National Routeing Guide update

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by RJ, 16 Apr 2014.

  1. sheff1

    sheff1 Established Member

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    On current fares Accrington is, as you would expect, cheaper than Burnley. Rather surprising that it was different in NFM64.
     
  2. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    I don't think NRE shows Oyster fares in the first place. I haven't seen any web sites at all which show which tickets are valid for a specific itinerary..
    Sorry, yes.

    Burnley Manchester Road-Chorley has an ANY PERMITTED SDS for 500.
    Accrington-Chorley has an ANY PERMITTED SDS listed for 590.

    According to the NFM64 list, Accrington-Chorley is dearer than tickets from both neighbouring stations (Huncoat-Chorley at 500 and Rishton-Chorley at 530). I don't know why, but it does make things less convenient here.
     
  3. MikeWh

    MikeWh Established Member Senior Fares Advisor

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    It does. In the heading block where it suggests "1st class from ..." or "Travelcard fares from ..." it also says "with Oyster or Contactless (pay as you go) from ..."
     
  4. lyndhurst25

    lyndhurst25 Member

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    As I have suggested before, maybe it would be sensible that both NFM64 and current fares should be used the Fares Check? If either passes then that's okay.
     
  5. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Sorry, I was thinking something showing Oyster in relation to what you've actually searched for. That appears to just give the lowest possible Oyster price from the origin to the destination, without looking at routes or the time of day or anything like that.

    I think it would be confusing if that bit of the result page did consider any easements, as there would always be prices via Sutton or wherever on Oyster even for a journey which was quicker via Epsom.
     
  6. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    I should add that easement 700847 had the route code corrected this afternoon, so it now says "(00131) PLUS HS1" rather than 00130. There are no other changes.
     
  7. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more changes were made to the routeing guide yesterday.
    Changes from 190307 (252) to 190401 (253).

    Change to routeing points:
    Lose Stafford Group (G65).
    Gain Stafford (STA).
    Remove 'Norton Bridge (NTB)' from 'Stafford Group (G65)'
    Remove 'Stafford (STA)' from 'Stafford Group (G65)'

    Station Association changes:
    Norton Bridge (NTB) is no longer associated with Stafford Group (G65).

    Easement removed:
    700350 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from Norton Bridge via Crewe may double back via Stafford. This easement applies in both directions.
    Norton Bridge has been deleted from the routeing guide.

    Easement changed:
    700451 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from, to or via Mitcham Junction to Streatham Common and beyond destinations beyond Balham in possession of tickets routed "Not via London" may double back between Balham, Wandsworth Common and Clapham Junction. This easement applies in both directions.
    This easement already permitted Mitcham Junction-Clapham Junction-Streatham Common as part of a journey on a "not via London" ticket. It now also permits Mitcham Junction-Clapham-Streatham Hill.

    As it only affects "not via London" tickets, I'm not too sure who would benefit most from this change.
     
  8. Deafdoggie

    Deafdoggie Established Member

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    Norton Bridge can be deleted altogether surely, not just removed from Stafford Group?
     
  9. alistairlees

    alistairlees Member

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    It (Norton Bridge) has been removed from the timetable data. That and the routeing guide (and the fares feed) are all separate things.
     
  10. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Norton Bridge still seems to exist as a timing point in schedules though, at least for those trains that actually pass the station site, e.g. this one: http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?uid=Y81804&tips=on Trains coming from Stone towards Stafford that use the new flyover and join the slow lines are timed at the new Little Bridgeford Junction instead. Often stations remain as timing points for many decades or longer after they've been closed (examples on the Great Western would be Wantage Road, Challow and Uffington, which are all still timing points between Didcot and Swindon). But if Norton Bridge isn't in the data as a station any more then it can not be counted as a doubleback in any circumstances, which is good news for passenger flexibility (apart from the fact that Stafford Group meant it wasn't realy an issue!).
     
  11. Deafdoggie

    Deafdoggie Established Member

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    Etruia is still a timing point, as dare I say, are Wedgwood and Barlaston. But I don't think timing points have any status other than timing points.
     
  12. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Indeed, and there are plenty of timing points that aren't and never have been stations.
     
  13. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    It's interesting that there are sites of old stations as timing points but not every station in use is a timing point.

    Back to Ostyer fares. These don't show up on the National Rail Enquiries App

    Whether they show up on the mobile Web Site I've not looked.
     
  14. MichaelAMW

    MichaelAMW Member

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    I'm going to stick my neck out and say that most stations are not timing points for trains that don't stop. You have to be careful not to let Real Time Trains fool you as the station times are often only their estimates. Compare these two schedules for the 2020 Waterloo - Exeter tonight and in a week's time:

    http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W90721/2019/04/03/advanced
    http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W90721/2019/04/10/advanced

    RTT only adds the interpolations a day or two ahead, so the first has 21 times shown on RTT but the second only 5, between Waterloo and Woking, which are the 5 timing points in the working timetable. Long non-stop runs sometimes have very few timing points at stations but several at junctions, where pathing is needing to be considered most. Many timing points away from stations are only used if the train is deviating from a "straight through" route, e.g. West London Junction near Waterloo for movements to/from Clapham Yard. Some timing points only apply to certain lines if only they have possible pathing considerations, e.g. Raynes Park for the slow lines only, as only they have the junction for Motspur Park.
     
  15. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Every reference to it in the routeing guide has been removed.
     
  16. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Good point that I had forgotten.
     
  17. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    I've taken a quick look today's new yellow pages pdf

    ( http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/yellow_pages.pdf )

    AFAICS ...

    Watford Junction/Milton Keynes to Derby Group/Nottingham;
    Northampton to Derby Group; and
    Milton Keynes to Tamworth
    Add: EB+DG

    Watford Junction to Leeds;and
    Watford Junction to Wakefield Group
    Add: EB+PL

    Watford Junction/Milton Keynes to Doncaster
    Add: EB+BB

    Watford Junction to York
    Add: EB+BY

    I think in each case the main effect is to introduce mapped routes via Birmingham Group where none existed before. (I'm guessing that this could be engineering works related rather than a generous gesture by RDG).
     
    Last edited: 10 Apr 2019
  18. _toommm_

    _toommm_ Established Member

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    Also seems that Denby Dale (and stations to Huddersfield) to Sheffield has been fixed so it is now only valid on direct Northern trains through to Sheffield, whereas some journey planners previously offered itineraries via Leeds and Piccadilly.
     
  19. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    As JB_B said, there were some more changes published on Wednesday.

    Changes from 190401 (253) to 190410 (254).

    Permitted Route changes:

    Derby Group (G09) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC) gain DG+EB
    Derby Group (G09) to Northampton (NMP) gain DG+EB
    Derby Group (G09) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain DG+EB
    Doncaster (DON) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC) gain BB+EB
    Doncaster (DON) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain BB+EB
    Milton Keynes Central (MKC) to Nottingham Group (G43) gain EB+DG
    Milton Keynes Central (MKC) to Tamworth Low Level (TAM) gain EB+DG
    Nottingham Group (G43) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain DG+EB
    These journeys now have mapped routes via Birmingham.

    I notice that none of these changes affect Bletchley. This isn't, for the most part, because there were already permitted routes to Bletchley via Birmingham.

    Leeds Group (G16) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain PL+EB
    This journey now has mapped routes:
    via Burton-on-Trent; and
    via Narborough.
    It had previously only had mapped routes via Manchester and via London.

    Wakefield Group (G30) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain PL+EB
    Watford Junction (WFJ) to York (YRK) gain EB+BY
    These journeys now have mapped routes via Rugby.
    They previously only had ones via London.

    Easement changes:

    Removed:
    700232 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from/to/via Bristol Temple Meads via Chepstow may double back between Severn Tunnel Junction and Newport. This easement applies in both directions.
    This means that something like Bristol-Gloucester isn't valid via Newport. I don't know how useful having an easement for this was, with trains stopping at Severn Tunnel Junction on both routes. This change doesn't affect tickets to Lydney.

    Added:
    700848 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from or via Banbury to Lapworth may doubleback via Dorridge. This doubleback easement applies in both directions
    There are more trains to Dorridge than to Lapworth, so this gives extra journey opportunities.

    700849 (Map) Due to engineering diversions of Cross Country services on Sunday 02 June 2019, this map easement will allow journeys via Newport (south Wales)

    700850 (Doubleback) Due to engineering works on Sunday 02 June 2019, Cross Country services are diverted via Newport (South Wales). This doubleback easement will allow journeys to pass twice through Severn Tunnel junction.
    There are no trains through Yate then, so these permit an alternative route.

    700852 (Map) Due to engineering works between 19-22 April 2019 and 04-06 May 2019, London Euston will be closed. Tickets to or via London Euston to or via Manchester Piccadilly priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED will be valid via Leeds on LNER and TPE services. This map easement will apply in both directions
    This easement affects "any permitted" ticket, but not (say) "via Manchester" or "via London" ones. It does seem to be fairly generous with origin & destination, but you do need to travel via Leeds (rather than, say, Sheffield and Doncaster) to benefit.

    There are alternative arrangements for people who need to use the WCML for one reason or another, of course.
     
  20. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    IMHO this is the wrong easement for the job. The problem with Banbury to Lapworth via Dorridge isn't the doubleback. In fact journey planners do not detect any doubleback: Lapworth isn't a mandatory timing point for trains that don't stop there, so it's not an issue. The mapped part of the route, from Banbury to Warwick Group, is also perfectly permitted and valid and does not need any easements.

    The problem is the local part of the journey, from the destination routeing point to the overall destination, i.e. from Hatton (the last station in Warwick Group) to Lapworth. This is not permitted via Dorridge as it's more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route. A more effective way to make these journeys permitted would be to add a local easement to say that journeys from Hatton to Lapworth may travel via Dorridge, but no further.
     
  21. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    Last edited: 15 Apr 2019
  22. SickyNicky

    SickyNicky Verified Rep - TrainSplit.com

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    Guilty! Well, it's a nice walk along the canal for the dog (well, apart from the adjacent M40).
     
  23. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Sorry, yes. Page F10 in the routeing guide says (with my emphasis):
    It's not clear to me what sort of journey to Lapworth could benefit from this. Nothing has been published about the reason for this easement, but my first guess is that this is a mistake.

    I notice that there are also other doubleback easements which may be intended for the local part of a journey. For instance, easement 700448 says:

    Wilmcote, Stratford Parkway and Stratford Upon Avon are a routeing group, so the easement works with those. Claverdon and Bearley aren't, and it doesn't work in the same way. They only have five WMT trains a week, though.

    And easement 81 says:

    The nearest routeing point is over 100 miles away. NRE seems to behave as if it was a local easement, though.
     

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