Trivia: Oldest design of rolling stock to enter service as new

[brad465]

Electrostars like the 387s are around 13-15 years older than the 375s, broadly of the same design and certainly part of the same overall train family.

 

[D7666]

Surely the answer lies at least with traction \ motive power with one of the retro "new" things like :

Tornado kettle (A1 1948, Tornado 2008) = 60 years)
P2 kettle (P2 1934, new not completed yet) = 87 years and counting......

Or maybe one of the other kettle new build projects ... I cant be bothered look them all up.

But even without those, LU battery locos - 1936 first batch, 1985 last batch, = 49 years apart is longer than the C stock cars or other LT \ LU suggestions.

If one nit picks over things like updated designs, then almost all other suggestions do not fit either - even the last built 377/5s and 377/6s are quite a lot different than the orginal 357\375\377 (after discounting different traction systems and end gangways or lack thereof), never mind 387s.

Anything with a "brandname" like 'electrostar' always varies over time, all the rail industry is doing is mimic automotive and aircraft. Todays Boeing 737 is not much like the original 737s apart from the fuselage ring size. I bet if all 357s and 375s and 377s and 387s etc were not called 'electrostar' no-one would be counting them as the same.

BR NER and BR SR were building 21 t coal hoppers and 40 t bogie ballast hoppers in late 50s \ early 60s to late Victorian or Edwardian NER and LSWR designs respectively - I suspect the 21 t hopper might be the longest lived mainly unaltered recognisable design, the basic 16 t wagon changed quite a lot more over time.

 

[gimmea50anyday]

Electrostars like the 387s are around 13-15 years older than the 375s, broadly of the same design and certainly part of the same overall train family.

and along with the previously mentioned turbostars owe their design to the networker family 165/365/465 and proposed 471 as the blueprints were passed on from BREL to ABB, AdTranz and finally Bombardier. I understand Aventuras are an evolvement of the design so could they be counted?

 

[coppercapped]

An example from another mode of transport — the Boeing 747 first flew in February 1969 and the last ones will be completed next year. A 54 year production run...

 

[Mat17]

Weren't some MK3 vehicles (carriages rather than units) being built in the late 1980s?

 

[Journeyman]

An example from another mode of transport — the Boeing 747 first flew in February 1969 and the last ones will be completed next year. A 54 year production run...

The 737 has lasted even longer, and of course the fuselage is derived from the even older 707. This is, of course, the main reason the 737-MAX has been such a problem - the old fuselage design hasn't been suitable for modern engines, and the whole thing turned into a disastrous fudge.

 

[D7666]

An example from another mode of transport — the Boeing 747 first flew in February 1969 and the last ones will be completed next year. A 54 year production run...

already beaten up thread the 737 flew first 1967 and still in full production (even if the latest don’t work properly)

and along with the previously mentioned turbostars owe their design to the networker family 165/365/465 and proposed 471 as the blueprints were passed on from BREL to ABB, AdTranz and finally Bombardier. I understand Aventuras are an evolvement of the design so could they be counted?

networkers are extruded aluminuim and welds

electrostars are welded aluminuim sections

completely different form of construction

if you want to put those two together then you may as well say the Pep EMU and the Mk3 EMU and Networkers and Electostars and Aventras are all the same for no other reason than they are successive builds

 

[bramling]

already beaten up thread the 737 flew first 1967 and still in full production (even if the latest don’t work properly)


networkers are extruded aluminuim and welds

electrostars are welded aluminuim sections

completely different form of construction

if you want to put those two together then you may as well say the Pep EMU and the Mk3 EMU and Networkers and Electostars and Aventras are all the same for no other reason than they are successive builds

Agreed that Networkers and Electrostars are different. I’d say the whole Electrostar family is sufficiently similar though - from 357 through to 387.

 

[Bessie]

Lady of Legend 2999 GWR 2900 Saint Class built 2019. Design first used/built in 1902. That's a gap of 117 years!

 

[edwin_m]

if you want to put those two together then you may as well say the Pep EMU and the Mk3 EMU and Networkers and Electostars and Aventras are all the same for no other reason than they are successive builds

All apart from the Aventra also have the same bogies, or at least versions of the same basic design, except for the power bogies of the Mk3-derifed EMUs.

 

[janahan]

Ok, to avoid going down the rather subjective rabbit hole of what is similar and what is not, maybe we should look at instead any new builds that are created from the same plans, or blueprints of the original.
Allowing for:

• More modern manufacturing, as long as the materials, specifications and visual appearance are the same.
• If modern manufacturing improves tolerances that can improve performance or reliability slightly, this should be allowed as long as fundamentally meet the specifications of the original.
• Any "fixes" that doesnt significantly change either the apperance or function of the original should be allowed, but not those that fundamentally it alters the type (for example a small flange to help prevent a crankshaft from vibrating, or better rivetting on the boiler to help prevent explosions when run to the orignal spec).
• Materials should be same as the original, unless that material is no longer allowed or available (eg replacement of asbestos to something different). Steel to aluminium in large areas is not allowed, as that fundamentally changes many things.
• Apart from colour/paint and very small cosmetic changes the appearance should be the same as original (obviously changes due to new rules and regulations should be permitted such as lights, unless again they fundamentally change the design)

With all this in mind, I think the afore mentioned A1 Peppercorn Tornado must be a contender. Also the many replicas of the Rocket or its original carraiges based on its original design must come close?

 

[norbitonflyer]

The ffestiniog is building a new double Fairlie (essentially a Bo-Bo steam locomotive) which is to be a replica of the second Fairlie ever to be built - "James Spooner", built in 1872. Construction has been delayed by COVID so it may be more than 150 years between the two of them. (The first Fairlie, "Little Wonder", was built in 1869)

 

[HSP 2]

Are rebuilds counted?

 

[fgwrich]

and along with the previously mentioned turbostars owe their design to the networker family 165/365/465 and proposed 471 as the blueprints were passed on from BREL to ABB, AdTranz and finally Bombardier. I understand Aventuras are an evolvement of the design so could they be counted?

The Aventra is a completely new design (I believe it took at least 3 attempts to bring it off the drawing board). There's a number of notable design features bought over to the fleet by Christian Roth (a man once known as Mr Siemens due to his involvement in bringing the Desiro to the UK) including the very Germanic / Desiro-esq roofline.

The Electrostars are a bit of an odd one - there's little different to the interiors between the first generation units from the early 2000s and the last built 387s in 2016 / 2017, the biggest differences being in the Software departments.

 

[eastwestdivide]

...BR NER and BR SR were building 21 t coal hoppers and 40 t bogie ballast hoppers in late 50s \ early 60s to late Victorian or Edwardian NER and LSWR designs respectively...

In fact the last BR Seacow ballast hoppers (to that same basic 40t design, but better brakes and bogies) were built around 1981/82.
This page

bogie ballast hoppers – Southern Railway, Fisherton Sarum, Canute Road Quay & Westhill Road

Posts about bogie ballast hoppers written by grahammuz

southern-railway.com

says the basic design was from 1903/04.
Are there still a few of the later models knocking round in preservation at least?

 

[DelW]

In the field of steam "re-creations", surely the ultimate record holder will be the Severn Valley's mark 2 version of Trevithick's "Catch Me Who Can", due to be completed rather more than 210 years after the original?

 

[D7666]

In fact the last BR Seacow ballast hoppers (to that same basic 40t design, but better brakes and bogies) were built around 1981/82.
This page

bogie ballast hoppers – Southern Railway, Fisherton Sarum, Canute Road Quay & Westhill Road

Posts about bogie ballast hoppers written by grahammuz

southern-railway.com

says the basic design was from 1903/04.
Are there still a few of the later models knocking round in preservation at least?

thanks - wow I dodn't know Seacow were that late build, into 1980s.

 

[DelW]

In the last few years, Aston Martin has built short production runs of DB4s and DB5s, to the original 1960s specification and with follow-on chassis numbers. That's around 55 years after the first production sequence.

Being original spec, they're not road legal, as they don't comply with modern emissions or safety regulations.

 

[D7666]

Lady of Legend 2999 GWR 2900 Saint Class built 2019. Design first used/built in 1902. That's a gap of 117 years!

I did think of that one, but 2999 is a rebuild, uses significant compoments from 4942, so outside the question - it is not new, other than from the trainspotting OCD numbers view.

The LNER re-creations are new build.

 

[Dunfanaghy Rd]

GS&WR 101 class 0-6-0's (sometimes called J15's). First built 1866 last built 1903.
Pat

 

[158747]

Depending on your take on the question, the Turbostar (built up to 2005) is essentially the same basic design as the Networker Turbo introduced in 1990. The design has evolved over the years but I would consider the class 172 with mechanical transmission as the point it became a truly different type.

The design of the Turbostar is quite different to the Networker Turbo. The body shell of the Turbo is of welded construction, whereas the Turbostar is formed of several sub-assemblies of roof, floor and various side and end assemblies which are then bolted together.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Weren't some MK3 vehicles (carriages rather than units) being built in the late 1980s?

Yes; 17173, 17174 and 17175 were built in 1986.

 

[Journeyman]

Yes; 17173, 17174 and 17175 were built in 1986.

The Driving Van Trailers were the last Mark 3 vehicles of all - they were built in 1988.

 

[Peter Mugridge]

The Driving Van Trailers were the last Mark 3 vehicles of all - they were built in 1988.

Yes... I forgot about those!!!

 

[D7666]

surely the “last mark 3 vehicles of all” were class 325 in 1995, or possibly (?) were there accident replacement cars for 321 etc even after that
further back up it said carriages not units, but here it said vehicles, which counts then all

 

[AlistairCowell]

surely the “last mark 3 vehicles of all” were class 325 in 1995, or possibly (?) were there accident replacement cars for 321 etc even after that
further back up it said carriages not units, but here it said vehicles, which counts then all

321420 (now with ScotRail as 320420) was built in the late 1990s to replace the damage vehicles involved in the Watford Crash in 1996. The new unit 420 was built shortly after the Class 325 batch, maybe about 1997 or 98.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

1999 to 2017 (18 Years) AdTranz/Bombardier Electrostar (357s/375s/376s/377s/378s/379s/387s)

 

[David Goddard]

Didcot's Firefly was built in 2005 to an 1840 design, so 165 years on.

 

[Bevan Price]

In the field of steam "re-creations", surely the ultimate record holder will be the Severn Valley's mark 2 version of Trevithick's "Catch Me Who Can", due to be completed rather more than 210 years after the original?

And until that arrives, there is the 1979 replica of Stephenson's Rocket (1829) - and there are also replicas of "Sans Pareil" (1979 / original 1829), "Locomotion No.1" (1975/original 1825). and "Puffing Billy" (2005/ original 1813 or 1814)

 

[Irascible]

How far are we pushing this? GWR 1600 class - last built 1955 - was basically the same design as the 850 class of 1874 ( or if that's too much of a stretch, the 2021 class of 1897 ). I get the feeling one of the companies that made up the SR might beat that though.