National Routeing Guide update

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by RJ, 16 Apr 2014.

  1. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    No clue if it's a mistake or not but no one has challenged it or if they have it's been thrown out.
     
  2. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    There are a few like that. If you click on a line on the map page it should tell you where it's going. It doesn't tell you when there's another line underneath it, though.
     
  3. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some changes were published for map sequences this afternoon.
    Changes from 190501 (255) to 190508 (256).

    Permitted Route changes:

    Feltham (FEL) to New Malden (NEM) gain BU+TW+EF lose WX+SU
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via London; or
    via Kingston.

    The latter includes the shortest route from Feltham to New Malden.

    Feltham (FEL) to Surbiton (SUR) gain WX lose TW+EF
    This journey now has mapped routes via Richmond.

    Richmond (RMD) to Weybridge Group (G82) gain TW+LE
    No effect.

    Surbiton (SUR) to Twickenham (TWI) gain EF+TW lose WX
    This journey no longer has mapped routes via Chiswick.

    This reverses the change made on 29 May 2015, which was part of a series of changes made "following customer comment".

    The shortest route between Surbiton and Twickenham goes via Kingston. I don't know if there has ever been a map combination which included this route.
     
  4. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    That is really positive. Thanks whoever made and agreed the change. It makes sense from my reading of it.
     
  5. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more changes have been published this afternoon. Some of these are to support the Chester-Runcorn-Liverpool trains due to start on Sunday.

    Changes from 190508 (256) to 190515 (257).

    Permitted Route changes:

    Chester (CTR) to Hunts Cross Group (G70) gain JO+CV
    Chester (CTR) to Liverpool Group (G18) gain JO+CV
    Hunts Cross Group (G70) to Llandudno Junction (LLJ) gain CV+JO
    Hunts Cross Group (G70) to Shotton (SHT) gain CV+JO
    Liverpool Group (G18) to Llandudno Junction (LLJ) gain CV+JO
    Liverpool Group (G18) to Shotton (SHT) gain CV+JO
    These journeys now have mapped routes via Runcorn, using Chester-Frodsham-Runcorn-Liverpool South Parkway or the reverse.

    Map changes:
    JO: Gain Chester to/from Runcorn
    This map is used in 818 routes.
    Runcorn has been added to this map, with a connection to Chester.

    As well as being used in the routes above, this change affects the following:

    Chester (CTR) to Bedford Midland (BDM)
    Chester (CTR) to Bletchley (BLY)
    Chester (CTR) to Hazel Grove (HAZ)
    Chester (CTR) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC)
    Chester (CTR) to Northampton (NMP)
    Chester (CTR) to Rugby (RUG)
    Chester (CTR) to Watford Junction (WFJ)
    Chester (CTR) to Willesden Junction (WIJ)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Bedford Midland (BDM)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Bletchley (BLY)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Hazel Grove (HAZ)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Northampton (NMP)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Rugby (RUG)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Watford Junction (WFJ)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Willesden Junction (WIJ)
    Shotton (SHT) to Bedford Midland (BDM)
    Shotton (SHT) to Bletchley (BLY)
    Shotton (SHT) to Hazel Grove (HAZ)
    Shotton (SHT) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC)
    Shotton (SHT) to Northampton (NMP)
    Shotton (SHT) to Rugby (RUG)
    Shotton (SHT) to Watford Junction (WFJ)
    Shotton (SHT) to Willesden Junction (WIJ)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Bedford Midland (BDM)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Bletchley (BLY)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Hazel Grove (HAZ)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Northampton (NMP)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Rugby (RUG)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Watford Junction (WFJ)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Willesden Junction (WIJ)
    Each of these now has mapped routes via Runcorn, using Chester-Frodsham-Runcorn-Crewe.

    I had a look at the next National Rail Timetable to see how these changes sat with the shortest route rule. Table 81 includes a timetable between Chester and Liverpool via Runcorn, but it doesn't include any distances for it. This means that the shortest distance between (for instance) Ellesmere Port and Runcorn doesn't go via the Halton curve.

    Easement changes:

    Removed:
    700842 (Fare route) Due to engineering work diversions on Sundays in February and March 2019, tickets for journeys priced on route (00637) VIA SOUTHAMPTON may travel via Eastleigh. This fare route easement applies in both directions.

    700852 (Map) Due to engineering works between 19-22 April 2019 and 04-06 May 2019, London Euston will be closed. Tickets to or via London Euston to or via Manchester Piccadilly priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED will be valid via Leeds on LNER and TPE services. This map easement will apply in both directions
    The dates for these temporary easements have passed.

    Changed:

    030039 (Fare route) Journeys via High Wycombe priced on routes (00305) VIA HIGH WYCOMBE, (00362) VIA HIGH WYC&SHR, (00363) VIA HWYC & BHM, (00364) CH & TFW ONLY, (00402) CH & CONNECTIONS, (00432) CH & CON VIA SHR and (00435) AP CH AND TFW ONLY may travel via Aylesbury
    This may be what the easement was intended to do all along, although I notice that nationalrail.co.uk gives some itineraries via High Wycombe and Aylesbury.

    700722 (Circuitous Route) Customer travelling on tickets priced on fare route (00046) CHILTERN ONLY and (00048) CHILTERN ONLY to or via Aylesbury may not travel via London Marylebone. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
    According to brfares.com, both routes are used for Oxford-Aylesbury tickets, with identical prices.
     
  6. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Is there a general point here, that when a new passenger route opens, such as via the Halton Curve above, they won’t alter the routeing guide until the very last minute. Presumably because the fares systems don’t easily cope with future changes from a certain due date?

    Hence there’s little point in discussing fares as seen in journey planners a couple of months ahead of the opening, as has been done a few weeks back in a couple of threads about the Halton curve?
     
  7. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Fares can be set up with a start date a long time in the future. Transport for Wales have already done so with various route Runcorn or route Transport for Wales Only tickets to and from Liverpool. Changing the routing guide however is a different matter!
     
  8. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    Any Northern Only fares Chester/Warrington to stations towards Rochdale/Halifax/Bradford/Leeds appeared yet in prep for the start of the new service?
     
  9. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    That’s what I was thinking. The fares are sorted, but journey planners just can’t or won’t offer them until the routeing rules are adjusted?
     
  10. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Yes. Unlike fares, which have start and end dates, there is only ever one version of the Routeing Guide in force, covering all current and future journeys. But I really don't see any reason why it can't be updated in good time. The necessary map links between Chester and Runcorn routeing points could simply have been added to the relevant maps, and it would not affect any journeys before the new service started.

    Perhaps the delay was due to the requirement to seek DfT and Transport Focus approval for these changes to the Routeing Guide? ;) As many people on here know, consultation with Transport Focus and approval by the DfT is required for every change. People have made FOI requests about this before which made clear that the process wasn't happening, but the justification was being that the changes were only correcting errors in the Routeing Guide.

    But it surely can be argued that the missing Chester to Runcorn link is not an error - it wasn't there before because there wasn't a regular service that way - and therefore its addition should be subject to consultation and approval?! The consultation could, for example, be used to consider all journey opportunities that might be improved by the new service and make sure the benefits were fully realised by appropriate changes to the Routeing Guide (in an ideal world obviously :)).
     
  11. ThisIsSurbiton

    ThisIsSurbiton Member

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    That's it - everything about fares, route codes and restrictions is dated. In the routeing guide data, easements can have dates (for engineering work, etc.) but the core of it, the map sequences and maps themselves, don't have any dates. A new bit of track shouldn't be a problem, it can be added to maps before it's in use, unless perhaps it now forms the shortest route between two places and the old route then becomes invalid, and plenty of journeys rely on being the shortest rather than being on a map.
     
  12. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Good point but in practice not a problem - the shortest route calculation uses station-to-station mileage data which is entirely separate from the map links, which are between pairs of routeing points and specific to each map.
     
  13. Cheshire Rover

    Cheshire Rover Member

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    I've already booked Helsby to MCV on Northern Only advance singles for June.
     
  14. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more changes were published on Wednesday.
    Changes from 190515 (257) to 190522 (258).

    Station Association changes:

    Meridian Water (MRW) is now associated with Cheshunt (CHN) and Tottenham Hale (TOM).
    Warrington West (WAW) is now associated with Hunts Cross Group (G70) and Warrington Group (G31).
    These are the routeing points I'd expect for the new stations. Each lies at the next junction along in one direction or the other. There are some fares from each of these new stations now. As neither station's NLC is used in the 1996 fare list, it's not clear to me when either routeing point would be valid for a journey.

    Permitted Route changes:
    Bletchley (BLY) to Derby Group (G09) gain EB+DG
    Bletchley (BLY) to Nottingham Group (G43) gain EB+DG
    Bletchley (BLY) to Tamworth Low Level (TAM) gain EB+DG
    These journeys now have mapped routes via Birmingham.

    Effingham Junction (EFF) to Newcastle (NCL) gain DK+EC
    This journey now has mapped routes via Leatherhead.

    Easement changes:

    Removed:

    700163 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Acton Bridge, Hartford, Winsford, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel, Goostrey or Nantwich to Warrington Stations, Frodsham, Runcorn East, Widnes, Sankey, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook or Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'DIRECT' may not travel via Manchester Oxford Road.

    700180 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Acton Bridge, Hartford, Winsford, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel, Goostrey or Nantwich to Warrington Central, Warrington Bank Quay, Frodsham, Runcorn East, Widnes, Sankey, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook and Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'Direct' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.

    700181 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Crewe to Sankey, Widnes, Padgate or Birchwood in possession of tickets routed 'DIRECT' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    I don't know if this is the reason, but I don't think any tickets are sold with a route of "Direct" now.

    Added:

    700854 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Amersham, Chalfont & Latimer, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth and Harrow on the Hill, via central London to Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy, Biggleswade, Arlesley, Letchworth Garden City, Baldock, Ashwell & Morden Royston (Herts), Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton on tickets priced (00000) ANY PERMITTED, may travel via Hitchin. This routeing point easement will overcome NFM64 fares checking that is preventing journey planners show itineraries. This easement applies in both directions.
    Easement 30025 says:

    030025 (Routeing Point) Journeys from Amersham to Finsbury Park and stations beyond may travel via London Terminals. This easement applies in both directions.​

    While the only NFM64 fares to/from stations between Amersham and Harrow on the Hill go to other stations on the Aylesbury line, taking these easements together means that there are mapped routes for these journeys.

    700855 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from Hassocks to Belmont, Banstead or Epsom Downs on tickets priced (00700) NOT VIA London may travel via Clapham Junction and doubleback through Selhurst. This easement applies in both directions
    There are cheaper "not via Clapham Junction" tickets (although nothing with a route which indicates Tramlink validity). It's sometimes faster and sometimes slower to go via Clapham Junction, so this means that a "not via London" ticket is valid either way.

    700856 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Edinburgh or Haymarket to Stirling or Alloa may not interchange at Croy. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
    Changing trains at Croy does give additional journey opportunities, but, from what I can tell, relatively few of these let you reach your destination more than a few minutes before the next direct train.

    700857 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Pershore, Evesham and Honeybourne to Ramsgate, Sandwich, Deal, Walmer and Martin Mill may travel on tickets priced (00000) ANY PERMITTED via Oxford. This routeing point easement applies in both directions
    This is an oddity of the NMF64 table, with SDS fares from Oxford priced at 3460 against 3450 for Pershore, Evesham and Honeybourne. Changing "any permitted" to "via Oxford" (or "via London", I think) would be another way to allow these to be used on mapped routes.

    030140 (Local) Customers travelling to Kennett from the west may doubleback via Bury St Edmunds. Also, customers travelling from Kennett to or via Bury st Edmunds, may travel via Newmarket. This local easement applies in both directions.
    I think this means someone going to Kennett from the west may double back via Bury St Edmunds and Newmarket.

    I don't know off-hand which journeys this change helps with. Trains through Newmarket aren't that frequent.
    700176 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Crewe to Warrington West, Sankey, Widnes, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook and Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'Warrington' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    700177 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Holmes Chapel to Warrington West, Sankey, Widnes, Warrington, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook and Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'Crewe' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    700178 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Goostrey to Warrington West, Sankey, Widnes, Warrington, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook and Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'Crewe' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    700179 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Sandbach to Warrington West, Sankey in possession of tickets routed 'Warrington' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    Warrington West (or rather, "Warrington West, ") has been added to every easement which refers to Sankey.

    700753 (Circuitous Route) Journeys from or via (that originate beyond) Shenfield routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED priced on routes (00000 or 01000) ANY PERMITTED and (00051) VIA SHENFIELD to Brentwood, Harold Wood, Gidea Park, Romford, Chadwell Heath, Goodmayes, Seven Kings, Ilford, Manor Park, Forest Gate and Maryland may not travel via Stratford (London) or London Liverpool Street. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
    I don't know about "via Shenfield" tickets from these stations, but quite a few of the local routes are now 'any - permitted' ones.
     
  15. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Possibly. According to Wikipedia, Chiltern trains to Oxford started on 11 December 2016. Oxford was added to the GC map (with a link to Princes Risborough) 3 days before then.

    There were a few easements to do with that route around that time, though, and I haven't tried to work out how they affected things.
     

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