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Trivia: places with infrequent trains to London and similarly rare services.

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Magdalia

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If St Pancras - Leeds continued until 1981, it never ceased as the following timetable was the introduction of HSTs until 1982. When would they have been diverted via the ECML and Wakefield Westgate, rather than the MML Wath Road Junction - Goose Hill Junction and Normanton?
I think it did cease briefly between May 1982 and the start of HSTs, which I recall as being a gradual cascade starting part way through the 1982/83 timetable, the "full" HST service being introduced from May 1983.

There's also the possibility of going via the curve Moorthorpe-South Kirkby Junction.
 
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Ninian Park is an interesting case. Served by the Radyr to Coryton City Line most of the day, but has early morning trains to each of Milford Haven and Pembroke Dock, 1 each. In the late evening it has trains from Maesteg, Tenby and Milford Haven ( 1 from each).
 

Bantamzen

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Just to Carnforth. Just Why?
I'm not entirely sure, I think I may have read elsewhere that it is part unit move & part replacement for one of the lost 2 hourly Skipton services. But whatever the reason, it sticks out from the rest of the services out of Bradford Forster Square.
 

Deerfold

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I'm not entirely sure, I think I may have read elsewhere that it is part unit move & part replacement for one of the lost 2 hourly Skipton services. But whatever the reason, it sticks out from the rest of the services out of Bradford Forster Square.
There's no path for it to get into Lancaster - it arrives a few minutes before another service to Lancaster, so passengers are expected to transfer at Carnforth. On some occasions when there's been a problem with the other service it has tajen that service's path into Lancaster.

Also no path for it to get out of Leeds.
 

Bantamzen

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There's no path for it to get into Lancaster - it arrives a few minutes before another service to Lancaster, so passengers are expected to transfer at Carnforth. On some occasions when there's been a problem with the other service it has tajen that service's path into Lancaster.

Also no path for it to get out of Leeds.
Just on the latter, it does run ECS from Leeds to Bradford FS:

5H03: Leeds - Bradford FS ECS
 
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70014IronDuke

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The GNR also ran portions from Kings Cross - Bradford Exchange, but why was their route significantly faster with Deltic haulage, not exceeding 100mph? Even then, a benefit of the MML would have been the vast amount of additional capacity this provided.

ITYWF the GN route was always faster, even with steam, but the difference was not that great back then. With diesel haulage, the difference in line speed (100 mph and 90 mph) accentuated the difference in schedules. The MML was not only slower (at 90 mph max), but it had series of psrs through St Albans, Luton, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro, Wigston and Trent. OK, some of these were 'only' 80 mph, but others were more severe. North of Trent, the Erewash Valley in the 60s and 70s was riddled with psrs caused by mining subsidence.

Having invested in Deltics, MAS and CWR, it made perfect sense to concentrate long-distance London - Wakefield - Leeds - Bradford traffic on the GN.
 

507020

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ITYWF the GN route was always faster, even with steam, but the difference was not that great back then. With diesel haulage, the difference in line speed (100 mph and 90 mph) accentuated the difference in schedules. The MML was not only slower (at 90 mph max), but it had series of psrs through St Albans, Luton, Wellingboro, Kettering, Mkt Harboro, Wigston and Trent. OK, some of these were 'only' 80 mph, but others were more severe. North of Trent, the Erewash Valley in the 60s and 70s was riddled with psrs caused by mining subsidence.

Having invested in Deltics, MAS and CWR, it made perfect sense to concentrate long-distance London - Wakefield - Leeds - Bradford traffic on the GN.
I am aware of the issues with mining subsidence on the MML, particularly on the missing closed sections, but how significant would the infrastructure work to remove these psrs have been and how much of it has since been done when the line speed was subsequently raised? I believe some sections are now 110mph or 125mph aren't they. The GWML fast lines required some significant amounts of slewing e.g. at Twyford, but incidentally the relief lines on Brunel's original alignment didn't. Wasn't any of the MML built to 4 tracks from new?

The initial investment in modernising the ECML with Deltics e.t.c. was very impressive and the MML does of course not serve Wakefield, but if it had received the same level of upgrades, would it still have been slower?
 

70014IronDuke

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I am aware of the issues with mining subsidence on the MML, particularly on the missing closed sections, but how significant would the infrastructure work to remove these psrs have been
I am not a civil engineer, but when the ground is collapsing beneath the p way because of mine shafts hundreds and thousands of feet below, I'd say it would cost many, many millions (even at 1970 prices). In fact, it might simply be unsolvable, given the risks involved. Hopefully, some of our civ engineering experts might enlighten us more.

and how much of it has since been done when the line speed was subsequently raised?
Again, not a civil engineer, but what I suspect is that the subsidence problems largely solved themselves by natural collapsing over time. The civil and signalling engineers would then get to work to raise the line speeds at "normal" costing rates applicable at the time.

I believe some sections are now 110mph or 125mph aren't they. The GWML fast lines required some significant amounts of slewing e.g. at Twyford, but incidentally the relief lines on Brunel's original alignment didn't. Wasn't any of the MML built to 4 tracks from new?
ITYWF NO lines were ever built as four track routes. We had a thread on this issue some time back. (Remember, the railways were built as private ventures. Very few companies, if any, would invest in four-track routes before 'testing the waters' with a two-track route. Private capital does not take such massive risks.)

But the answer to your question regarding the Midland, no, I'm 99% sure none of it was ever built as four track from new (other than, perhaps, short sections built as junctions,or, possibly, short sections built for special purposes, such as to hold banking locos - but that wouldn't really constitute a four-track section as you mean it).

The initial investment in modernising the ECML with Deltics e.t.c. was very impressive and the MML does of course not serve Wakefield, but if it had received the same level of upgrades, would it still have been slower?
Almost certainly slower, yes - assuming you mean by 'same level' of upgrades you are measuring that in money terms.
Obviously, if you spent billions and billions to iron out all the PSRs on the Midland, including running through Leicester and Sheffield at something like 100 - 110 mph :), the it would come down to a simple formula of distance/velocity, and if the Midland route is shorter (I doubt it is, but it might have been) you could beat the GN route by a matter of minutes, or possibly just seconds. But that belongs to a fantasy thread.

The Midland did (and does) serve Normanton, of course - I don't know how much the good burghers of Wakefield consider(ed) that as a sort of "Wakefield Parkway" station.
 

GoneSouth

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They don’t run beyond Sheffield now. The last service to Leeds ran up until the last May timetable change, but it was only a single northbound train from London. The return leg from Leeds only went to Derby.
Massive shame that there is no decent service between Leeds Sheffield Nottingham and Leicester. I used the old EMR HST train from Leeds a few times when there were a couple every day and returns in the evening, far better than the dire Northern services to the East Mids these days (although admittedly these do run all day).

Newcastle to Banbury, one each way with Cross Country. There used to be a good service between the Northeast and the Southeast.
Will XC ever resume regular NE to Reading I wonder. They dont seem like they can be a**** to improve anything atm!

There's the one a day, in one direction only Bradford Forster Square - Carnforth. Not only is it a unique run from Bradford, but it is I believe the only DMU to run out of Bradford FS, usually a 2 car 158.

Bradford FS - Carnforth 15/09/22(
Bizarre but I like it. When Bradford gets its tunnel 8-)8-)8-) this service will be able to start from Brighouse, thus not quite reaching connections for TPE (Hudds) or Avanti (Lancaster). It will however still be “operationally convenient” to run ! <(
 
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30907

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ITYWF the GN route was always faster, even with steam, but the difference was not that great back then.
Looking at the 1958 summary timetable on Timetableworld, the best times were about 45min faster by the GN, though the average difference was more like 30min.
 

High Dyke

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I am aware of this one

I have noticed Lincoln Central has 2 trains to and 1 train from St Pancras in addition to 6 trains to and from Kings Cross, but unlike the Corby service, I'm assuming they aren't the only services that run on the line.
Indeed. Lowdham has one London service call in the morning, but the other passes through. The return service in the evening also calls.
Lincoln has just one train a day to St Pancras as an extension to the Nottingham service.
Two outward, but only one returns to Lincoln.

Under BR the Cleethorpes - London service operated via Lincoln. This gave Market Rasen one return trip a day. Similarly, there used to be a Skegness - London (SO) trip during the summer; also called at Boston, providing them with a through service not seen since 1970. However, that was all lost under privatisation.
 

nw1

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Until the 2000s Cannon Street would be the classic example as it was served by weekday peak services only - this still applies to the longer distance Southeastern routes.

Looks like all-day services came and went over the years. For most of the 80s I remember there was a 15-min interval shuttle to London Bridge off-peak Mon-Fri and nothing at the weekend; however it looks like in 1981/2 and 1982/3 there were also various suburban services to Dartford, Hayes, etc Mon-Fri off-peak (but still nothing at the weekend).

London Waterloo - Southampton Central (via Haslemere), once per weekday.

This is the only train from Waterloo which serves the stations between Fareham and Southampton. The normal London services are to/from Victoria.

Another example is the local stations between Southampton and Bournemouth, which only have peak-hour and Sunday trains to/from London, with Beaulieu Road being the worst that no service to London is provided at all on weekdays.

Beaulieu Road of course has its best service all-round on Sundays, with an hourly service. This has been the case since some time in the 90s, IIRC: it's been a long time since it had an hourly service on Mon-Sat. Two-hourly has been typical and for a while it was much worse than that, something like 4-hourly Mon to Fri.

I know there was a 7-day hourly service in the 1991/92 timetable, but it must have disappeared shortly after that. At that time the Mon-Sat was a Portsmouth to Wareham all-stations and the Sun was a Waterloo semi-fast much as now.

Interestingly there is an hourly service which could stop, it's just in alternate hours they choose not to!
 
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70014IronDuke

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Looking at the 1958 summary timetable on Timetableworld, the best times were about 45min faster by the GN, though the average difference was more like 30min.
Interesting that it was that much difference at that point. Wonder the LMR bothered by that time. I suppose the Erewash psrs must have been crippling around then.
 

Marton

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The frequent mention of Bradford reminds me that Exchange had services to Marylebone via Huddersfield, Penistone and Sheffield Victoria prior to the closure of the GC Route in the Beeching era.
 

Trainfan2019

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How about the 2 cross country trains per day from Congleton to the south if they're still timetabled? One direction only I think.
 

Kite159

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How about the 2 cross country trains per day from Congleton to the south if they're still timetabled? One direction only I think.
They were a victim of XC cuts during Covid, and I think the timetable no longer makes any reference to Congleton as being unadvertised stops.
 

Snow1964

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Bradford-on-Avon and Wiltshire’s county town, Trowbridge have one train a day to London Paddington (via Newbury), at 05:35 and 05:41 respectively.

There are no direct return trains from London

Not sure if Wiltshire has the only English county town which can’t be reached from London on a direct train
 

507020

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The frequent mention of Bradford reminds me that Exchange had services to Marylebone via Huddersfield, Penistone and Sheffield Victoria prior to the closure of the GC Route in the Beeching era.
This kind of thing I am very interested in. Was this the GCR or LNER? Have you any idea how the GNR got to Manchester Central from Kings Cross?
Not sure if Wiltshire has the only English county town which can’t be reached from London on a direct train
Can Buckingham?
 

BJames

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Bradford-on-Avon and Wiltshire’s county town, Trowbridge have one train a day to London Paddington (via Newbury), at 05:35 and 05:41 respectively.

There are no direct return trains from London

Not sure if Wiltshire has the only English county town which can’t be reached from London on a direct train
Derbyshire's county town is Matlock - all services run only as far as Derby or Nottingham. Can't immediately think of any others (although Oakham has a very limited service to London of I think just one train a day in each direction, the Melton Mowbray EMR via Corby)
 

mangyiscute

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Just did a bit of research, first of all I'm assuming we aren't counting Isle of Wight as Newport obviously doesn't even have a station. The two other examples I've found is that Cambridgeshire have apparently changed the county town to Alconbury Weald last year which has no station, and also Nottinghamshire has West Bridgford as it's county town which as far as I can tell is the section of the Nottingham urban area South of the river Trent
 

A S Leib

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Bradford-on-Avon and Wiltshire’s county town, Trowbridge have one train a day to London Paddington (via Newbury), at 05:35 and 05:41 respectively.

There are no direct return trains from London

Not sure if Wiltshire has the only English county town which can’t be reached from London on a direct train

This kind of thing I am very interested in. Was this the GCR or LNER? Have you any idea how the GNR got to Manchester Central from Kings Cross?

Can Buckingham?

I'd say that half a millennium's long enough for Aylesbury to count instead of Buckingham. Lewes, Maidstone, Chichester, Guildford / Reigate (council's in the latter, formerly in Kingston), Winchester, Oxford, Reading, Aylesbury, Hertford, Bedford, Chelmsford, Ipswich, Norwich, Cambridge (if you count it instead of Alconbury), Huntingdon (if you still count it separately), Dorchester, Taunton, Trowbridge, Gloucester, Bristol, Exeter and Truro do so in the South it's only Alconbury Weald and Newport which don't. In the Midlands there's two trains per day from Oakham to St. Pancras so that's all of them if you stick with Derby and Nottingham (but not if you count Matlock and West Bridgford); Wakefield, York, Beverly and Northallerton have London services but Barnsley doesn't. Chester has one Euston train a day at the moment and Liverpool, Manchester, Lancaster and Carlisle do, but neither Kendal nor Appleby do so Westmorland fails if not counted as Cumbria. Morpeth's fine but Northumberland fails if you count Alnwick as the county town (but Alnmouth has London trains) and Durham and Newcastle are also connected.
 
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