Trivia: Speed Records

[Bald Rick]

Not convinced, Lichfield to Tamworth, they are given 5 minutes to do that on the up, average speed of 75mph and 5½ on the down, average speed of 68mph. Ignoring the fact I think the Up SRT is probably short, I would be surprised if they get to it.

It’s downhill to Tamworth. Following wind, sporty driver...

 

[Gathursty]

Lines begging for a shot at fastest time to complete are the Heart of Wales, Cambrian, Far North and Cumbrian Coast lines.

 

[GNER 91128]

I'm sure I remember doing KGX to PBO in 39 mins on a Saturday evening years ago, but I may be misremembering the departure time of 20:00. I just remember the clock on platform 4 saying 20:39 I'm sure many will be along soon to tell me that can't possibly be right!

 

[alangla]

Lines begging for a shot at fastest time to complete are the Heart of Wales, Cambrian, Far North and Cumbrian Coast lines.

I believe the Far North had some speed enhancements a few years ago including some 90mph stretches. If you could solve the problem of needing to exchange tokens then that should be a prime one

 

[hexagon789]

I believe the Far North had some speed enhancements a few years ago including some 90mph stretches. If you could solve the problem of needing to exchange tokens then that should be a prime one

From memory there is one 90 and one 80 (or 85) section.

A bit faster than loco-hauled days when 65 was the maximum linespeed

 

[Egg Centric]

I believe the Far North had some speed enhancements a few years ago including some 90mph stretches. If you could solve the problem of needing to exchange tokens then that should be a prime one

RETB so they don’t need to stop (nb “knowledge” comes from train simulator)

 

[XAM2175]

RETB so they don’t need to stop (nb “knowledge” comes from train simulator)

The rules as they are at the present time require the train be stopped for the token exchange.

 

[hexagon789]

RETB so they don’t need to stop (nb “knowledge” comes from train simulator)

Afaik you have to stop for exchanges with RETB

 

[BrettSy96]

I'm sure I remember doing KGX to PBO in 39 mins on a Saturday evening years ago, but I may be misremembering the departure time of 20:00. I just remember the clock on platform 4 saying 20:39 I'm sure many will be along soon to tell me that can't possibly be right!

Impressive if correct! The quickest I’ve ever seen is 41 minutes between the two!

 

[Carlisle]

I'm sure I remember doing KGX to PBO in 39 mins on a Saturday evening years ago, but I may be misremembering the departure time of 20:00. I just remember the clock on platform 4 saying 20:39 I'm sure many will be along soon to tell me that can't possibly be right!

The veins in those NSE era platform clocks regularly got stuck, if memory serves correctly

 

[Egg Centric]

The rules as they are at the present time require the train be stopped for the token exchange.

Afaik you have to stop for exchanges with RETB

Is this a technical limitation (e.g. because of signal)? If not, couldn't this rule be suspended for the run?

 

[Bald Rick]

I'm sure I remember doing KGX to PBO in 39 mins on a Saturday evening years ago, but I may be misremembering the departure time of 20:00. I just remember the clock on platform 4 saying 20:39 I'm sure many will be along soon to tell me that can't possibly be right!

An average of 117.5 mph start to stop ... would be impressive given that 30 of the 76 miles have a linespeed lower than that!

 

[Dieseldriver]

I’d be interested to see a London Waterloo to Exeter St David’s via the mule run non stop.
Also a Paddington to Exeter St David’s via the Berks and Hants non stop for comparison purposes.

 

[hexagon789]

An average of 117.5 mph start to stop ... would be impressive given that 30 of the 76 miles have a linespeed lower than that!

Presumably this is one of those 125+ runs?

In all seriousness when first introduced the working time booking non-stop Stevenage-Peterborough (for trains not calling at Stevenage I add) was for an average speed of 120 pass-to-stop. I doubt that was achievable sticking strictly to line limits and I believe it was eased and London-Stevenage tightened. To be fair the booked average to reach Stevenage was quite lax so I imagine that so long as Stevenage was passed early an arrival at Peterborough on time (booked 44 mins from King's Cross) was achievable.

 

[AJM580]

Liverpool Street - Norwich was done in 83 mins by 86220. Would like to see if a 745 could beat that.

 

[Taunton]

1974, Glasgow to Edinburgh. 2 x Class 27 "push-pull". It's 46 miles from Queen Street. The hourly nonstop was scheduled in 39 minutes (43 on to Waverley), and you couldn't beat it as the stopper came in just in front - unless you had a late start. Once were away from Queen Street about 3 minutes behind, so 36 minutes. The first mile is the huge climb to Cowlairs, where even with this power you were lucky to be doing 35mph by the top, thereafter it's all free, flat and pretty straight, though the eastern end at that time still had semaphore signalling, and I think there was a restriction from the prevailing 90mph (both line and loco limit) to 80 through Falkirk tunnel.

And so we arrived at Haymarket on the nose, average of 77mph. Must have been up at 100mph for much of the trip. 1960s technology. Nothing like 39 minutes nowadays as it's been turned into a stopping service only. Maybe Scotrail will have a shot at a nonstop run one day.

 

[GoneSouth]

Loved seeing this. Newcastle to London in 2h 20m. No idea if this is still a record but they did say the train was travelling over 140mph at one point. From what others have said it sounds like that speed isn’t allowed anymore, is that Right? But the IC225 we’re doing that speed weren’t they. If true, why has the speed been reduced. Thanks for any info.

 

[XAM2175]

From what others have said it sounds like that speed isn’t allowed anymore, is that Right? But the IC225 we’re doing that speed weren’t they. If true, why has the speed been reduced. Thanks for any info.

It was decided -after trials with IC225 sets - that at speeds exceeding 125 mph drivers wouldn't be able to consistently and reliably see lineside signals within a safe braking distance. It's still possible to run at 140 mph or even faster where the line supports it, but only with in-cab signalling.

There are also extra regulations requiring platforms to have edge barriers or to be closed for passage of trains faster than 125 mph, and a few other things.

(For comparison, German rules require in-cab signalling above 102 mph)

 

[hexagon789]

Loved seeing this. Newcastle to London in 2h 20m. No idea if this is still a record but they did say the train was travelling over 140mph at one point. From what others have said it sounds like that speed isn’t allowed anymore, is that Right? But the IC225 we’re doing that speed weren’t they. If true, why has the speed been reduced. Thanks for any info.

Special runs where traffic can be cleared out of the way are one thing but doing that day-in, day-out is another.

As touched on XAM2175, actually reading the signals at 140 is one thing, also though tests revealed that in poor adhesion conditions even one additional signal block of braving distance (as per the 5-aspect "flashing green" test section) wasn't reliably enough. In about half the situations the train would SPAD in the tests.

So cab-signalling is a must to give that extra margin of safety in displaying the signal aspects and the increased braking distance this affords from the advanced warning.

 

[Taunton]

(For comparison, German rules require in-cab signalling above 102 mph)

USA has required in-cab signals over 79mph since the 1930s, when it was still all steam. That's almost 100 years ago. It's not as if the technology has not been available off the shelf.

 

[AverageTD]

Liverpool Street - Norwich was done in 83 mins by 86220. Would like to see if a 745 could beat that.

Given that a 90 could do it in 90 mins with a stop at Ipswich, I think a non-stop 745 is in with a fair chance. Was the 86 allowed some leniency with the limits?

 

[XAM2175]

USA has required in-cab signals over 79mph since the 1930s, when it was still all steam. That's almost 100 years ago. It's not as if the technology has not been available off the shelf.

Yes, and Germany's LZB has been in use - with Automatic Train Protection too - since the mid-1960s. My remark was meant to illustrate that the British rules are more permissive.

 

[cambsy]

I think the fastest stop to start from Kings cross-Peterborough is about 41-42 mins, on Railway Performance fastest times, the 1995 London-Edinburgh 3hr 29 mins record run passed Peterborough in 39 mins approx, i have had 225’s doing 135-140mph in service, there’s also logs on Rail Performance Society of same speeds,

I have had various runs over speed limit of track, or loco, several times over the years, best was a 47/8 cab ride from Holyhead-Chester on non stop relief, was doing 99mph on Anglesey from speedo, and 90mph beyond Bangor, was bit of a nutter driver, another great run was Deltic Royal Scots Grey hitting 116mph down Shap and Beattock, on Mk 2’s, on Birmingham-Edinburgh,then Glasgow-Birmingham, Virgin Crosss country runs over a weekend, ive had 86’s 110mph plus. on Euston-Birmingham trains mk2’s, think did Euston-Coventry in about 58 mins once.cant think of any others at the moment.

 

[Bald Rick]

Loved seeing this. Newcastle to London in 2h 20m. No idea if this is still a record but they did say the train was travelling over 140mph at one point. From what others have said it sounds like that speed isn’t allowed anymore, is that Right? But the IC225 we’re doing that speed weren’t they. If true, why has the speed been reduced. Thanks for any info.

The speed hasn’t been reduced. The video shows a special run that was allowed to exceed the published speed limits (and by some margin).

Was the 86 allowed some leniency with the limits?

Rather a lot of leniency!

 

[sjm77]

s touched on XAM2175, actually reading the signals at 140 is one thing, also though tests revealed that in poor adhesion conditions even one additional signal block of braving distance (as per the 5-aspect "flashing green" test section) wasn't reliably enough. In about half the situations the train would SPAD in the tests.

I do remember the flashing greens between Werrington and Stoke Summit from around the late 1980s-1990 time period. I also remember seeing the actual speed limit signs of 140 mph with a small reduction to 135 mph near Maxey. When the higher speed limit signs were in place was 140mph running only allowed during tests or were they also available to passenger services?

 

[AverageTD]

Rather a lot of leniency!

Well if the 745 was allowed leniency like that then it would demolish the 86, but part of me thinks that it could do it while remaining within the speed limit. iirc the 755s have better acceleration on electric than the 745s so if GA really wanted to set a ground breaking time then trying it with a 755 might be the better option.

 

[Statto]

Since WCML electrification, there's been a few Manchester-London in under 2 hours attempts [even using HST sets], always just missing the target by a few minutes, but since the upgrade a Pendolino finally broke the record in 2004 setting a record time of 1 hour 53 minutes.

Record attempts are a lot harder to achieve now with speed limits & safety controls to go with it, the recent London-Glasgow Pendolino attempt only just missed the record by 21 seconds is still an achievement, when the ATP averaged 129MPH on some stretches when the ATP set the record.

 

[hexagon789]

I do remember the flashing greens between Werrington and Stoke Summit from around the late 1980s-1990 time period. I also remember seeing the actual speed limit signs of 140 mph with a small reduction to 135 mph near Maxey. When the higher speed limit signs were in place was 140mph running only allowed during tests or were they also available to passenger services?

Officially test runs only.

Since WCML electrification, there's been a few Manchester-London in under 2 hours attempts [even using HST sets], always just missing the target by a few minutes, but since the upgrade a Pendolino finally broke the record in 2004 setting a record time of 1 hour 53 minutes.

Record attempts are a lot harder to achieve now with speed limits & safety controls to go with it, the recent London-Glasgow Pendolino attempt only just missed the record by 21 seconds is still an achievement, when the ATP averaged 129MPH on some stretches when the ATP set the record.

EPS (back then APT differentials) and tilt is also not as extensive as it was in APT days

USA has required in-cab signals over 79mph since the 1930s, when it was still all steam. That's almost 100 years ago. It's not as if the technology has not been available off the shelf.

Strictly speaking the wording is '80mph and higher', so most railroads chose 79mph. They could chose any speed they wished so long as it was under 80.

The Wabash chose 78mph for example.

In a similar vein, for running in 'dark' unsignalled territory the wording is '60mph and higher' for passenger trains, so again most railroads set a 59mph limit. As an example of a very bizarre means of keeping in with the rules, the Central of Georgia had a 59.9mph limit in its working timetable for its Nancy Hanks II diesel streamliner on the Savannah division. Presumably before the ruling the limit was 60.

 

[AlastairFraser]

1974, Glasgow to Edinburgh. 2 x Class 27 "push-pull". It's 46 miles from Queen Street. The hourly nonstop was scheduled in 39 minutes (43 on to Waverley), and you couldn't beat it as the stopper came in just in front - unless you had a late start. Once were away from Queen Street about 3 minutes behind, so 36 minutes. The first mile is the huge climb to Cowlairs, where even with this power you were lucky to be doing 35mph by the top, thereafter it's all free, flat and pretty straight, though the eastern end at that time still had semaphore signalling, and I think there was a restriction from the prevailing 90mph (both line and loco limit) to 80 through Falkirk tunnel.

And so we arrived at Haymarket on the nose, average of 77mph. Must have been up at 100mph for much of the trip. 1960s technology. Nothing like 39 minutes nowadays as it's been turned into a stopping service only. Maybe Scotrail will have a shot at a nonstop run one day.

Realtime Trains - 1715 Glasgow Queen Street to Edinburgh

Realtime Trains is an independent source of live realtime running information for the Great British railway network.

www.realtimetrains.co.uk

44 mins Glasgow QS to Haymarket with 4 stops seems pretty close to me.
If they took out the stops for a special run, reckon they'd get pretty close or faster given the better acceleration.

 

[Grecian 1998]

I’d be interested to see a London Waterloo to Exeter St David’s via the mule run non stop.
Also a Paddington to Exeter St David’s via the Berks and Hants non stop for comparison purposes.

There was a Waterloo - Salisbury non-stop run in 1993 to mark the introduction of the 159s. Took 59 minutes. The fastest scheduled service ever between Waterloo and Exeter was a 1995 summer Saturday service, calling only at Yeovil Jct, Axminster and Honiton between Salisbury and Exeter, taking 2 h 45 min for the journey to Exeter Central.

Given the amount of single track, you'd pretty much have to shut the line between Salisbury and Exeter if you wanted to try for a speed record.

The fastest current run between Paddington and Exeter St Davids is 1 h 50 min according to the RPS. I'd imagine the 802s could probably knock a few minutes off given the opportunity.