National Routeing Guide update

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by RJ, 16 Apr 2014.

  1. greatkingrat

    greatkingrat Established Member

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  2. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Sorry, I missed those, and I've changed the last post to reflect them.

    There are two types of super off peak return ticket between Southend Central and West Ham (as is easy to confirm on the C2C web site, say); one valid only at weekends to/from Southend Central, and one valid during the week to/from Southend Stations.

    I was just trying to think how feasible it would be to make this journey without using C2C. It's normally still faster and more straightforward to make this journey using their trains, but I'm sure there are other "circuitous routes" like this.
     
  3. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    Southend Central to West Ham can be done on a through train, therefore there is no need to consult the routeing guide, so I can't see how that negative easement is relevant or enforceable.
     
  4. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Two more easements were created yesterday:

    Changes from 27 Aug 2019 (272) to 11 Sep 2019 (273).

    Easement changes:

    Added:

    700875 (Doubleback) Customers travelling to Salford Central from or via Newton le Willows may pass Salford Central and interchange at Manchester Victoria to get a train back to Salford Central. This doubleback easement will apply in both directions
    There are two trains each way an hour which run non-stop between Newton-le-Willows and Manchester Victoria. This easement lets passengers take what is usually the fastest route to Salford Central.

    700876 (Fare route) Due to engineering works on the 14, 15 and 22 September 2019 , journeys from London Marylebone to Princes Risborough, priced on fare route (00305) VIA HIGH WYCOMBE may travel via Aylesbury. This fare route easement apples in both directions
    There are no trains between London and Gerrards Cross this weekend, or between London and High Wycombe on the 22nd.

    This easement is a bit of a puzzle, though. Easement 30039 seems to do everything this easement does on a permanent basis. And neither easement does anything for someone hoping to travel between (say) Kings Sutton and London, where the fastest route may well be via Aylesbury, but the flexible tickets are all "any permitted" ones, and not valid via Aylesbury.
     
  5. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    It doesn't seem to be enough. I think a map easement is also required to permit travel via Aylesbury.
     
  6. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    A few changes were published yesterday.
    Changes from 11 Sep 2019 (273) to 13 Sep 2019 (274).

    Station Association changes:
    Worcestershire Parkway (WOP) is now associated with Bromsgrove (BMV).
    Worcestershire Parkway (WOP) is now associated with Cheltenham Spa (CNM).
    Worcestershire Parkway (WOP) is now associated with Oxford (OXF).
    Worcestershire Parkway (WOP) is now associated with Worcester Group (G35).
    Worcestershire Parkway has been added to the routeing guide, with associations with all of the surrounding routeing points.

    This is actually the only station associated with Bromsgrove. Ashchurch for Tewkesbury lost its association with it last year, and Barnt Green, Cheltenham and Droitwich are routeing points.

    Permitted Route changes:
    London Group (G01) to Princes Risborough (PRR) gain CI lose GC
    This journey now has mapped route via Aylesbury.

    Easement changes:

    Removed:

    700876 (Fare route) Due to engineering works on the 14, 15 and 22 September 2019 , journeys from London Marylebone to Princes Risborough, priced on fare route (00305) VIA HIGH WYCOMBE may travel via Aylesbury. This fare route easement apples in both directions
    This is the easement which was added on Wednesday.

    Added:

    700877 (Local) Customers travelling from Dunbar to Prestonpans, may travel via Edinburgh. This local easement applies in both directions
    Trains don't stop between Dunbar and Musselburgh, so changing at Musselburgh is the shortest route between Dunbar and any station between Musselburgh and North Berwick. This easement means that a change at Edinburgh is another option for tickets between Dunbar and one of those stations.
     
  7. Sleepy

    Sleepy Member

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    Apologies if I'm being dim - long hard week, surely the general policy is to change tickets to specific stations so Southend Victoria should be printed if use of C2C is not permitted ??
     
    Last edited: 14 Sep 2019
  8. JB_B

    JB_B Member

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    Will NFM64 fare checks for Worcestershire Parkway be done using Worcester Shrub Hill fares?
     
  9. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Web sites do seem to treate fare route easements as "what would be permitted with a hypothetical 'any permitted' ticket" rather than treating the route on the ticket as being "via High Wycombe or Aylesbury". All the routeing guide says is that they "permit a journey which does not pass through the tion named in the fares route", though.

    In this case, only the CI map includes the London-Aylesbury line, and this is only used for Princes Risborough-London, Aylesbury-London and Aylesbury-South Ruislip routes. Because of this, the number of tickets which would be affected by easement 30039 going by the first definition is probably rather small.
    The whole thing leaves me a bit baffled.

    They could make the ticket origin Southend Victoria instead of Southend Central or Southend Stations. They could make the route "via Shenfield" instead of "any permitted". Instead they do this.

    There's no ticket acceptance on the DLR from Stratford, and the District Line takes more than twice as long as C2C does between Upminster and West Ham. Because of this, I doubt any industry web site is actually able to plan a journey which follows this easement.

    Mostly, though, I don't know why someone would want to restrict a ticket like this. Perhaps it's simply easier to add an easement to the routeing guide rather than to withdraw an unregulated fare from sale.
     
  10. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    If anyone who works in the ticketing industry could explain as to why they might do something like this, then we would be very interested.
     
  11. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some easement changes were published this afternoon.

    Changes from 13 Sep 2019 (274) to 20 Sep 2019 (275).

    Removed:

    700858 (Map) Due to engineering works affecting journeys to London Kings Cross, on 24 - 26 August 2019, this map easement will create journeys to London St Pancras via Peterborough, (on rail replacement coach services) to Bedford and onward via West Hampstead to London.
    The dates for this easement have passed.

    Changed:

    700287 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Cuxton, Halling, Snodland, New Hythe or Aylesford to London Terminals Stations in possession of tickets routed (00130) "Not Valid on HS1" Or (00131) Plus HS1 may not travel via Paddock Wood. This easement applies in both directions.

    700510 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Aylesford to or via London Charing Cross in possession of tickets routed (00130) "Not Valid via HS1"Or (00131) PLUS HIgh Speed may not travel via Paddock Wood. This easement applies in both directions.
    Paddock Wood would otherwise be on a valid route as Tonbridge is a valid routeing point for each of these journeys.

    In addition to the above routes, there are "Dartford not HS1" for some of the journeys affected by easement 700287. I don't think they're valid via Paddock Wood anyway.
     
  12. MKB

    MKB Member

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    If anyone from the Rail Delivery Group team responsible for routeing changes is monitoring this thread, please can you check the posting I made here about loss of reasonable routes from Liverpool to Nuneaton, but which has been relocated here
     
  13. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    I predict RDG will fix it before the DfT sees the FOI request; the DfT will then just say it has not changed and RDG get off the hook again.
     
  14. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some changes have been made to the routeing guide this week.

    On Monday two easements were added.
    Changes from 20 Sep 2019 (275) to 30 Sep 2019 (276).

    Easement changes:

    Added:

    700878 (Map) During engineering works between the 09 - 14 November 2019, in the Taunton area, Great Western services will be diverted via Castle Cary, Yeovil and Honiton to Exeter and beyond. Temporary permitted routes for journeys on tickets priced on routes (00000) ANY PERMITTED, (0411) AP SLOUGH, (00820) GREAT WESTERN ONLY and (00840) VIA TAUNTON will be in force. This map easement will apply to journeys in both directions.

    700879 (Fare route) During engineering works diversions between 09 - 14 November 2019. Tickets priced on route (00842) VIA TAUNTON will be valid for travel via Honiton, Yeovil and Castle Cary and onward toward Reading and London. Tickets priced on this route will not be valid via Brockenhurst or Salisbury. this fare route easement will apply in both directions.
    There are no trains through Taunton over that period (or to any of the stations between Taunton and Weston-super-Mare). Crosscountry are providing rail replacement buses. GWR are also diverting some of the trains which normally serve Taunton. These easements allow more tickets to be used on the diverted trains.

    This afternoon the following changes were published:
    Changes from 30 Sep 2019 (276) to 02 Oct 2019 (277).

    Permitted Route changes:
    Liverpool Group (G18) to Nuneaton (NUN) gain NO+TM NR+TM
    This journey now has mapped routes:
    via Manchester; and
    via Warrington.

    Compared with the situation which existed between 6/8/15 and 13/6/19, this journey has lost the mapped routes:
    via Wrexham;
    via both Earlestown and Birmingham; and
    via both Earlestown and Wolverhampton.
    It has gained some mapped routes:
    via Hooton, Birmingham and Tamworth;
    via Runcorn, Birmingham and Tamworth;
    via Hooton, Stoke-on-Trent and Tamworth;
    via Runcorn, Stoke-on-Trent and Tamworth;
    via Hooton, Wolverhampton and Tamworth; and
    via Runcorn, Wolverhampton and Tamworth.

    Easement changes:

    Changed:

    700878 (Map) During engineering works between the 09 - 14 November 2019, in the Taunton area, Great Western services will be diverted via Castle Cary, Yeovil and Honiton to Exeter and beyond. Temporary permitted routes for journeys on tickets priced on routes (00000) ANY PERMITTED, (0411) AP SLOUGH, (00700) NOT VIA LONDON, (00810) NOT VIA READING, (00820) GREAT WESTERN ONLY and (00840) VIA TAUNTON will be in force. This map easement will apply to journeys in both directions.
    They're clearly trying to exclude SWR ticket routes here. GWR use a lot of route codes, though, so it's no surprise that the easement doesn't list all of them. For instance, someone travelling between Plymouth and Sheffield via London can't use a "+via Chesterfield" ticket on the diverted trains, but would need a more expensive "+any permitted" one instead.

    They do seem to have engineered a situation where a web site may say that you are not allowed to use a "via Honiton" ticket on a direct train between your origin and destination which calls at Honiton on the way. This isn't caused by this easement, though.
     
  15. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    RDG still keeping tabs on this forum.....

    Far easier to get things sorted by posting on here than raising formally through the TOC.
     
  16. infobleep

    infobleep Established Member

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    Does anyone know of they would they need to discuss it with a TOC before reversing a change or modifying a change?
     
  17. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more changes were published this afternoon.
    Changes from 02 Oct 2019 (277) to 16 Oct 2019 (278).

    Station Association changes:

    Ainsdale (ANS), Appley Bridge (APB), Bank Hall (BAH), Bescar Lane (BES), Birkdale (BDL), Blundellsands & Crosby (BLN), Bootle New Strand (BNW), Bootle Oriel Road (BOT), Burscough Bridge (BCB), Formby (FBY), Freshfield (FRE), Gathurst (GST), Hall Road (HLR), Hightown (HTO), Hillside (HIL), Hoscar (HSC), Meols Cop (MEC), New Lane (NLN), Parbold (PBL), Seaforth & Litherland (SFL), Southport (SOP) and Waterloo (Merseyside) (WLO) are no longer associated with Preston.
    The stations between Wigan and Liverpool via Southport are no longer associated with Preston. With the exception of Bank Hall (which is now only associated with Liverpool), these stations are associated with Liverpool and Wigan.

    This means that a Southport-Preston ticket can now be used to travel via Liverpool, but also means that various longer journeys now have fewer valid routes via Preston.

    Robroyston (RRN) is now associated with Falkirk Group (G44) and Springburn (SPR).
    This station is being built near M80 J2 between Springburn and Stepps. For comparison, Stepps is associated with Falkirk and Springburn, as well as Motherwell Group (G67).

    Easement changes:

    Added:

    700880 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling with tickets priced on fare route (00000) ANY PERMITTED from Bat and Ball, Dunton Green, Otford, Sevenoaks or Shoreham (Kent) to Crystal Palace are not permitted to travel via the locations forming the (G01) London Group Routeing Point. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions

    700881 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling with tickets priced on fare route (00000) ANY PERMITTED from Bat and Ball, Dunton Green, Otford or Shoreham (Kent) to Norwood Junction are not permitted to travel via the locations forming the (G01) London Group Routeing Point. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
    The journeys affected by these easements all have "Any Permitted" and "London Not Underground" tickets available.

    700882 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling with tickets priced on fare route (00000) ANY PERMITTED from Bat and Ball, Dunton Green, Eynsford, Otford, Sevenoaks or Shoreham (Kent) to Birkbeck are not permitted to travel via the locations forming the (G01) London Group Routeing Point. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions
    These journeys only have "Any Permitted" tickets available for them. As far as I can tell, most of these journeys didn't have any valid routes via London before today.

    These easements changes things so that "any permitted" tickets for a number of journeys are not valid via London.
     
  18. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    A temporary easement was amended yesterday:
    Changes from 16 Oct 2019 (278) to 17 Oct 2019 (279).

    Easement changes:

    Changed:

    700868 (Map) Due to engineering closures between Bristol and Cheltenham Spa, Cross Country services will be diverted via Bath Spa and Swindon on 26 and 27 October and 03 November 2019. This map easement will apply in both directions.
    It's just an extra day. GWR apparently still expect to run trains between Bristol and Cheltenham then, so I don't know what the plan actually is.
     
  19. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Two more changes were made to easements this afternoon:
    Changes from 17 Oct 2019 (279) to 23 Oct 2019 (280).

    Added:

    700883 (Map) During engineering works on Sunday 16 February 2020, Cross Country services will be diverted between Reading and Southampton via Wokingham, Guildford and Havant. This map easement will apply in both directions.
    This is quite a lot of notice for the works. So much so that the timetable doesn't show the diversion yet.

    Changed:

    700173 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from or via Newton Abbot, Teignmouth, Dawlish, Dawlish Warren and Starcross to Exeter St Thomas may not travel via Exeter St David's. This easement applies until the 15 December 2019 and will operate in both directions.
    This easement is one which has an effect, but where it's not obvious that it should do.

    If it wasn't there, someone travelling from (say) Plymouth to Exeter St Thomas via Exeter St David's would still have to pass through Exeter St Thomas on the way. The rules about doubling back through stations are quite complex, but this is one of the situations where it isn't normally be allowed (both Exeter stations are part of Exeter Group, and you are not permitted to double back through stations in a routeing group if your destination is in that group).

    As it is, the Journey Planner at www.nationalrail.co.uk can't generally tell that a train which goes non-stop through Exeter St Thomas actually passes through the station. This means that, if it wasn't for this easement, it would have permitted a journey which doubles back via Exeter St David's.

    With this change, this easement has no effect on journeys after December. This suggests that a double back via Exeter St David's will become more useful then, although I don't know what sort of journey this affects the most.
     
  20. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    Some more easement changes were published this afternoon:
    Changes from 23 Oct 2019 (280) to 24 Oct 2019 (281).

    Easement changes:

    Removed:

    040003 (Routeing Point) Until the 02 January 2018, customers travelling from Drayton Green, Castle Bar Park, South Greenford, Hanwell, West Ealing, Ealing Broadway and Acton Main Line to Hayes & Harlington and beyond (excluding Heathrow Airport locations) may travel via London Paddington. This easement applies in both directions, for travel up to and including the 01 January 2018.
    Oddly enough, both dates were added at the same time. It had long expired, of course.

    040009 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Ulverston to Carlisle using tickets routed DIRECT may not travel via Carnforth. This easement applies in both directions.

    700157 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Selby to Doncaster in possession of tickets routed 'DIRECT' may not travel via York. This easement applies in both directions.

    700215 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Pegswood, Widdrington and Acklington to or via Alnmouth in possession of tickets routed DIRECT may not travel via Morpeth. This easement applies in both directions.

    700463 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Sheffield, Dore, Grindleford, Hathersage, Bamford, Hope (Derbyshire), Edale and Chinley to Stockport, Davenport, Woodsmoor, Hazel Grove and Middlewood in possession of tickets routed "Direct" may not travel via Manchester Piccadilly. This easement applies in both directions.

    700501 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Warrington Central to Crewe in possession of tickets routed "Direct" may not travel via Liverpool South Parkway. This easement applies in both directions.
    As far as I know, the "direct" route is no longer used anywhere, meaning none of these easements did anything.

    Added:

    700884 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling to London Maylebone or South Ruislip from or via Reading may not travel via Oxford. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.
    I suspect the journeys which were valid via Reading and Oxford were valid because that is the shortest route according to the distances in the National Rail Timetable. I don't think an easement can prevent someone from using the shortest route between two stations.

    Changed:

    030230 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Vauxhall to Clapham Junction and beyond may not travel via London Waterloo. Except during engineering works affecting services at London Waterloo between the 05 and 28 August 2017. This circuitous route easement applies in both directions.

    040002 (Circuitous Route) Journeys from Ashton-U-Lyne and Mossley via Doncaster to Stevenage and Beyond may not use the SVS/SVR fare routed Any Permitted

    700024 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Hook or Winchfield via Woking and whom are in possession of tickets routed AP EMT & CONNECTIONS (00486) AP EMR & CONNECT, may travel via Farnborough Main. This easement applies in both directions.

    700118 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling via Wembley Central to Apsley, Hemel Hempstead, Berkhamsted, Tring and Cheddington in possession of tickets routed 'AP EMT & CONNECTIONS' (00486) EMR & CONNECT may travel via Watford Junction. This easement applies in both directions.

    700194 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling via West Hampstead to Stoke Mandeville, Wendover, Great Missenden, Amersham, Chalfont & Latimer, Chorleywood and Rickmansworth in possession of tickets routed 'AP EMT&CONNECT' (00486) AP EMR & CONNECT may travel via London Marylebone. This easement applies in both directions.

    700214 (Routeing Point) Customers travelling from Alfreton, Langley Mill or Ilkeston to or via London St Pancras, in possession of tickets routed 'Any Permitted', (00472) EMIDSTRAINSONLY or 'EMT & Connections' (00000) ANY PERMITTED, (00472) EMR ONLY or (00486) AP EMR & CONNECT' may travel via Chesterfield. This easement applies in both directions.

    700216 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Chathill to or via Berwick Upon Tweed in possession of tickets routed DIRECT or (00000) ANY PERMITTED may not travel via Morpeth. This easement applies in both directions.

    700483 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Lincoln, Collingham and Newark Castle to London St Pancras in possession of tickets routed "East Midlands Trains Only" "EMR ONLY" may not travel via Derby. This easement applies in both directions.

    700489 (Circuitous Route) Customers travelling from Warrington Central to Eastham Rake and Hooton in possession of tickets routed "Any Permitted" or "Direct" (00000) ANY PERMITTED may not travel via Liverpool Lime Street. This easement applies in both directions.

    700545 (Routeing Point) Customer travelling from Derby, Long Eaton and Spondon may travel to Syston, Barrow upon Soar and Sileby via Leicester on troute 'Any Permitted'. This easement overrides the Fare Check Rule and applies in both directions.
    If you took the view that an easement which relates to one train company's tickets also relates to those its successors offer, then none of these changes have a material effect.

    I notice that there are still a few "EMT" easements left (700368, 700564, 700660, 700838 & 700316), and a handful refer to other former train companies.
     
  21. supervalkoinen

    supervalkoinen Member

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    I may have misunderstood but isn't this the only logical route?
     
  22. Merseysider

    Merseysider Established Member Fares Advisor

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    By my standards, yes.

    Perhaps they want passengers to change at Liverpool South Parkway, wait for the hourly TfW, travel to Chester and change again there, which is completely ridiculous?
     
  23. janb

    janb Member

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    Seems like the two obvious journey options are, from Bank Quay change at Chester, or from Central change at Lime Street. Presumably they want you using the more expensive via Liverpool fare rather than Any Permitted.

    The fare structure for Warrington to Eastham Rake in particular is really weird. There are two Any Permitted fares, one set by TfW and one by Merseryrail. The TfW option is cheaper than the via Chester and via Liverpool options.
    http://www.brfares.com/#!fares?orig=0445&dest=ERA
     
  24. A Challenge

    A Challenge Established Member

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    No, they want to force people wanting to go via Liverpool to buy tickets route VIA LIVERPOOL, or presumably to change onto Merseyrail at Liverpool South Parkway and again at Liverpool Central or Moorfields (in the other direction).
     
  25. kieron

    kieron Established Member

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    By the look of things, there isn't an "any permitted" ticket for Warrington-Hooton, and I don't know if there are any circumstances where an "any permitted" Warrington-Eastham Rake ticket would be better than an "any - permitted" one.

    I didn't look into what each of these easements does. I suspect whoever authorised the changes may not have done either.
     
  26. IanXC

    IanXC Emeritus Moderator

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    Wait what? The priced routes are Any Permitted and Not via Newcastle. Has Direct become not via Newcastle, perhaps changing the route to Not via Morpeth would have had the effect desired.
     
  27. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    They really could do with a clearout of DIRECT routes - they are meaningless - replacing them with geographic routes meaning the same thing.
     
  28. jawr256

    jawr256 Member

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    That easement is in the "removed" section of Kieron's post, so the point of the change is not to add restrictions via Morpeth, but to removed a defunct restriction relating to a non-existent fare route.

    There are still some contradictory easements in this area - eg.

     
  29. jawr256

    jawr256 Member

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    Using the easements list as a barometer, it looks like this is already ongoing. (Edit - I defer to Kieron who states above that to his knowledge no tickets use the DIRECT route anymore) After the removals listed by kieron of easements related to defunct DIRECT routes, there are only two mentions of the DIRECT route remaining in the easements PDF:

    In both cases the easements are already redundant as the DIRECT routes have been replaced, respectively, by NOT VIA DONCASTR and VIA WARRINGTON.
     
  30. supervalkoinen

    supervalkoinen Member

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    I'm aware of several fare anomalies in this geographical area, some of which work for the passenger, some against.

    I'm far from an expert, but I suspect that they have arisen for a variety of reasons, among them: 'comparatively new' station at Eastham Rake, use of Warrington stations as a group, plus the number of different TOCs setting fares.
     

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