Rail Enquiries App? A bug in the electronic guide?

 

[Statto]

It seems odd that Feltham to Surbiton does not have a fare via CJ as this is the obvious way to go, but it may be because it is all in the LT zone.
The other route would be via Weybridge which would cost more and take longer.

I've just done a journey planner search Feltham-Surbiton on National Rail Enquiries, seems going via Clapham Junction with a Not Via London ticket is a valid route & does have a fare for the journey[£6.70 anytime return], you can do the other alternative via Twickenham & New Malden that takes well over an hour because of the wait at New Malden

 

[globetrotter]

If I go to the Southern site and search for a single ticket from Feltham to Surbiton next Tuesday, train leaving after 10 AM and use Advanced Search to indicate via Clapham Junction, curiously it offers me only two trains in the evening, both at £3.90 (fare is "Not via London").

If I can go in the evening for £3.90 then surely I can also go at any other time of the day?

 

[alistairlees]

If I go to the Southern site and search for a single ticket from Feltham to Surbiton next Tuesday, train leaving after 10 AM and use Advanced Search to indicate via Clapham Junction, curiously it offers me only two trains in the evening, both at £3.90 (fare is "Not via London").

If I can go in the evening for £3.90 then surely I can also go at any other time of the day?

View attachment 62399

View attachment 62400

Yes the ticket is valid at any time of the day. This is just a fault with the journey planner used by Southern.

 

[alistairlees]

If that is the case, why doesn't a care show up for it on the National Rail Enquiries App? A bug in the electronic guide?

Journey planner. Same one as on Southern.

 

[ThisIsSurbiton]

Uh, map combination TW+EF, as shown on page 642 of the Yellow Pages, would beg to differ!

TW looks like it's only valid now via the Hounslow loop, that was one of the changes noted here: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/national-routeing-guide-update.99396/page-33#post-3988197. There is no link from Twickenham to Feltham along the main line on that map, so only the occasional journey that is fastest via the loop shows up. I don't think the journey planners are at fault.

 

[kieron]

Yes, Feltham-Surbiton is allowed via Clapham Junction, but only if you use the Hounslow Loop.

You can do better than that, though. Beckenham Junction-Redhill* has plenty of trains, and has perfectly good "via Tramlink 2" tickets available for it, but NRE can't suggest any fares.

And I think I should mention Helsby-Runcorn. I haven't worked out how often a valid itinerary shows up, but there's only a couple of weeks left for this one anyway.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for these links to open correctly.

 

[Ianno87]

I looked up Harrogate to Windermere earlier, for which NRE seems to reckon the only permitted route is Harrogate - Leeds - Hellifield - Lancaster - Oxenholme - Windermere

But far more journeys are suggested via Leeds/Hebden Bridge/Preston, and even some via Settle and Carlisle, due to the low frequency of the Leeds-Lancaster service.

 

[JB_B]

I looked up Harrogate to Windermere earlier, for which NRE seems to reckon the only permitted route is Harrogate - Leeds - Hellifield - Lancaster - Oxenholme - Windermere

But far more journeys are suggested via Leeds/Hebden Bridge/Preston, and even some via Settle and Carlisle, due to the low frequency of the Leeds-Lancaster service.

Both pairs of routeing points for this journey ( Leeds Group/Oxenholme and York/Oxenholme) fail the NFM64 fares check so there are no mapped routes. That's why you only get offered the infrequent services over the shortest route ( via Clapham ) on a single ticket. There should be an easement to at least allow the other mapped routes available from Leeds ( via Accrington or via Manchester Group.)

 

[infobleep]

I looked up Harrogate to Windermere earlier, for which NRE seems to reckon the only permitted route is Harrogate - Leeds - Hellifield - Lancaster - Oxenholme - Windermere

But far more journeys are suggested via Leeds/Hebden Bridge/Preston, and even some via Settle and Carlisle, due to the low frequency of the Leeds-Lancaster service.

Interestingly they are more journeys today, due to replacement buses.

On a week day though one of the no ticket suggestions is the 18:18. The 18:46 is also not allowed.

However they suggest another 18:18. This one takes 16 hours 23 minutes and costs £52.50. You arrive 10:41 the next day.

This is shown as an anytime return but not sure why it needs to be a return. I'm looking on the National Rail Enquiries App.

Apart from tickets that are not valid, there is also a 21:45 that also gets you in at 10:41. This to is the same price.

At 21:45 there is also a journey that gets in at 07:49.

Givdn these two are faster than the 18:18 which takes over 16 hours, I'm surprised it shows up.

There is also a 6:03 the next morning that also gets you there for 10:41. Alas no valid ticket is shown. Still if you fancy a night in Lancaater or Skipton, there are choices!

 

[infobleep]

Wallington to East Croydon has 6 services listed an hour but in all cases it is suggested you get a tram and a point to point ticket isn't avilable on the tram.

It's only a 10 minute walk between stations and walking is surely good for one's health, although maybe that's debatable in Croydon! Either way it's a shame they don't come up with the talking route. I wonder how one could force a walking route? I suspect it's not possible.

 

[kieron]

There should be an easement to at least allow the other mapped routes available from Leeds ( via Accrington or via Manchester Group.)

It doesn't have to be an easement (although Harrogate already has one of those). Giving Harrogate-Windermere tickets a "via Leeds" route seems to be more in line with current trends.