National Routeing Guide update

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by RJ, 16 Apr 2014.

  1. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    No clue if it's a mistake or not but no one has challenged it or if they have it's been thrown out.
     
  2. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    There are a few like that. If you click on a line on the map page it should tell you where it's going. It doesn't tell you when there's another line underneath it, though.
     
  3. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some changes were published for map sequences this afternoon.
    Changes from 190501 (255) to 190508 (256).

    Permitted Route changes:

    Feltham (FEL) to New Malden (NEM) gain BU+TW+EF lose WX+SU
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via London; or
    via Kingston.

    The latter includes the shortest route from Feltham to New Malden.

    Feltham (FEL) to Surbiton (SUR) gain WX lose TW+EF
    This journey now has mapped routes via Richmond.

    Richmond (RMD) to Weybridge Group (G82) gain TW+LE
    No effect.

    Surbiton (SUR) to Twickenham (TWI) gain EF+TW lose WX
    This journey no longer has mapped routes via Chiswick.

    This reverses the change made on 29 May 2015, which was part of a series of changes made "following customer comment".

    The shortest route between Surbiton and Twickenham goes via Kingston. I don't know if there has ever been a map combination which included this route.
     
  4. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    That is really positive. Thanks whoever made and agreed the change. It makes sense from my reading of it.
     
  5. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more changes have been published this afternoon. Some of these are to support the Chester-Runcorn-Liverpool trains due to start on Sunday.

    Changes from 190508 (256) to 190515 (257).

    Permitted Route changes:

    Chester (CTR) to Hunts Cross Group (G70) gain JO+CV
    Chester (CTR) to Liverpool Group (G18) gain JO+CV
    Hunts Cross Group (G70) to Llandudno Junction (LLJ) gain CV+JO
    Hunts Cross Group (G70) to Shotton (SHT) gain CV+JO
    Liverpool Group (G18) to Llandudno Junction (LLJ) gain CV+JO
    Liverpool Group (G18) to Shotton (SHT) gain CV+JO
    These journeys now have mapped routes via Runcorn, using Chester-Frodsham-Runcorn-Liverpool South Parkway or the reverse.

    Map changes:
    JO: Gain Chester to/from Runcorn
    This map is used in 818 routes.
    Runcorn has been added to this map, with a connection to Chester.

    As well as being used in the routes above, this change affects the following:

    Chester (CTR) to Bedford Midland (BDM)
    Chester (CTR) to Bletchley (BLY)
    Chester (CTR) to Hazel Grove (HAZ)
    Chester (CTR) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC)
    Chester (CTR) to Northampton (NMP)
    Chester (CTR) to Rugby (RUG)
    Chester (CTR) to Watford Junction (WFJ)
    Chester (CTR) to Willesden Junction (WIJ)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Bedford Midland (BDM)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Bletchley (BLY)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Hazel Grove (HAZ)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Northampton (NMP)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Rugby (RUG)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Watford Junction (WFJ)
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Willesden Junction (WIJ)
    Shotton (SHT) to Bedford Midland (BDM)
    Shotton (SHT) to Bletchley (BLY)
    Shotton (SHT) to Hazel Grove (HAZ)
    Shotton (SHT) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC)
    Shotton (SHT) to Northampton (NMP)
    Shotton (SHT) to Rugby (RUG)
    Shotton (SHT) to Watford Junction (WFJ)
    Shotton (SHT) to Willesden Junction (WIJ)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Bedford Midland (BDM)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Bletchley (BLY)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Hazel Grove (HAZ)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Milton Keynes Central (MKC)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Northampton (NMP)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Rugby (RUG)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Watford Junction (WFJ)
    Wrexham Group (G49) to Willesden Junction (WIJ)
    Each of these now has mapped routes via Runcorn, using Chester-Frodsham-Runcorn-Crewe.

    I had a look at the next National Rail Timetable to see how these changes sat with the shortest route rule. Table 81 includes a timetable between Chester and Liverpool via Runcorn, but it doesn't include any distances for it. This means that the shortest distance between (for instance) Ellesmere Port and Runcorn doesn't go via the Halton curve.

    Easement changes:

    Removed:
    700842 (Fare route) Due to engineering work diversions on Sundays in February and March 2019, tickets for journeys priced on route (00637) VIA SOUTHAMPTON may travel via Eastleigh. This fare route easement applies in both directions.

    700852 (Map) Due to engineering works between 19-22 April 2019 and 04-06 May 2019, London Euston will be closed. Tickets to or via London Euston to or via Manchester Piccadilly priced on (00000) ANY PERMITTED will be valid via Leeds on LNER and TPE services. This map easement will apply in both directions
    The dates for these temporary easements have passed.

    Changed:

    030039 (Fare route) Journeys via High Wycombe priced on routes (00305) VIA HIGH WYCOMBE, (00362) VIA HIGH WYC&SHR, (00363) VIA HWYC & BHM, (00364) CH & TFW ONLY, (00402) CH & CONNECTIONS, (00432) CH & CON VIA SHR and (00435) AP CH AND TFW ONLY may travel via Aylesbury
    This may be what the easement was intended to do all along, although I notice that nationalrail.co.uk gives some itineraries via High Wycombe and Aylesbury.

    700722 (Circuitous Route) Customer travelling on tickets priced on fare route (00046) CHILTERN ONLY and (00048) CHILTERN ONLY to or via Aylesbury may not travel via London Marylebone. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
    According to brfares.com, both routes are used for Oxford-Aylesbury tickets, with identical prices.
     
  6. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    Is there a general point here, that when a new passenger route opens, such as via the Halton Curve above, they won’t alter the routeing guide until the very last minute. Presumably because the fares systems don’t easily cope with future changes from a certain due date?

    Hence there’s little point in discussing fares as seen in journey planners a couple of months ahead of the opening, as has been done a few weeks back in a couple of threads about the Halton curve?
     
  7. Starmill

    Starmill Events Co-ordinator

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    Fares can be set up with a start date a long time in the future. Transport for Wales have already done so with various route Runcorn or route Transport for Wales Only tickets to and from Liverpool. Changing the routing guide however is a different matter!
     
  8. Glenn1969

    Glenn1969 Member

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    Any Northern Only fares Chester/Warrington to stations towards Rochdale/Halifax/Bradford/Leeds appeared yet in prep for the start of the new service?
     
  9. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    That’s what I was thinking. The fares are sorted, but journey planners just can’t or won’t offer them until the routeing rules are adjusted?
     
  10. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Yes. Unlike fares, which have start and end dates, there is only ever one version of the Routeing Guide in force, covering all current and future journeys. But I really don't see any reason why it can't be updated in good time. The necessary map links between Chester and Runcorn routeing points could simply have been added to the relevant maps, and it would not affect any journeys before the new service started.

    Perhaps the delay was due to the requirement to seek DfT and Transport Focus approval for these changes to the Routeing Guide? ;) As many people on here know, consultation with Transport Focus and approval by the DfT is required for every change. People have made FOI requests about this before which made clear that the process wasn't happening, but the justification was being that the changes were only correcting errors in the Routeing Guide.

    But it surely can be argued that the missing Chester to Runcorn link is not an error - it wasn't there before because there wasn't a regular service that way - and therefore its addition should be subject to consultation and approval?! The consultation could, for example, be used to consider all journey opportunities that might be improved by the new service and make sure the benefits were fully realised by appropriate changes to the Routeing Guide (in an ideal world obviously :)).
     
  11. ThisIsSurbiton

    ThisIsSurbiton Member

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    That's it - everything about fares, route codes and restrictions is dated. In the routeing guide data, easements can have dates (for engineering work, etc.) but the core of it, the map sequences and maps themselves, don't have any dates. A new bit of track shouldn't be a problem, it can be added to maps before it's in use, unless perhaps it now forms the shortest route between two places and the old route then becomes invalid, and plenty of journeys rely on being the shortest rather than being on a map.
     
  12. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Good point but in practice not a problem - the shortest route calculation uses station-to-station mileage data which is entirely separate from the map links, which are between pairs of routeing points and specific to each map.
     
  13. Cheshire Rover

    Cheshire Rover Member

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    I've already booked Helsby to MCV on Northern Only advance singles for June.
     
  14. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more changes were published on Wednesday.
    Changes from 190515 (257) to 190522 (258).

    Station Association changes:

    Meridian Water (MRW) is now associated with Cheshunt (CHN) and Tottenham Hale (TOM).
    Warrington West (WAW) is now associated with Hunts Cross Group (G70) and Warrington Group (G31).
    These are the routeing points I'd expect for the new stations. Each lies at the next junction along in one direction or the other. There are some fares from each of these new stations now. As neither station's NLC is used in the 1996 fare list, it's not clear to me when either routeing point would be valid for a journey.

    Permitted Route changes:
    Bletchley (BLY) to Derby Group (G09) gain EB+DG
    Bletchley (BLY) to Nottingham Group (G43) gain EB+DG
    Bletchley (BLY) to Tamworth Low Level (TAM) gain EB+DG
    These journeys now have mapped routes via Birmingham.

    Effingham Junction (EFF) to Newcastle (NCL) gain DK+EC
    This journey now has mapped routes via Leatherhead.

    Easement changes:

    Removed:

    700163 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Acton Bridge, Hartford, Winsford, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel, Goostrey or Nantwich to Warrington Stations, Frodsham, Runcorn East, Widnes, Sankey, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook or Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'DIRECT' may not travel via Manchester Oxford Road.

    700180 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Acton Bridge, Hartford, Winsford, Sandbach, Holmes Chapel, Goostrey or Nantwich to Warrington Central, Warrington Bank Quay, Frodsham, Runcorn East, Widnes, Sankey, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook and Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'Direct' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.

    700181 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Crewe to Sankey, Widnes, Padgate or Birchwood in possession of tickets routed 'DIRECT' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    I don't know if this is the reason, but I don't think any tickets are sold with a route of "Direct" now.

    Added:

    700854 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Amersham, Chalfont & Latimer, Chorleywood, Rickmansworth and Harrow on the Hill, via central London to Huntingdon, St Neots, Sandy, Biggleswade, Arlesley, Letchworth Garden City, Baldock, Ashwell & Morden Royston (Herts), Meldreth, Shepreth and Foxton on tickets priced (00000) ANY PERMITTED, may travel via Hitchin. This routeing point easement will overcome NFM64 fares checking that is preventing journey planners show itineraries. This easement applies in both directions.
    Easement 30025 says:

    030025 (Routeing Point) Journeys from Amersham to Finsbury Park and stations beyond may travel via London Terminals. This easement applies in both directions.​

    While the only NFM64 fares to/from stations between Amersham and Harrow on the Hill go to other stations on the Aylesbury line, taking these easements together means that there are mapped routes for these journeys.

    700855 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from Hassocks to Belmont, Banstead or Epsom Downs on tickets priced (00700) NOT VIA London may travel via Clapham Junction and doubleback through Selhurst. This easement applies in both directions
    There are cheaper "not via Clapham Junction" tickets (although nothing with a route which indicates Tramlink validity). It's sometimes faster and sometimes slower to go via Clapham Junction, so this means that a "not via London" ticket is valid either way.

    700856 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Edinburgh or Haymarket to Stirling or Alloa may not interchange at Croy. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
    Changing trains at Croy does give additional journey opportunities, but, from what I can tell, relatively few of these let you reach your destination more than a few minutes before the next direct train.

    700857 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Pershore, Evesham and Honeybourne to Ramsgate, Sandwich, Deal, Walmer and Martin Mill may travel on tickets priced (00000) ANY PERMITTED via Oxford. This routeing point easement applies in both directions
    This is an oddity of the NMF64 table, with SDS fares from Oxford priced at 3460 against 3450 for Pershore, Evesham and Honeybourne. Changing "any permitted" to "via Oxford" (or "via London", I think) would be another way to allow these to be used on mapped routes.

    030140 (Local) Customers travelling to Kennett from the west may doubleback via Bury St Edmunds. Also, customers travelling from Kennett to or via Bury st Edmunds, may travel via Newmarket. This local easement applies in both directions.
    I think this means someone going to Kennett from the west may double back via Bury St Edmunds and Newmarket.

    I don't know off-hand which journeys this change helps with. Trains through Newmarket aren't that frequent.
    700176 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Crewe to Warrington West, Sankey, Widnes, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook and Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'Warrington' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    700177 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Holmes Chapel to Warrington West, Sankey, Widnes, Warrington, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook and Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'Crewe' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    700178 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Goostrey to Warrington West, Sankey, Widnes, Warrington, Padgate, Birchwood, Glazebrook and Irlam in possession of tickets routed 'Crewe' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    700179 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Sandbach to Warrington West, Sankey in possession of tickets routed 'Warrington' may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    Warrington West (or rather, "Warrington West, ") has been added to every easement which refers to Sankey.

    700753 (Circuitous Route) Journeys from or via (that originate beyond) Shenfield routed (00000) ANY PERMITTED priced on routes (00000 or 01000) ANY PERMITTED and (00051) VIA SHENFIELD to Brentwood, Harold Wood, Gidea Park, Romford, Chadwell Heath, Goodmayes, Seven Kings, Ilford, Manor Park, Forest Gate and Maryland may not travel via Stratford (London) or London Liverpool Street. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
    I don't know about "via Shenfield" tickets from these stations, but quite a few of the local routes are now 'any - permitted' ones.
     
  15. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Possibly. According to Wikipedia, Chiltern trains to Oxford started on 11 December 2016. Oxford was added to the GC map (with a link to Princes Risborough) 3 days before then.

    There were a few easements to do with that route around that time, though, and I haven't tried to work out how they affected things.
     
  16. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    I was working on the assumption that there would be new "New Stations" records for these stations ( guessing that MRW would use Angel Road and WAW would use Warrington Central NFM64 Fares ) - is that not the case?
     
  17. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some easement changes were made to the routeing guide yesterday.
    Changes from 190522 (258) to 190530 (259).

    Easement changes:

    Removed:

    700844 (Routeing Point) Journeys from Yarm to Darlington and North Road are not valid via Northallerton. This negative routeing point easement applies in both directions.
    These tickets now have a route of "via Thornaby". This was "any permitted" last year, but I suspect the change was more recent than that as this easement was only introduced in February.

    It's still usually quicker to travel via Northallerton, though.

    700846 (Circuitous Route) Journeys from Colne, Nelson, Brierfield, Burnley Central, Burnley Barracks, Rose Grove, Hapton, Huncoat and Burnley Manchester Road to Adlington (Lancs), Chorley and Buckshaw Parkway may not go via Manchester Victoria or Salford Crescent. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
    These are now "via Blackburn" rather than "any permitted". This easement dates from March.

    Added:

    700858 (Map) Due to engineering works affecting journeys to London Kings Cross, on 24 - 26 August 2019, this map easement will create journeys to London St Pancras via Peterborough, (on rail replacement coach services) to Bedford and onward via West Hampstead to London.
    The buses for this don't seem to have been added to the timetable planners use yet, so the fastest alternative currently offered is by train via Ely.

    700859 (Doubleback) Customers travelling from Walsden, Todmorden, Hebden Bridge, Mytholmroyd and Sowerby Bridge to Deighton, Huddersfield, Slaithwaite, Marsden (Yorks), Lockwood, Berry Brow, Honley, Brockholes, Stocksmoor, Shepley and Denby Dale on tickets priced (00000) ANY PERMITTED may change at Dewsbury and doubleback through Mirfield. This doubleback easement applies in both directions
    This is probably of most use to people travelling to/from Huddersfield or the Penistone line, as it means faster TPE trains become an option.
     
  18. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    There was an update to the Routeing Guide yesterday. Unfortunately I shan't be able to check the details until next Saturday.
     
  19. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    As I mentioned, some more changes have been published in the last few weeks.

    Two weeks last Friday, the following changes were published:
    Changes from 30 May 2019 (259) to 07 Jun 2019 (260).

    Station Association changes:
    Angel Road (AGR) is no longer associated with Cheshunt (CHN).
    Angel Road (AGR) is no longer associated with Tottenham Hale (TOM).
    There are no longer any references to Angel Road in the routeing guide.

    Easement changes:

    Removed:
    700849 (Map) Due to engineering diversions of Cross Country services on Sunday 02 June 2019, this map easement will allow journeys via Newport (south Wales)

    700850 (Doubleback) Due to engineering works on Sunday 02 June 2019, Cross Country services are diverted via Newport (South Wales). This doubleback easement will allow journeys to pass twice through Severn Tunnel junction.
    Temporary easements which are no longer in date.

    Added:
    700860 (Routeing Point) Customers from Cumbernauld travelling Dunblane, Bridge of Allan and Gleneagles, may travel via Stirling. This routeing point easement overrides NFM64 fares checking and applies in both directions.
    For some reason, NMF64 fares between Cumbernauld and Bridge of Allan or Dunblane are lower than Cumbernauld-Stirling ones.

    There are no direct trains, so the shortest route means a change at Camelon. Web sites tend to offer a change in Falkirk instead, but perhaps they did something less useful before this easement was added.

    A week last Friday, the following changes were published:
    Changes from 07 Jun 2019 (260) to 14 Jun 2019 (261).

    Permitted Route changes:
    Birmingham Group (G02) to Chester (CTR) gain BJ+NJ lose RJ
    This journey no longer has mapped routes via Nuneaton.

    Birmingham Group (G02) to Huyton (HUY) gain BJ+NJ+BV lose BJ+CH BM+XV BP+NV BV
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Nuneaton; or
    via Warrington.
    It now has mapped routes which go via both the direct Rugeley-Stoke-on-Trent line and Liverpool.

    Birmingham Group (G02) to Liverpool Group (G18) gain BJ+NJ+BV lose BP+NV
    This journey no longer has mapped routes via Nuneaton.
    It now has mapped routes via the the direct Rugeley-Stoke-on-Trent line.

    Birmingham Group (G02) to Runcorn (RUN) gain BJ+NJ lose BP+NJ
    Birmingham Group (G02) to Wrexham Group (G49) gain BJ+NJ lose BJ BP+NJ
    These journeys no longer have mapped routes via Nuneaton.
    They now have mapped routes via Stoke-on-Trent.

    Birmingham Group (G02) to Warrington Group (G31) lose BM BS BS+NR
    This journey no longer has mapped routes via Wigan or via the direct Crewe-Warrington line.

    The remaining map combination ends with NR, which only includes mapped routes via Manchester and Birchwood. You can, of course, take a through train (if available for your route), or whatever is allowed by the shortest route rule.

    Bolton (BON) to Tamworth (TAM) gain BS lose BM+WM NR+BM+WM NR+TM+WM TM+WM
    This journey now has mapped routes:
    via Wigan; and
    ones which use the direct Lichfield-Tamworth line.

    Chester (CTR) to Lichfield Trent Valley (LTV) lose BC+WM BJ+WM CH+BC+WM
    Chester (CTR) to Stafford (STA) gain BJ BJ+MH lose NJ
    Coventry (COV) to Runcorn (RUN) gain BI+BJ+NJ lose BI+BJ
    Crewe (CRE) to Stafford (STA) gain MH
    Lichfield Trent Valley (LTV) to Runcorn (RUN) lose WM+BJ
    Llandudno Junction (LLJ) to Stafford (STA) gain BJ BJ+MH lose NJ
    Nuneaton (NUN) to Runcorn (RUN) gain BP+BJ+NJ lose BP+BJ
    Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) to Runcorn (RUN) lose BP+BJ
    Runcorn (RUN) to Tamworth (TAM) lose BJ+WM
    Shotton (SHT) to Stafford (STA) gain BJ BJ+MH lose NJ
    Tamworth (TAM) to Wrexham Group (G49) gain WM+NJ lose WM+BJ
    These journeys now have mapped routes via Stoke-on-Trent.

    Chester (CTR) to Nuneaton (NUN) gain RJ lose BC+BP BJ+BP CH+BC+BP JO+TM NJ
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Shrewsbury; or
    via Warrington.
    It now has mapped routes:
    via Birmingham and Tamworth;
    via Wolverhampton and Tamworth; and
    ones via Stoke-on-Trent which don't go via Warrington.

    Chester (CTR) to Rugby (RUG) lose JO+LC
    Rugby (RUG) to Wrexham Group (G49) lose LC+JO
    These journeys no longer have mapped routes via Helsby.

    Chester (CTR) to Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) gain JO+NJ lose BC+WM BJ+WM CH+BC+WM
    Chester (CTR) to Tamworth (TAM) gain JO+NJ lose BC+WM BJ+WM CH+BC+WM
    These journeys now have mapped routes:
    via Stoke-on-Trent; and
    via Runcorn.

    Coventry (COV) to Huyton (HUY) gain NJ+NV SM+BJ+NJ+NV lose BI+BV BM+XV NV TM+XV
    This journey no longer has mapped routes via Earlestown.
    It now has mapped routes:
    via Nuneaton and Birmingham;
    via the direct Rugeley-Stoke-on-Trent line and Liverpool; and
    via Nuneaton, Stoke-on-Trent and Liverpool.

    Coventry (COV) to Liverpool Group (G18) gain NJ+NV SM+BJ+NJ+NV lose BI+BV BM+NO BM+NR NV TM+NO TM+NR
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Manchester; or
    via Warrington.
    It now has mapped routes:
    via Nuneaton and Birmingham;
    via Nuneaton, Stoke-on-Trent and either Chester or Runcorn; and
    via the direct Rugeley-Stoke-on-Trent line and either Chester or Runcorn.

    Coventry (COV) to Warrington Group (G31) lose BM TM
    This journey no longer has mapped routes using the direct Crewe-Warrington route.
    It now only has mapped routes via Birchwood.

    Huyton (HUY) to Lichfield Trent Valley (LTV) gain NV+NJ lose BV CH+BJ+WM CH+NJ ME+WM NV XV+BM+WM XV+TM
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Birmingham;
    via Earlestown; or
    via Wolverhampton.
    It now has mapped routes via Liverpool and the direct Stoke-Rugeley line.

    Huyton (HUY) to Nuneaton (NUN) gain NV+NJ NV+RJ XV+LC+RJ lose BV+BP CH+BJ+BP CH+NJ ME+BP NV XV+BM XV+BM+BP
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Shrewsbury; or
    via Wilmslow.
    It now has mapped routes:
    via Liverpool, Birmingham and Tamworth;
    via Liverpool, Stoke-on-Trent and Tamworth;
    via Liverpool, Wolverhampton and Tamworth; and
    via Liverpool and the direct line between Stoke-on-Trent and Rugeley.

    Huyton (HUY) to Rugby (RUG) lose ME+EB
    Liverpool Group (G18) to Rugby (RUG) lose ME+EB
    These journeys no longer have mapped routes via Shrewsbury.

    Huyton (HUY) to Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) gain NO+NC+TV NV+NC+TV lose CH+BJ CH+NJ ME+BP NV XV+TM
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Wilmslow; or
    via Wolverhampton.
    It now has mapped routes via Liverpool and Stoke-on-Trent.

    Huyton (HUY) to Stafford (STA) gain KW+NC+NJ lose XV+BM
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Wilmslow; or
    via Wolverhampton.

    Huyton (HUY) to Tamworth (TAM) gain NO+NC+NJ NV+NJ lose BV CH+BJ+WM CH+NJ ME+WM NV XV+BM+WM XV+TM
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Birmingham;
    via Wilmslow; or
    via Wolverhampton.
    It now has mapped routes via Liverpool and the direct line between Stoke-on-Trent and Rugeley.

    Huyton (HUY) to Wolverhampton (WVH) gain KW+NC+NJ lose XV+TM
    This journey now has mapped routes via both Hooton and Stoke-on-Trent.

    Lichfield Trent Valley (LTV) to Liverpool Group (G18) gain NJ+NV lose BV NJ+CH NV TM+NO TM+NR WM+BJ+CH WM+BM+NO WM+BM+NR
    Liverpool Group (G18) to Tamworth (TAM) gain NV+NJ lose BV CH+BJ+WM CH+NJ ME+WM NO+BM+WM NO+TM NR+BM+WM NR+TM NV
    These journeys no longer have mapped routes:
    via Birmingham;
    via Manchester;
    via Warrington; or
    via Wolverhampton.
    They now have mapped routes via the direct Rugeley-Stoke-on-Trent line which also go via Chester or Runcorn.

    Lichfield Trent Valley (LTV) to Warrington Group (G31) gain NJ+NC lose TM
    This journey no longer has mapped routes via Wilmslow.

    Liverpool Group (G18) to Nuneaton (NUN) gain BV+TL lose BV+BP CH+BJ+BP CH+NJ ME+BP NO+BM NR+TM NV
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Manchester;
    via Shrewsbury; or
    via Warrington.
    It now has mapped routes:
    via Chester or Runcorn, as well as Birmingham and Tamworth;
    via Chester or Runcorn, as well as Stoke-on-Trent and Tamworth; and
    via Chester or Runcorn, as well as Wolverhampton and Tamworth.

    Liverpool Group (G18) to Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) gain NO+NC+NJ NR+NC+NJ NV+NJ lose CH+BJ CH+NJ NO+TM NR+TM NV
    This journey no longer has mapped routes:
    via Manchester;
    via Wilmslow; or
    via Wolverhampton.
    It now has mapped routes via Chester or Runcorn and Stoke-on-Trent.

    Liverpool Group (G18) to Stafford (STA) lose CV CV+MH
    Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) to Smethwick Group (G63) gain KN lose NJ
    Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) to Wolverhampton (WVH) gain ES lose NJ
    No effect.

    Nuneaton (NUN) to Warrington Group (G31) gain TV+NC lose TM
    This journey no longer has mapped routes via Wilmslow which do not go through Birchwood.

    Nuneaton (NUN) to Wrexham Group (G49) gain BP+BJ+NJ lose BP+BJ TM+JO
    This journey now has mapped routes which go via Stoke-on-Trent which don't also go via Warrington.

    Rugeley Trent Valley (RGL) to Warrington Group (G31) gain NJ+NC lose TM TM+NR
    Tamworth (TAM) to Warrington Group (G31) gain NJ+NC lose TM TM+NR
    These journeys no longer have mapped routes:
    via Manchester; or
    via Wilmslow.

    Map changes:
    NJ: Gain Crewe to/from Stoke-On-Trent
    NJ: Gain Rugeley Trent Valley to/from Stoke-On-Trent
    NJ: Gain Stoke-On-Trent to/from Stafford
    This adds Stoke-on-Trent to the map, and so means there are some additional journey opportunities via Stoke-on-Trent. I don't think there are any which permit a route via Stoke-on-Trent where there wasn't already a similar route via (say) Crewe.

    Easement changes:

    Added:
    700861 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Newton Le Willows to Manchester Airport may travel via Manchester Piccadilly. This routeing point easement overrides NFM64 fares checking and applies in both directions.
    I'm not sure what the purpose of the easement is. While it's true that there's no NMF64 fares between Newton-le-Willows and Manchester Airport, the only map listed for Earlestown-Manchester is NO, which only includes the direct route via Patricroft. I don't know if this permits anything which wasn't already allowed by the shortest route rule.


    Last Wednesday, the following easement was published:
    Changes from 14 Jun 2019 (261) to 19 Jun 2019 (262).

    Easement changes:

    Added:

    700862 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Lea Green to Manchester Airport on tickets priced (00485) AP TPE ONLY, may interchange at Manchester Victoria, Manchester Oxford Road or Manchester Piccadilly on their journey to the airport station. This routeing point easement overrides NFM64 fares checking will operate in both directions.
    This is similar to easement 700861, although this one is restricted to Advance tickets for some reason. I don't know what effect this one has, either.
     
  20. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
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    Joined:
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    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    I assume it would continue being valid via the WCML as it's the shortest route (and the only obvious one that 99.9999% of passengers are going to use)? Is this as part of a move to remove mapping of shortest routes to decomplicate a bit?
     
  21. JB_B

    JB_B Member

    Messages:
    806
    Joined:
    27 Dec 2013

    The remaining map combinations for Coventry to Warrington Group are

    BM+NR and TM+NR

    I agree that NR lacks the Crewe-Warrington link and appreciate that you need to use all maps in the map combination (in the correct order).

    However,the Crewe-Warrington link appears on BM (and TM) and Warrington Group lies on NR so I would argue that the use-all-maps-in-the-right-order condition is met by transitioning from BM to NR at Warrington so that Crewe-Warrington remains mapped (and similarly for other routes.)

    Or is that stretching things too far?
     
  22. MikeWM

    MikeWM Member

    Messages:
    359
    Joined:
    26 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Ely
    Removing via Warrington for this route is... a rather odd move.

    Presumably it is the shortest route and so still allowed anyway, though hard to be certain without finding my copy of Quail as there isn't a mileage given for Warrington BQ -> Huyton in Table 90 of the NRT. What's the rule if there isn't a mileage in the NRT? Guess?

    This seems to be the latest in a series of irritating messing around with valid routes to Huyton. The most irritating is that you can apparently no longer travel from the East via the CLC line and Liverpool - even though this is often the fastest and most convenient route. It makes a right mess in NR's journey planner for eg. Ely to Huyton via Sheffield, as most of the results given either don't offer return tickets at all or require multiple tickets. Eg. if I look on NR for the next 10 journeys Ely->Huyton, via Sheffield, leaving immediately, only 3 of the returned results actually offer a return ticket......
     
  23. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

    Messages:
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    Joined:
    6 Jun 2005
    Location:
    Yorkshire
    Electronic journey planners use mileage data. It's within 3 miles by this measure, so booking engines will validate the route without needing to consult the routeing guide.
     
  24. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

    Messages:
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    Location:
    Reading
    I think so; the routeing guide says (highlighting by me)
    In other words you need to use one of the routes on the final map; if you just transition at the destination that requirement is not satisfied.
     
  25. MikeWM

    MikeWM Member

    Messages:
    359
    Joined:
    26 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Ely
    Indeed - but what a silly mess.

    I note that NR's journey planner is giving me a load of valid journeys via Wigan NW (!). I don't really understand why, though as it is the quickest way of doing the journey at various times of day (given only 1tph from Warrington to Huyton), that does seems 'reasonable'.
     
  26. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
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    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    Assuming we have moved to talk about Huyton...

    TBH to somewhere close into the city on the Merseyrail network like that the most obvious one to me would be via Liverpool. This seems to have been added as Permitted?

    Via Wigan feels a bit circuitous to be something I'd think was Permitted without first checking. Whereas via Liverpool is the obvious route to me and it would be ridiculous for it not to be Permitted.

    Using the railway in a "hub and spoke" manner is probably going to be the most obvious way of working out routes for the lay passenger, too, even where there's a double back which isn't actually Permitted. Let's consider a city with a suburban network I don't know well - Glasgow. The obvious thing for me to do if I went and purchased a walk-up would be to take the VT to Glasgow (whether technically Permitted or not) and connect there, not to prat around with something else obscure involving say Motherwell. Only with the advent of journey planners have laypeople probably started to do things a little more obscure.
     
  27. furlong

    furlong Established Member

    Messages:
    2,069
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    Location:
    Reading
    Then for the purpose of the calculations, that mileage has surely to be zero: The train companies have no authority to use any distances taken from anywhere else, though it appears they've been using different datasets and miscalculating them for years with impunity.
     
  28. MikeWM

    MikeWM Member

    Messages:
    359
    Joined:
    26 Mar 2010
    Location:
    Ely
    Yes, Birmingham to Huyton. Via Liverpool was already permitted, but now you can go via Stoke and then Liverpool (actually I thought you already could, but I wouldn't swear to it).

    But via Warrington is apparently no longer in the routing guide - but is permitted anyway because it is the shortest route (though that isn't trivial to find out, especially as the mileage isn't listed in the NRT).

    Via Wigan I agree appears rather a diversion at first glance, but it does make sense to be allowed because it is often the quickest way to make the journey. (Though why it is being offered if via Warrington is now only valid due to being the shortest route, is confusing me).

    Also, I agree with the 'hub and spoke' concept. Which is why, to me, it is downright ridiculous that for Ely->Huyton it seems to be no longer an allowed route to take the direct EMT to Liverpool and then the frequent service to Huyton, which is certainly the most convenient route and often also the fastest. Instead now you're supposed to faff about changing in Manchester, and sometimes also at Earlestown and/or Newton-le-Willows (!).
     
  29. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

    Messages:
    44,273
    Joined:
    20 Oct 2014
    Location:
    Up and down the south WCML (mostly)
    As a general principle I would agree that there should always exist a through ticket for the fastest route, even if that has to, to avoid messing other fares up, be a higher routed fare. The railway should never be telling someone they can't use the fastest route.
     
  30. adrock1976

    adrock1976 Established Member

    Messages:
    2,707
    Joined:
    10 Dec 2013
    Location:
    Glasgow
    Looking at the changes above, I have seen a lot of references to various routes via Stoke on Trent towards Merseyside area no longer having mapped routes via Manchester.

    The cynic in me believes that this may have been a possible response to the Kidsgrove fare thread that was posted within the last couple of weeks. Or is there some other explanation that I have overlooked?
     

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