TRIVIA: The last trains to run on BR with First Class but no toilets

[AY1975]

I wonder what were the last trains to run on BR that had First Class but no toilets and that were used on services that were officially two-class.

In terms of trains that were built with First Class but no toilets, I would guess that the last such trains to run on BR were the Class 116 DMUs, some of which I believe ran with First Class on the Devon and Cornwall branch lines such as the Barnstaple and St Ives branches until about the mid to late 1970s.

I also seem to recall that for a time in the late 1980s and early '90s there was an oddball hybrid set that was formed of a Class 117 Driving Motor Standard and a Class 101 Driving Motor Brake Composite that had been converted from a DMBS, and was used on services such as Paddington-Reading locals (which had First Class in the BR and Thames Trains eras, and under GWR until a few years ago as I recall), the West Ealing-Greenford line and the Windsor & Eton, Marlow and Henley branches. I thought the Thames Valley branches were officially Standard Class only until the Class 165s entered service, though, especially as they were normally worked by "Bubble cars" either singly or coupled to a Class 117 DMS.

More recently there were the two converted 3-CIG EMUs 1497 and 1498 that ran on the Lymington branch from 2005 until 2010. You could count these, as they still had First Class (and the Lymington branch was, and AFAIK still is, officially two-class) but their toilets were locked out of use. I was never sure whether the toilets on those units were just locked or had actually been physically removed and there was just an empty locked room where they had been, though.

 

[30907]

I might be wrong, but memory says that the First Class on class 116/7 was a Trailer Composite Lavatory. (TCoL).

The 3-CIGs without toilets have a long SR/BR(S) pedigree: main line stock converted to push-pull use had their toilets decommissioned; the last was withdrawn about 1965. 4-LAV EMUs lasted a few years longer but at least some first class compartments had toilet access! I would guess that non-corridor Composites on other regions went around that time.

 

[hexagon789]

I might be wrong, but memory says that the First Class on class 116/7 was a Trailer Composite Lavatory. (TCoL).

In 117s yes, in 116s no. No toilets in 116 TCs:


116 TC


117 TCL

The 117s also differed in having 2+1 First Class; the 116s being 2+2.

 

[30907]

In 117s yes, in 116s no. No toilets in 116 TCs:

View attachment 121263
116 TC

View attachment 121264
117 TCL

The 117s also differed in having 2+1 First Class; the 116s being 2+2.

Apologies - they were rare in the London Division, and I don't remember them in the SW.

 

[hexagon789]

Apologies - they were rare in the London Division, and I don't remember them in the SW.

No need to apologise, it's just something I remember that set 116s and 117s apart.

 

[AY1975]

The 3-CIGs without toilets have a long SR/BR(S) pedigree: main line stock converted to push-pull use had their toilets decommissioned; the last was withdrawn about 1965.

Which stock are you referring to? I knew that the SR had some former hauled stock that was converted to EMUs but I thought they were non-corridor compartment stock.

 

[30907]

Which stock are you referring to? I knew that the SR had some former hauled stock that was converted to EMUs but I thought they were non-corridor compartment stock.

The Maunsell sets 600-619 (converted 1959-60), the Ironclad sets 381-385 (around 1950).
Earlier push-pull sets were mostly either non-corridor or Lavatory stock, not sure whether they had them decommissioned.

 

[AY1975]

The Maunsell sets 600-619 (converted 1959-60), the Ironclad sets 381-385 (around 1950).

Did they retain First Class until withdrawn, though? What services were they used on after conversion to push-pull sets, and what locos did they work with?

 

[30907]

Did they retain First Class until withdrawn, though? What services were they used on after conversion to push-pull sets, and what locos did they work with?

Yes they did.

Almost all BR(S) steamworked branches were so worked (though not atvthe same time!), as older sets were withdrawn. I think the full list is:
Allhallows, Maidstone W, Hawkhurst, Westerham, Tunbridge Wells-Oxted/Three Bridges, Hailsham-Eastbourne, Brighton-Horsham, Horsham-Guildford (partly), Brockenhurst-Ringwood-Bournemouth, Lymington, Swanage, Yeovil Town, Seaton. The last 4 had the Ironclad sets initially.

Locos: H and M7 were push-pull fitted so almost entirely them, but towards the end BR or Ivatt tanks. Allhallows had workings involving a C or Q1 0-6-0 in-between freight duties, again not push-pull. No doubt other locos filled in, including IIRC a Light Pacific on the Hailsham shuttle.

 

[Bevan Price]

some of the compartment stock on the ECML / Moorgate services lasted until electrification. Did those sets contain any toilets ?

 

[30907]

some of the compartment stock on the ECML / Moorgate services lasted until electrification. Did those sets contain any toilets ?

The compos all had them, and there were SoLs as well (there's one of each on the Worth Valley which I assume were both Eastern).

 

[AY1975]

Apologies - they were rare in the London Division, and I don't remember them in the SW.

As I recall there were some Class 116s on the Camden Road-North Woolwich, Stratford-Tottenham Hale and Gospel Oak-Barking services for a time in the early to mid 1980s (which they shared with Cravens Class 105s). Those services were all Second Class only by then, though, and AFAIK that was the only regular use of 116s anywhere in Greater London.

I would guess that non-corridor Composites on other regions went around that time.

The compos all had them, and there were SoLs as well (there's one of each on the Worth Valley which I assume were both Eastern).

No, none of the non-corridor compos had toilets, but the SO(L)s did, as you say. There were some non-corridor compartment Firsts (which also didn't have toilets) and some non-gangwayed Mark 1 side corridor composites (which did have toilets): there's one of the latter type at the KWVR too.

Not sure when the last Mark 1 non-corridor compartment Firsts or non-gangwayed side corridor composites were withdrawn. I didn't think the compartment sets on the ECML/Moorgate commuter services contained any toilet vehicles. I thought those services were also latterly Second Class only, though.

There were also the Altrincham line 1500 volt DC units which were all non-corridor compartments and had First Class until withdrawn in 1971. As I recall First Class was abolished on the Merseyrail around the same time. I think some of the Western Region Class 116 DMUs still had First Class until about the mid to late 1970s, though, as I mentioned above.

 

[30907]

No, none of the non-corridor compos had toilets, but the SO(L)s did, as you say. There were some non-corridor compartment Firsts (which also didn't have toilets) and some non-gangwayed Mark 1 side corridor composites (which did have toilets): there's one of the latter type at the KWVR too.

Sorry, brain fade - I meant the non-gangwayed side corridor compos (as you say, one of which is on the KWVR).
I should have remembered there were pure compartment compos, as they included the Exmouth 64ft sets, but I don't remember seeing them on the GN outer suburbans and the inners were 2nd class only.
The Exmouth sets were scrapped almost as soon as the WR took them on, and I would stick with my guess that the 57ft Cs went well before the mid 70s.

PS I hadn't realised any Mk1 suburban Firsts, lav or not, existed!

 

[Beebman]

The non-corridor compos had 3 1st class compartments flanked by 3 2nd class ones on either side.

I've thought of two other EMU examples of 1st class with no toilets - the Class 504 Bury units had a single 1st class compartment with no corridor access as did the BR-type 2-car South Tyneside units which later migrated to the SR in 1963 when the 1st class was declassified. I don't know when the Bury units lost 1st class but it appears to have been before they started to be painted blue.

 

[AY1975]

Yes they did.

Almost all BR(S) steamworked branches were so worked (though not atvthe same time!), as older sets were withdrawn. I think the full list is:
Allhallows, Maidstone W, Hawkhurst, Westerham, Tunbridge Wells-Oxted/Three Bridges, Hailsham-Eastbourne, Brighton-Horsham, Horsham-Guildford (partly), Brockenhurst-Ringwood-Bournemouth, Lymington, Swanage, Yeovil Town, Seaton. The last 4 had the Ironclad sets initially.

What about the Hayling Island branch? Did those sets ever work there?

I've thought of two other EMU examples of 1st class with no toilets - the Class 504 Bury units had a single 1st class compartment with no corridor access as did the BR-type 2-car South Tyneside units which later migrated to the SR in 1963 when the 1st class was declassified. I don't know when the Bury units lost 1st class but it appears to have been before they started to be painted blue.

You are right about the South Tyneside units, but I thought the Class 504 Bury units had two 1st class compartments: one smoking and one non-smoking. I presume the single 1st class compartment on the South Tyneside units was smoking.

 

[Taunton]

Quick whizz through 1976 stock shows :

- The WR (initially) Class 116 units are a prime contender, Tyseley having the largest allocation, with a smaller group at Hamilton. Those remaining on the Western seem to have all been downclassed when they had gangways fitted
- Other non-gangwayed high density units either had toilets or were built second class only.
- The Southern demus, non-gangwayed, all had toilets.
- Merseyside emus, and Bury, had all been downclassed.
- Remaining first class non-gangwayed Mk1 stock at Kings Cross, only a handful of composites left, all had toilets (and a side corridor within the coach).

The WR class 116 from South Wales had spare units transferred to the onetime Southern lines from Exeter in the mid-1960s, and some were put on lengthy runs like Salisbury to Ilfracombe (doubtless, in typical WR fashion, while a Cross-Country unit was doing the Yeovil Junction shuttle). This caused such an upset, eventually getting via MPs to the Minister of Transport and thus down to Paddington HQ (and it probably was any first class travellers to the fore), that the sets one weekend were all reformed with trailers exchanged with Cross-Country units, which had toilets in two of the three cars, so each set had at least one.