Trivia: Most frequent buses in the country?

[Mutant Lemming]

Who mentioned peak times?

I'll admit I was thinking of daytimes rather than nighttime.

Only measuring at 0200 seemed to be a fairly random way of measuring the overall business of a bus corridor too.

Yes, but I did mention different times and I mentioned 2 a.m. as that is when the starkest contrast would occur.

 

[Busaholic]

Depends which part of Oxford Street you mean- east of Oxford Circus wouldn't fit the bill, especially since Crossrail works got going. It's a question of which section of the western half has the most buses, Marble Arch to Gloucester Place or Baker Street to Oxford Circus. I'd have said the latter until the 113 got diverted to Marble Arch rather than Oxford Circus, now I suspect it's the former, although it's a fairly close thing. If I get a spare hour or three I'll work it out and let you know. There has been a concerted effort to reduce the number of buses travelling along Oxford Street in the last year or two and routes 6,7 and 23 (twice) have seen peak frequencies cut, and the 15 no longer serves it at all.

 

[Tom B]

Certainly the W7 is up there - every 3 minutes peaks, every 5 offpeaks.

Edinburgh's 22 is/was every 2 minutes during peaks, once upon a time.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Depends which part of Oxford Street you mean- east of Oxford Circus wouldn't fit the bill, especially since Crossrail works got going. It's a question of which section of the western half has the most buses, Marble Arch to Gloucester Place or Baker Street to Oxford Circus. I'd have said the latter until the 113 got diverted to Marble Arch rather than Oxford Circus, now I suspect it's the former, although it's a fairly close thing. If I get a spare hour or three I'll work it out and let you know. There has been a concerted effort to reduce the number of buses travelling along Oxford Street in the last year or two and routes 6,7 and 23 (twice) have seen peak frequencies cut, and the 15 no longer serves it at all.

I actually made the suggestion of closing Oxford Street to all vehicles and replacing the buses with a horse tramway. The horse trams would be quicker than the buses, greener than the buses and the infrastructure costs would be a lot less than that of an electric tramway. A corner of Hyde park could be given up to locate the stables. The tramway would also become a tourist attraction in it's own right. Was wondering what modern horse car design would suit best. Only problem is to where all those buses that currently run on Oxford Street would go. Though the original idea was for the tramway to coincide with the opening of Crossrail.

 

[Busaholic]

I actually made the suggestion of closing Oxford Street to all vehicles and replacing the buses with a horse tramway. The horse trams would be quicker than the buses, greener than the buses and the infrastructure costs would be a lot less than that of an electric tramway. A corner of Hyde park could be given up to locate the stables. The tramway would also become a tourist attraction in it's own right. Was wondering what modern horse car design would suit best. Only problem is to where all those buses that currently run on Oxford Street would go. Though the original idea was for the tramway to coincide with the opening of Crossrail.

If the potential signalling problems with Crossrail identified by some on another thread (but equally denied by others) come to pass, perhaps those horses could be employed through the tunnels instead.

 

[Batman]

Birmingham's most intensively operated bus route is the 50 city centre - Maypole via King's Heath. It now runs 24 hours a day (one of just 2 West Midlands routes to do that, the other being the 97), although only hourly during the small hours.

The most intensively operated corridor in the Walsall area is the Walsall to Bloxwich corridor with 30 buses an hour of the top of my head, although only 18 take the most direct route. It used to be about 30 an hour direct back when the dreaded Travel A2Z were involved in the Bloxwich bus wars before being closed down in 2009.

The corridor still has 3 operators (NXWM, Arriva and Diamond), but the bus wars have died down an awful lot in recent years.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

If the potential signalling problems with Crossrail identified by some on another thread (but equally denied by others) come to pass, perhaps those horses could be employed through the tunnels instead.

It would raise the animal rights issue with regard to pit ponies though as there would be a need for teams of 'bank horses' required to assist with the steeper grades. There would also be the additional cost of creating underground stabling facilities and run rounds in the vicinity of the gradients.

 

[Busaholic]

It would raise the animal rights issue with regard to pit ponies though as there would be a need for teams of 'bank horses' required to assist with the steeper grades. There would also be the additional cost of creating underground stabling facilities and run rounds in the vicinity of the gradients.

Ex Derby winners could be employed to run some express services.

 

[Statto]

Birmingham's most intensively operated bus route is the 50 city centre - Maypole via King's Heath. It now runs 24 hours a day (one of just 2 West Midlands routes to do that, the other being the 97), although only hourly during the small hours.

The most intensively operated corridor in the Walsall area is the Walsall to Bloxwich corridor with 30 buses an hour of the top of my head, although only 18 take the most direct route. It used to be about 30 an hour direct back when the dreaded Travel A2Z were involved in the Bloxwich bus wars before being closed down in 2009.

The corridor still has 3 operators (NXWM, Arriva and Diamond), but the bus wars have died down an awful lot in recent years.

Not sure of the buses per hour Birmingham-Perry Barr has quite a few frequent routes, mix between express & stoppers, X51 is the only route that doesn't stop at Perry Barr.

 

[Batman]

Not sure of the buses per hour Birmingham-Perry Barr has quite a few frequent routes, mix between express & stoppers, X51 is the only route that doesn't stop at Perry Barr.

It depends on what you mean by Perry Barr. You're correct that the X51 is the only bus not to stop anywhere in Perry Barr. But then there's the 56, 907, 934, 935, 936 and 997 which don't stop at Perry Barr bus station, but do stop at the bus stop on Aldridge Road, near the top of Wellhead Lane.

 

[Deerfold]

I actually made the suggestion of closing Oxford Street to all vehicles and replacing the buses with a horse tramway. The horse trams would be quicker than the buses, greener than the buses and the infrastructure costs would be a lot less than that of an electric tramway. A corner of Hyde park could be given up to locate the stables. The tramway would also become a tourist attraction in it's own right. Was wondering what modern horse car design would suit best. Only problem is to where all those buses that currently run on Oxford Street would go. Though the original idea was for the tramway to coincide with the opening of Crossrail.

And what would you do with all the manure generated? This was a big problem in the early days of public transport in London.

 

[Busaholic]

And what would you do with all the manure generated? This was a big problem in the early days of public transport in London.

It is still a huge problem in the Palace of Westminster area, dealt with by vast expenditures of public money.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

Ex Derby winners could be employed to run some express services.

Come back Shergar all is forgiven.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

And what would you do with all the manure generated? This was a big problem in the early days of public transport in London.

Another business opportunity - get Alan Titchmarsh down as a horse tram driver for the day and start marketing it for the garden with a stall set up at Marble Arch.
Alternatively a spur service could operate down to Parliament Square carrying the manure down their as no one would notice it with the amount of horse **** round there.

 

[harz99]

Probably irrelevant now, but back in the days when RT and RM family vehicles ran most services the combined peak time headway of routes 59/59a/109/159 between BN garage and Kennington was every 45 seconds.

Yet everyone seemed to want to get on my full and standing 109.

 

[Busaholic]

Probably irrelevant now, but back in the days when RT and RM family vehicles ran most services the combined peak time headway of routes 59/59a/109/159 between BN garage and Kennington was every 45 seconds.

Yet everyone seemed to want to get on my full and standing 109.

Because, if going beyond Kennington, yours was the only one that could be guaranteed not to have a crew changeover there. Were you out of Brixton or Thornton Heath?

 

[harz99]

Because, if going beyond Kennington, yours was the only one that could be guaranteed not to have a crew changeover there. Were you out of Brixton or Thornton Heath?

Both; TH in the RT years and BN in the DM years. Oh, and TC in the 59 (Sun) RML years!

Never really thought of it like that but I suppose the same could be said at BN southbound. Although many of the ones I was thinking of were simply travelling stops between Telford Avenue and Gresham Road

 

[Busaholic]

Both; TH in the RT years and BN in the DM years. Oh, and TC in the 59 (Sun) RML years!

Never really thought of it like that but I suppose the same could be said at BN southbound. Although many of the ones I was thinking of were simply travelling stops between Telford Avenue and Gresham Road

What was your policy on overtaking? I can remember in the last crew days on several occasions being on a 159 southbound a few yards behind a no. 3 OPO that I wished to catch and it never quite happening, sometimes not even at Brixton Station!

 

[harz99]

What was your policy on overtaking? I can remember in the last crew days on several occasions being on a 159 southbound a few yards behind a no. 3 OPO that I wished to catch and it never quite happening, sometimes not even at Brixton Station!

Haha! Overtaking in the RT years almost never happened due to always being full, and having to stop at every stop to set down/pick up.

Only time was usually when full with longer distance travellers and 3 bells given, and that depended on the conductor. I remember odd occasions working with conductors who deliberately rang the bell for request stops if you looked like passing another bus.

The DM years were a bit different, because we drivers had full control of the bus and could indulge in a bit of stop bumping if we wished. But again it was hard for a doored bus to keep up with an RM stop to stop if the crew of the RM wanted to keep going, due to the extended stop dwell times of a DM.

 

[Busaholic]

Haha! Overtaking in the RT years almost never happened due to always being full, and having to stop at every stop to set down/pick up.

Only time was usually when full with longer distance travellers and 3 bells given, and that depended on the conductor. I remember odd occasions working with conductors who deliberately rang the bell for request stops if you looked like passing another bus.

The DM years were a bit different, because we drivers had full control of the bus and could indulge in a bit of stop bumping if we wished. But again it was hard for a doored bus to keep up with an RM stop to stop if the crew of the RM wanted to keep going, due to the extended stop dwell times of a DM.

Thanks for that. One last question,though, if you don't mind. Was there any great rivalry between TH and BN like there used to be on the 236 at Tottenham and Leyton, the 207 at Hanwell and Uxbridge and the 94 at Carford and Bromley? TH and BN on the 109 of course followed on from tram days and one or other or both garages working it is about to be broken with Abellio taking the contract from 31st January and working it from Beddington Cross.

 

[Mutant Lemming]

What was your policy on overtaking? I can remember in the last crew days on several occasions being on a 159 southbound a few yards behind a no. 3 OPO that I wished to catch and it never quite happening, sometimes not even at Brixton Station!

There are a number of instances throughout London where people change between routes where they share a common section (can think of the 83 and 302 for instance). I recall back in the 80s when in Vancouver the Canadians had 'Bus Exchanges' where buses on different routes on a section of same stretch of road would connect with each other. Probably not an issue with standard daytime frequencies but for evening and night services am sure it would be a useful idea for the London bus network.

 

[PermitToTravel]

I've been on buses where a passenger has worriedly remarked that they'd miss the bus in front they wished to connect to; and the very very helpful driver has overtaken that bus and made some time up in front of it to give them more of a chance.

 

[Deerfold]

There are a number of instances throughout London where people change between routes where they share a common section (can think of the 83 and 302 for instance). I recall back in the 80s when in Vancouver the Canadians had 'Bus Exchanges' where buses on different routes on a section of same stretch of road would connect with each other. Probably not an issue with standard daytime frequencies but for evening and night services am sure it would be a useful idea for the London bus network.

Sounds to have the potential to slow down services - presumably all the services need to have the same frequency or multiples of the same frequency. If one route is delayed do all the other routes have to wait for it? If not, I don't see the point in doing it, if they do then you're introducing a lot of potential delays. You're also introducing a lot of complexity if buses will only do this at certain times.

With over a hundred night routes and far more evening routes I suspect there'd be a lot of these points that would require some management.

 

[harz99]

Thanks for that. One last question,though, if you don't mind. Was there any great rivalry between TH and BN like there used to be on the 236 at Tottenham and Leyton, the 207 at Hanwell and Uxbridge and the 94 at Carford and Bromley? TH and BN on the 109 of course followed on from tram days and one or other or both garages working it is about to be broken with Abellio taking the contract from 31st January and working it from Beddington Cross.

Not really any rivalry to speak of. Headway on the 109 itself was 5-8 minutes from memory, less in the peak between the Swan & Sugarloaf and Gresham Road due to additional workings.

TH had the lions share of Purley workings, BN the lions share of TC workings.

The Purley terminators had minimum stand time most of the day, so if you were late getting there, you were late leaving, because the instruction was the engine MUST be turned off and allowed to cool (because running via the Embankment had no official stand time that end).

That in turn led to bunching from TC northbound, as the TC terminators had longer stand times, and thus were normally on time leaving. The BN crews rarely, if ever, passed a TH bus in this situation before Gresham Road unless they were coming of for meal break/finish at BN. On passing Gresham Road the situation changed due to the routing beyond Kennington splitting the service anyway.

 

[ValleyLines142]

However, neither the 52 nor the 120 meet the "all journeys running the full length" definition that you may want to apply to this kind of thread. Still the most frequent in Yorkshire, as far I can see.

Just to keep things simple, this is fine. All routes have their variations, so we'd be going on forever otherwise!

Good example.

I also forgot to mention First Bristol's 75/76. For a service that is almost two hours end to end (Cribbs Causeway to Hengrove), the service is remarkably frequent; it is also a cross-city service. With a PVR of 44 that explains it's very high frequency!

 

[Busaholic]

I've done my figures, and I estimate the following b.p.h. in the a.m. peak at its busiest hour in Oxford Street:-

Marble Arch to Gloucester Place = 149 bph in each direction, total 298 bph
Baker Street to John Lewis = 130 bph in each direction, total 260 bph

P.M. peak figures aren't too much different, probably 4 or 5 bph fewer in each direction. Between peaks take off around another 10 bph from these figures and you'll see why, other than for running time, peak extras on London buses are by no means universal on all routes, or even the majority these days.

Comparable figures for, say, 2002 i.e. when most of these routes were still Routemaster operated would, in my estimation have been around 330 and 290 total for the two sections, since when conscious efforts have been made to reduce bus emissions in Oxford Street.

 

[deltic]

I've done my figures, and I estimate the following b.p.h. in the a.m. peak at its busiest hour in Oxford Street:-

Marble Arch to Gloucester Place = 149 bph in each direction, total 298 bph
Baker Street to John Lewis = 130 bph in each direction, total 260 bph

P.M. peak figures aren't too much different, probably 4 or 5 bph fewer in each direction. Between peaks take off around another 10 bph from these figures and you'll see why, other than for running time, peak extras on London buses are by no means universal on all routes, or even the majority these days.

Comparable figures for, say, 2002 i.e. when most of these routes were still Routemaster operated would, in my estimation have been around 330 and 290 total for the two sections, since when conscious efforts have been made to reduce bus emissions in Oxford Street.

In 2009 TfL stated there were 160bph in each direction during the peaks on Oxford Street

 

[Busaholic]

In 2009 TfL stated there were 160bph in each direction during the peaks on Oxford Street

That would be about right -since then the 15 route has been withdrawn from Oxford Street, with a loss of about 8 bph in each direction and the 6,7 and 23 have lost a couple of bph each. I've studied each individual current timetable to get my figures. 149 bph represents a bus every 24 seconds, so 298 one every 12 seconds passing you if you stood at a fixed point.Can't imagine this can be bettered anywhere in Britain, Europe or USA. I wouldn't extend that claim to India or China as I've no idea.

 

[PermitToTravel]

It might also be that TfL are counting National Express coaches heading towards the M1 via the bit of Oxford Street between the Marble Arch and Baker Street (or whatever the latter's continuation happens to be called)

 

[Busaholic]

It might also be that TfL are counting National Express coaches heading towards the M1 via the bit of Oxford Street between the Marble Arch and Baker Street (or whatever the latter's continuation happens to be called)

Unlikely, both because I doubt accurate figures exist and more because TfL aren't in a position to influence or determine how many coaches use this section : don't forget, it is the section east of Gloucester Place or Baker Street which is restricted to buses (not coaches) and taxis.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Coaches count as buses for the purposes of road traffic law and are allowed to use the full length of Oxford Street. Where it has been desired to prevent them, a sign is used like "TfL authorised buses only", the Local buses only sign, or even "LT Buses Only" (though I've no link for the latter as I can't remember where I've seen it)