National Routeing Guide update

sheff1

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On current fares Accrington is, as you would expect, cheaper than Burnley. Rather surprising that it was different in NFM64.
 
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kieron

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I'm guessing, but it might have had the effect of preventing Oyster fares appearing on NRE when looking at journeys via Epsom. Certainly it will have had no effect on Oyster itself, but may have reduced the need to issue PFs at Epsom.
I don't think NRE shows Oyster fares in the first place. I haven't seen any web sites at all which show which tickets are valid for a specific itinerary..
No doubt I have missed something obvious, but why isn't Accrington a suitable routeing point ?
Sorry, yes.

Burnley Manchester Road-Chorley has an ANY PERMITTED SDS for 500.
Accrington-Chorley has an ANY PERMITTED SDS listed for 590.

According to the NFM64 list, Accrington-Chorley is dearer than tickets from both neighbouring stations (Huncoat-Chorley at 500 and Rishton-Chorley at 530). I don't know why, but it does make things less convenient here.
 

MikeWh

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I don't think NRE shows Oyster fares in the first place. I haven't seen any web sites at all which show which tickets are valid for a specific itinerary..
It does. In the heading block where it suggests "1st class from ..." or "Travelcard fares from ..." it also says "with Oyster or Contactless (pay as you go) from ..."
 

lyndhurst25

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On current fares Accrington is, as you would expect, cheaper than Burnley. Rather surprising that it was different in NFM64.
As I have suggested before, maybe it would be sensible that both NFM64 and current fares should be used the Fares Check? If either passes then that's okay.
 

kieron

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It does. In the heading block where it suggests "1st class from ..." or "Travelcard fares from ..." it also says "with Oyster or Contactless (pay as you go) from ..."
Sorry, I was thinking something showing Oyster in relation to what you've actually searched for. That appears to just give the lowest possible Oyster price from the origin to the destination, without looking at routes or the time of day or anything like that.

I think it would be confusing if that bit of the result page did consider any easements, as there would always be prices via Sutton or wherever on Oyster even for a journey which was quicker via Epsom.
 

kieron

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I should add that easement 700847 had the route code corrected this afternoon, so it now says "(00131) PLUS HS1" rather than 00130. There are no other changes.
 

kieron

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Some more changes were made to the routeing guide yesterday.
Changes from 190307 (252) to 190401 (253).

Change to routeing points:
Lose Stafford Group (G65).
Gain Stafford (STA).
Remove 'Norton Bridge (NTB)' from 'Stafford Group (G65)'
Remove 'Stafford (STA)' from 'Stafford Group (G65)'

Station Association changes:
Norton Bridge (NTB) is no longer associated with Stafford Group (G65).

Easement removed:
700350 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from Norton Bridge via Crewe may double back via Stafford. This easement applies in both directions.
Norton Bridge has been deleted from the routeing guide.

Easement changed:
700451 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from, to or via Mitcham Junction to Streatham Common and beyond destinations beyond Balham in possession of tickets routed "Not via London" may double back between Balham, Wandsworth Common and Clapham Junction. This easement applies in both directions.
This easement already permitted Mitcham Junction-Clapham Junction-Streatham Common as part of a journey on a "not via London" ticket. It now also permits Mitcham Junction-Clapham-Streatham Hill.

As it only affects "not via London" tickets, I'm not too sure who would benefit most from this change.
 

Indigo2

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Norton Bridge still seems to exist as a timing point in schedules though, at least for those trains that actually pass the station site, e.g. this one: http://www.brtimes.com/#!train?uid=Y81804&tips=on Trains coming from Stone towards Stafford that use the new flyover and join the slow lines are timed at the new Little Bridgeford Junction instead. Often stations remain as timing points for many decades or longer after they've been closed (examples on the Great Western would be Wantage Road, Challow and Uffington, which are all still timing points between Didcot and Swindon). But if Norton Bridge isn't in the data as a station any more then it can not be counted as a doubleback in any circumstances, which is good news for passenger flexibility (apart from the fact that Stafford Group meant it wasn't realy an issue!).
 

Deafdoggie

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Etruia is still a timing point, as dare I say, are Wedgwood and Barlaston. But I don't think timing points have any status other than timing points.
 

infobleep

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It's interesting that there are sites of old stations as timing points but not every station in use is a timing point.

Back to Ostyer fares. These don't show up on the National Rail Enquiries App

Whether they show up on the mobile Web Site I've not looked.
 

MichaelAMW

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It's interesting that there are sites of old stations as timing points but not every station in use is a timing point.

Back to Ostyer fares. These don't show up on the National Rail Enquiries App

Whether they show up on the mobile Web Site I've not looked.
I'm going to stick my neck out and say that most stations are not timing points for trains that don't stop. You have to be careful not to let Real Time Trains fool you as the station times are often only their estimates. Compare these two schedules for the 2020 Waterloo - Exeter tonight and in a week's time:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W90721/2019/04/03/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W90721/2019/04/10/advanced

RTT only adds the interpolations a day or two ahead, so the first has 21 times shown on RTT but the second only 5, between Waterloo and Woking, which are the 5 timing points in the working timetable. Long non-stop runs sometimes have very few timing points at stations but several at junctions, where pathing is needing to be considered most. Many timing points away from stations are only used if the train is deviating from a "straight through" route, e.g. West London Junction near Waterloo for movements to/from Clapham Yard. Some timing points only apply to certain lines if only they have possible pathing considerations, e.g. Raynes Park for the slow lines only, as only they have the junction for Motspur Park.
 

infobleep

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I'm going to stick my neck out and say that most stations are not timing points for trains that don't stop. You have to be careful not to let Real Time Trains fool you as the station times are often only their estimates. Compare these two schedules for the 2020 Waterloo - Exeter tonight and in a week's time:

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W90721/2019/04/03/advanced
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/W90721/2019/04/10/advanced

RTT only adds the interpolations a day or two ahead, so the first has 21 times shown on RTT but the second only 5, between Waterloo and Woking, which are the 5 timing points in the working timetable. Long non-stop runs sometimes have very few timing points at stations but several at junctions, where pathing is needing to be considered most. Many timing points away from stations are only used if the train is deviating from a "straight through" route, e.g. West London Junction near Waterloo for movements to/from Clapham Yard. Some timing points only apply to certain lines if only they have possible pathing considerations, e.g. Raynes Park for the slow lines only, as only they have the junction for Motspur Park.
Good point that I had forgotten.
 

JB_B

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I've taken a quick look today's new yellow pages pdf

( http://iblocks-rg-publication.s3-website-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/yellow_pages.pdf )

AFAICS ...

Watford Junction/Milton Keynes to Derby Group/Nottingham;
Northampton to Derby Group; and
Milton Keynes to Tamworth
Add: EB+DG

Watford Junction to Leeds;and
Watford Junction to Wakefield Group
Add: EB+PL

Watford Junction/Milton Keynes to Doncaster
Add: EB+BB

Watford Junction to York
Add: EB+BY

I think in each case the main effect is to introduce mapped routes via Birmingham Group where none existed before. (I'm guessing that this could be engineering works related rather than a generous gesture by RDG).
 
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_toommm_

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Also seems that Denby Dale (and stations to Huddersfield) to Sheffield has been fixed so it is now only valid on direct Northern trains through to Sheffield, whereas some journey planners previously offered itineraries via Leeds and Piccadilly.
 

kieron

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As JB_B said, there were some more changes published on Wednesday.

Changes from 190401 (253) to 190410 (254).

Permitted Route changes:

Derby Group (G09) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC) gain DG+EB
Derby Group (G09) to Northampton (NMP) gain DG+EB
Derby Group (G09) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain DG+EB
Doncaster (DON) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC) gain BB+EB
Doncaster (DON) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain BB+EB
Milton Keynes Central (MKC) to Nottingham Group (G43) gain EB+DG
Milton Keynes Central (MKC) to Tamworth Low Level (TAM) gain EB+DG
Nottingham Group (G43) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain DG+EB
These journeys now have mapped routes via Birmingham.

I notice that none of these changes affect Bletchley. This isn't, for the most part, because there were already permitted routes to Bletchley via Birmingham.

Leeds Group (G16) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain PL+EB
This journey now has mapped routes:
via Burton-on-Trent; and
via Narborough.
It had previously only had mapped routes via Manchester and via London.

Wakefield Group (G30) to Watford Junction (WFJ) gain PL+EB
Watford Junction (WFJ) to York (YRK) gain EB+BY
These journeys now have mapped routes via Rugby.
They previously only had ones via London.

Easement changes:

Removed:
700232 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from/to/via Bristol Temple Meads via Chepstow may double back between Severn Tunnel Junction and Newport. This easement applies in both directions.
This means that something like Bristol-Gloucester isn't valid via Newport. I don't know how useful having an easement for this was, with trains stopping at Severn Tunnel Junction on both routes. This change doesn't affect tickets to Lydney.

Added:
700848 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from or via Banbury to Lapworth may doubleback via Dorridge. This doubleback easement applies in both directions
There are more trains to Dorridge than to Lapworth, so this gives extra journey opportunities.

700849 (Map) Due to engineering diversions of Cross Country services on Sunday 02 June 2019, this map easement will allow journeys via Newport (south Wales)

700850 (Doubleback) Due to engineering works on Sunday 02 June 2019, Cross Country services are diverted via Newport (South Wales). This doubleback easement will allow journeys to pass twice through Severn Tunnel junction.
There are no trains through Yate then, so these permit an alternative route.

700852 (Map) Due to engineering works between 19-22 April 2019 and 04-06 May 2019, London Euston will be closed. Tickets to or via London Euston to or via Manchester Piccadilly priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED will be valid via Leeds on LNER and TPE services. This map easement will apply in both directions
This easement affects "any permitted" ticket, but not (say) "via Manchester" or "via London" ones. It does seem to be fairly generous with origin & destination, but you do need to travel via Leeds (rather than, say, Sheffield and Doncaster) to benefit.

There are alternative arrangements for people who need to use the WCML for one reason or another, of course.
 

Indigo2

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700848 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from or via Banbury to Lapworth may doubleback via Dorridge. This doubleback easement applies in both directions
IMHO this is the wrong easement for the job. The problem with Banbury to Lapworth via Dorridge isn't the doubleback. In fact journey planners do not detect any doubleback: Lapworth isn't a mandatory timing point for trains that don't stop there, so it's not an issue. The mapped part of the route, from Banbury to Warwick Group, is also perfectly permitted and valid and does not need any easements.

The problem is the local part of the journey, from the destination routeing point to the overall destination, i.e. from Hatton (the last station in Warwick Group) to Lapworth. This is not permitted via Dorridge as it's more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route. A more effective way to make these journeys permitted would be to add a local easement to say that journeys from Hatton to Lapworth may travel via Dorridge, but no further.
 

SickyNicky

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kieron

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The problem is the local part of the journey, from the destination routeing point to the overall destination, i.e. from Hatton (the last station in Warwick Group) to Lapworth. This is not permitted via Dorridge as it's more than 3 miles longer than the shortest route.
Sorry, yes. Page F10 in the routeing guide says (with my emphasis):
Doubleback easements, which permit passing twice through the same station
on the portion of the journey between the origin and destination routeing points.
It's not clear to me what sort of journey to Lapworth could benefit from this. Nothing has been published about the reason for this easement, but my first guess is that this is a mistake.

I notice that there are also other doubleback easements which may be intended for the local part of a journey. For instance, easement 700448 says:

700448 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from or via Leamington Spa to Claverdon, Bearley, Wilmcote, Stratford Parkway or Stratford Upon Avon may double back between Hatton, Lapworth, Dorridge, Widney Manor and Solihull. This easement applies in both directions.
Wilmcote, Stratford Parkway and Stratford Upon Avon are a routeing group, so the easement works with those. Claverdon and Bearley aren't, and it doesn't work in the same way. They only have five WMT trains a week, though.

And easement 81 says:

000081 (Doubleback) Journeys to Wick may double back between Thurso and Georgemas Junction. This easement applies in both directions.
The nearest routeing point is over 100 miles away. NRE seems to behave as if it was a local easement, though.
 

kieron

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Some more changes were published in the routeing guide this afternoon:

Changes from 190410 (254) to 190501 (255).

Permitted Route changes:
Barnsley (BNY) to Halifax Group (G39) gain LY SY lose WK WY
This journey no longer has mapped routes via the direct line between Wakefield and Mirfield. This remains the shortest route from Barnsley to Halifax.

Derby Group (G09) to Llandudno Junction (LLJ) gain TV+NJ
This journey now has mapped via both Tamworth and Stoke-on-Trent.

Feltham (FEL) to Surbiton (SUR) lose WV
This removes the mapped routes via Chertsey.

The only remaining mapped routes are via Chiswick. The shortest route from Feltham to Surbiton goes via Kingston, and most or all of the affected routes can go that way.

The mapped routes via Richmond were removed in 2015, even though it's usually the fastest route.

Halifax Group (G39) to Sheffield (SHF) gain DH+BB DP+CE MR+MB lose SY WK WY+SY
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Goole;
via Selby;
via both Bradford and Penistone; or
via both Penistone and Wakefield.
It now has mapped routes:
via the direct line between Pontefract and Doncaster;
via both Brighouse and Leeds; and
ones via Dewsbury which do not go via Penistone.

Huddersfield Group (G40) to Sheffield (SHF) gain MB NP+BB NP+JL NP+YK PL lose MR+DW SY TP+SY WK
This journey no longer has mapped routes:
via Chinley;
via Goole;
via Selby;
via both Swinton and Barnsley;
via both Swinton and Church Fenton; or
via Dewsbury, Pontefract and Doncaster.
It now has mapped routes via the direct line between Pontefract and Doncaster.

Easement changes:

Removed:

700123 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Chathill, Alnmouth, Acklington, Widdrington, Pegswood, Morpeth and Cramlington to Berwick Upon Tweed and beyond, and in possession of tickets routed 'DIRECT' may not travel via Newcastle. This easement applies in both directions.

700485 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Lichfield Trent Valley, Tamworth and Nuneaton to Watford Junction, Willesden Junction, London Euston and beyond in possession of tickets routed "Direct" may not travel via Birmingham New Street. This easement applies in both directions.
The route codes of the affected tickets were changed in 2016 and 2017. For 700123, most or all are now "not via Newcastle", and for 700485 it's "not via Coventry or Birmingham".

700414 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Sheffield or Dore to Huddersfield, Dewsbury or Leeds in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted", "Not via Leeds" or "via Sheffield" may not travel via Manchester Stations. This easement applies in both directions.
The mapped routes between Huddersfield and Sheffield were changed today. I don't know off-hand if a Sheffield-Leeds ticket was ever valid via Manchester.

700771 (Fare route) Journeys between Salisbury and Swindon priced on route (00136) VIA MELKSHAM may travel via Bath Spa on the following dates; 19 - 22 November 2018 and 22 December 2018 - 04 January 2019. This fare route easement applies in both directions

700839 (Map) During engineering diversions from 17 February to 08 March 2019, this temporary map easement will create permitted routes between London Paddington and Penzance via Castle Cary, Yeovil Junction and Honiton. For tickets priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED, (00411) AP SLOUGH, (00820) GREAT WESTERN ONLY (00842) VIA TAUNTON. It will operate in both directions

700843 (Fare route) During engineering diversions 17 February to 08 March 2019, tickets routed (00842) VIA TAUNTON may travel via Yeovil Pen Mill and Castle Cary. This easement applies in both directions

700845 (Map) During engineering works on Sundays 17 March 2019, 14 and 21 April 2019, Cross Country services will be diverted between Reading and Southampton via Wokingham, Guildford and Havant. This map easement will apply in both directions.
These are temporary easements for which the dates have passed now.

Added:

700853 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Frodsham or Helsby to Eastham Rake may travel via Chester. This routeing point easement will override NFM64 fares checking and operate in both directions
Based on the text, this does nothing easement 700038 doesn't do. Perhaps it seems different to ticket web sites?

Changed:

700486 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Melksham to Bradford On Avon, Avoncliff, Freshford, Bath Spa and beyond may not travel via Westbury, except during engineering disruption between the 08 - 16 July 2017. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.
This just removes a temporary exception from the easement. There are a few other easements with these.
 

_toommm_

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700414 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Sheffield or Dore to Huddersfield, Dewsbury or Leeds in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted", "Not via Leeds" or "via Sheffield" may not travel via Manchester Stations. This easement applies in both directions.The mapped routes between Huddersfield and Sheffield were changed today. I don't know off-hand if a Sheffield-Leeds ticket was ever valid via Manchester.
Denby Dale (and stations to Huddersfield) to Sheffield were able to be routed via Leeds or Manchester on journey planners (with the via points), and indeed was offered as the last journey on a Sunday night without via points.

Not that I ever used it, but it did allow you to get a Manchester to Sheffield season for a quarter of the price of the actual season ;)
 

Kite159

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Feltham (FEL) to Surbiton (SUR) lose WVThis removes the mapped routes via Chertsey.

The only remaining mapped routes are via Chiswick. The shortest route from Feltham to Surbiton goes via Kingston, and most or all of the affected routes can go that way.

The mapped routes via Richmond were removed in 2015, even though it's usually the fastest route.
Although I suspect most passengers travelling from Feltham to Surbiton via Clapham Junction would either be using oyster/contactless or will use the first available service from Feltham, which can be the faster via Richmond services from Reading.
 

infobleep

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Although I suspect most passengers travelling from Feltham to Surbiton via Clapham Junction would either be using oyster/contactless or will use the first available service from Feltham, which can be the faster via Richmond services from Reading.
Auelet if they don't use Oyster or contactless though, they would be travelling on an invalid route.

Also if Oyster and contactless are so popular and make the journey valid, why the need to remove the route via Clapham Junction?

I looked it up on National Rail Enquiries. The slowlewt route is 1h 18 minutes and that is valid. 5he fatsest route is 43 minutes and that isn't valid. There are other options around 59 minutes that aren't valid.

The only other valid journey time is 1 hour 14 minutes.

Incidentally off peak, every other hour you get 2 valid journeys and in the inbetween hours it's just one.

In all occasions there seems to be about 5 other trains which show up per hour but those are not valid. I can feel a trivia question coming on here. That's for another thread though.
 

kieron

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Although I suspect most passengers travelling from Feltham to Surbiton via Clapham Junction would either be using oyster/contactless or will use the first available service from Feltham, which can be the faster via Richmond services from Reading.
I can think of three situations off-hand where I would not expect you to use Oyster.

  1. You make this journey frequently. A weekly Feltham-Surbiton ticket costs less than 8 undiscounted off peak singles, so a season ticket could easily be the cheapest option.
  2. Your actual journey is between stations associated with Feltham and Surbiton where Oyster isn't accepted. Feltham-Oxshott is an example where Oyster isn't accepted and (from what I can tell) you can only use permitted routes between Feltham and Surbiton for the bulk of your journey.
  3. Engineering works mean that it's quicker to go through Surrey.

With regard to your second alternative, searching nationalrail.co.uk* shows that simply joining the first train at Feltham is no guarantee that you are entitled to use a Feltham-Surbiton ticket for your journey.

* You may need to delete any nationalrail.co.uk cookies you have for this like to open correctly.
 

MikeWh

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Feltham (FEL) to Surbiton (SUR) lose WV
This removes the mapped routes via Chertsey.

The only remaining mapped routes are via Chiswick. The shortest route from Feltham to Surbiton goes via Kingston, and most or all of the affected routes can go that way.

The mapped routes via Richmond were removed in 2015, even though it's usually the fastest route.
Well I'm thoroughly confused by this. The maps are TW+EF where TW is the important one. The points on the map are:

Feltham - Hounslow - Richmond - Barnes - Clapham Junction - London
Twickenham - Richmond - Barnes - Clapham Junction - London

This would appear to allow routes via Richmond, except you can't get from Hounslow to Richmond without going through Twickenham. Is this actually an error, or are they trying to prevent something else?
 

JB_B

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Well I'm thoroughly confused by this. The maps are TW+EF where TW is the important one. The points on the map are:

Feltham - Hounslow - Richmond - Barnes - Clapham Junction - London
Twickenham - Richmond - Barnes - Clapham Junction - London

This would appear to allow routes via Richmond, except you can't get from Hounslow to Richmond without going through Twickenham. Is this actually an error, or are they trying to prevent something else?
I think the apparent Hounslow-Richmond link should disappear if you zoom in sufficiently - although I agree it's not obvious when you first look at map TW.

map_tw.png sur_fel.png
 

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