Trivia: Towns/Cities with completely separate routes of the same number

[MaidaVale]

What are any examples you can come up with regarding areas with different routes with the exact same number (or very similar, for example a 5 service and a 5A service being run by different operators and going in completely unrelated opposite directions) serving them? They cannot be different time-of-day variations of the same route, they have to be completely unrelated.

One prime example I can think of is Chester, which has 4 route 1s, 2 route 1As and 2 route X1s.

Route 1 has: Arriva (1 Chester - Wrexham), Arriva (1 City Centre - Blacon), Stagecoach (1 City Centre - City Centre via Blacon) and Stagecoach (1 Chester - Liverpool)
Route 1A, admittely a bit of a cheat, has: Arriva (1A City Centre - Blacon), Stagecoach (1A City Centre - City Centre via Blacon)
Route X1 has: Stagecoach (X1 Chester - Liverpool), M&H Coaches (X1 Chester - Ruthin)

There is also a D1, PR1, 100 and three related 11s, although all those don't really count. The reason I've counted the Arriva and Stagecoach Blacon 1/1As as different is that they are operated as completely separate services with Arriva taking the standard route approach whilst Stagecoach operate them as a circular.

 

[PTR 444]

Since the collapse of Yellow Buses this summer, the peculiar situation has arisen in that the Bournemouth-Poole conurbation now has two separate routes 4, 5 and 6 operated by the same company (Morebus). Hopefully the duplication will be resolved soon with the ex-YB routes getting new, unique numbers.

 

[busestrains]

Southampton is one of the worst cities for this as they have seven numbers (1/2/3/6/7/8/9) which are all duplicated with First Hampshire and Go Ahead Bluestar both running routes with these numbers. There are so many numbers available so they really need to change them to avoid this duplication. It is really not good for passengers. If you are just told what number to take and are unaware that both these companies use the same numbers then you can easily end up in the wrong place miles away from where you want to be.

 

[gnolife]

Johnstone has two seperate 1s - one run by Key Coaches which does a local run to the Castle, the other is run by McGills and goes to Kilmacolm
Glasgow has a few duplicates. It has two 38s - one run by First, running Newton Mearns to Glasgow Fort, the other one is run by McGills, and goes to Johnstone via Paisley. It also has two separate X36s - one run by Stagecoach, running to Dalry/Ardrossan, the other is run by McGills Scotland East, and goes to Stirling. It also has two 3s, one run by First, running Drumchapel to Govan, the other is run by McGills, running Hope Street to Neilston.


For a while, I used to go from my school in Altrincham to visit my nan in Accrington, and I'd change from one X41, run by Stagecoach, to a completely separate one, run by Transdev, in Manchester.

 

[MaidaVale]

National Express West Midlands operate quite a few number duplications within the same general area/region and fare scheme, some being opposite sides of the WM Conurbation, others being almost within touching distance. This isn't counting NX Coventry.

Examples of all duplicated routes within the West Midlands County include;

Occurs twice: 14, 16, 18, 19, 24, 25, 28, 35, 41, 46, 47, 49, 50, 61, 82
Occurs tree times: 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 17, 27, 32, 54
Occurs five times: 3, 5, 6
Occurs six times: 4, 11
Occurs eight times: 10

As most don't touch, you may think that its fairly benign, although think of it this way... it's all within a continuous urban area of a similar size as London that's all under one continuous brand and can all be done with one contactless cap. Imagine how much chaos that amount of duplicated numbers would cause in London.

 

[PTR 444]

they really need to change them to avoid this duplication.

What really needs to happen is for Southampton’s (and every other major conurbation for that matter) bus network to be brought into control of a local public transport authority who do all the planning and determine what number each route should have, without any duplication.

 

[busestrains]

National Express West Midlands operate quite a few number duplications within the same general area/region and fare scheme, some being opposite sides of the WM Conurbation, others being almost within touching distance. This isn't counting NX Coventry.

Examples of all duplicated routes within the West Midlands County include;

Occurs twice: 14, 16, 18, 19, 24, 25, 28, 35, 41, 46, 47, 49, 50, 61, 82
Occurs tree times: 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 17, 27, 32, 54
Occurs five times: 3, 5, 6
Occurs six times: 4, 11
Occurs eight times: 10

As most don't touch, you may think that its fairly benign, although think of it this way... it's all within a continuous urban area of a similar size as London that's all under one continous brand and can all be done with one contactless cap. Imagine how much chaos that ammount of duplicated numbers would cause in London.

I am not sure where you are getting that information from. Most of the routes you mention are duplicated much less than that. Some of the numbers you mention are not even duplicated at all.

This is the current duplication (excluding NXC) at NXWM at the moment:

2x route 1
3x route 2
4x route 3
3x route 4
4x route 5
4x route 6
3x route 7
2x route 8
2x route 9
3x route 10
2x route 10A
2x route 11
2x route 11A
2x route 14
2x route 16
2x route 17
2x route 18
2x route 19
2x route 24
2x route 25
2x route 27
2x route 28
3x route 32
2x route 33
2x route 35
2x route 41
2x route 45
2x route 46
2x route 47
2x route 49
2x route 50
2x route 54
2x route 61

So four routes is the maximum that are operated with the same route number.

 

[MaidaVale]

I am not sure where you are getting that information from. Most of the routes you mention are duplicated much less than that. Some of the numbers you mention are not even duplicated at all.

This is the current duplication (excluding NXC) at NXWM at the moment:

I was given the list of duplicates by someone I know although I believe they sourced them from the NXWM "Routes" page on Bustimes. I think the reason that that some have so many are that for instance "10" includes the A duplicates too I believe. Not sure whether S duplicates were included too or not.

 

[Ken H]

Leeds has two 7's
Infirmary St - Primley Park. First Leeds
Leeds - Harrogate via Seacroft, Boston Spa & Wetherby. Transdev Harrogate. They used to share a bus stop.
People cope.

 

[Busaholic]

National Express West Midlands operate quite a few number duplications within the same general area/region and fare scheme, some being opposite sides of the WM Conurbation, others being almost within touching distance. This isn't counting NX Coventry.

Examples of all duplicated routes within the West Midlands County include;

Occurs twice: 14, 16, 18, 19, 24, 25, 28, 35, 41, 46, 47, 49, 50, 61, 82
Occurs tree times: 1, 2, 7, 8, 9, 17, 27, 32, 54
Occurs five times: 3, 5, 6
Occurs six times: 4, 11
Occurs eight times: 10

As most don't touch, you may think that its fairly benign, although think of it this way... it's all within a continuous urban area of a similar size as London that's all under one continous brand and can all be done with one contactless cap. Imagine how much chaos that ammount of duplicated numbers would cause in London.

Are there any numbers in the range 1 to 50 that can't be seen on a bus in the W.M.?

 

[MaidaVale]

Are there any numbers in the range 1 to 50 that can't be seen on a bus in the W.M.?

The only numbers that NXWM don't have are 21, 26, 30 and 38. There is a 21 with NX Coventry and a 30 with diamond. There is a 26A with Diamond but no actual 26, as the only 26 is with Walsall Community Transport. The 38 is done with Kev's Cars and Coaches.

In conclusion, no haha

 

[LowLevel]

Nottingham has the "City" number 9 to Wilford etc run by NCT and the "County" number 9 to Loughborough run by Kinchbus, they share the route and stops around Wilford Hill too so you have two 9s on the Next Bus indicator with totally different routings.

 

[duncanp]

The only numbers that NXWM don't have are 21, 26, 30 and 38. There is a 21 with NX Coventry and a 30 with diamond. There is a 26A with Diamond but no actual 26, as the only 26 is with Walsall Community Transport. The 38 is done with Kev's Cars and Coaches.

In conclusion, no haha

Diamond Buses also run route 21 : Bearwood to Oldbury

 

[Tayway]

In Dundee there's the very frequent (or at least before the current driver shortage) Xplore 22 from Craigowl to Ninewells Hospital, and also the rather less frequent Stagecoach 22 which goes to Kirriemuir via Glamis. There's a short section of shared route on the approach to the City Centre.

 

[GusB]

Please avoid using jargon! Terms like NXWM (National Express West Midlands) and NCT (Nottingham City Transport) need to be defined the first time they're used in any post. Please do not assume that others will know what you're talking about. Thanks

 

[Deerfold]

Nottingham has the "City" number 9 to Wilford etc run by NCT and the "County" number 9 to Loughborough run by Kinchbus, they share the route and stops around Wilford Hill too so you have two 9s on the Next Bus indicator with totally different routings.

Nottingham's a funny one - There's a 1 to Loughborough and a Rainbow 1 to Ripley or Alfreton. A 3 to Clifton and a Three to Sutton and Mansfield. A 4 to Nottingham Trent University Clifton Campus and an i4 to Derby.

Twenty years ago there used to be 2 14s, 18s 32s and 54s, but NCT (Nottingham City transport) no longer have an 18 and Trentbarton no longer have a 14, 32 or 54. The NCT 54 (from Clifton along the Ring Road) crossed the route of the Trentbarton 54 (Clifton to Toton via City Centre) twice.

30 years ago there was widespread duplication of Trent and Barton routes by NCT before they started seriously naming routes (NCT ran far routes, so had plenty which were not duplicated, Barton had a couple of 3 digit routes which were not).

 

[markymark2000]

There is also a D1, PR1, 100 and three related 11s, although all those don't really count. The reason I've counted the Arriva and Stagecoach Blacon 1/1As as different is that they are operated as completely separate services with Arriva taking the standard route approach whilst Stagecoach operate them as a circular.

D1? 3 x 11s?

100 is the tour bus, it doesn't run as a '100'. I think it maybe spent a year using that number but since then, it's just a placeholder number because 'Tour' as used elsewhere makes too much sense for the MCSL office!
11 has only the 11 and 11A in Chester. 11A being a Sunday and Eve variation to the 11.
D1 doesn't exist. We did used to have a DB1 though which linked Blacon - Chester - Higher Kinnerton - Mold (completely separate to the other route 1's)

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Dewsbury has two 205s:
Dewsbury to Mirfield (Longstaff's)
Dewsbury to Pudsey Owlcotes (Arriva)

 

[Cesarcollie]

What really needs to happen is for Southampton’s (and every other major conurbation for that matter) bus network to be brought into control of a local public transport authority who do all the planning and determine what number each route should have, without any duplication.

oh dear. Can’t see that ending well with the imminent drying-up of the money tree

 

[TUC]

What really needs to happen is for Southampton’s (and every other major conurbation for that matter) bus network to be brought into control of a local public transport authority who do all the planning and determine what number each route should have, without any duplication.

Just sorting out bus service numbering doesn't require that level of state control. Giving the traffic commissioners the power to decline a registration for any service that has a duplicate number to an existing service anywhere on its line of route would solve it.

 

[Dai Corner]

This was covered in a now closed thread

Places served by two or more routes with the same number

A reply on the Route Numbers thread got me thinking, what places are served by two different routes with the same number? For clarification, I mean separate routes to different places, rather than two operators competing over the same corridor.

www.railforums.co.uk

Stagecoach and Newport Transport have since stopped using the duplicate numbers I mentioned so there's less confusion for ordinary passengers but also less interest for bus route trivia collectors.

 

[WY Bus Spotter]

Dewsbury has two 205s:
Dewsbury to Mirfield (Longstaff's)
Dewsbury to Pudsey Owlcotes (Arriva)

The latter is now run by TLC after Arriva pulled out.

 

[XAM2175]

In Glasgow there was previously a time where First had a route 10, and also a 10A that was completely different. Of course for those in the know the former was a Greater Glasgow service while the latter was Midland Bluebird, but still far from ideal. Slightly improved at least by First MB changing theirs from 10A/B10/C10 to X10/X10A.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The latter is now run by TLC after Arriva pulled out.

I did see that it had changed the other day, then promptly forgot!

You'd think they might have gone to the trouble of changing the number to remove the duplicate. Though it's the Longstaffs service that's the oddity, being the only public service by an operator that seems to mainly do schools contracts. They have been running their 205 service for as long as I can remember though!

 

[WM Bus]

Diamond Buses also run route 21 : Bearwood to Oldbury

There is the X21 in Birmingham as well. Birmingham to Bartley Green alongside X22 Birmingham to Woodgate. Both take the same route up to University . Then X21 goes via Selly Oak, Weoley Castle. X22 via Quinton Road & California.
X21 is a successor of the old 21 service I believe, has the same registration number PD0001111/39.

In the past there were 2 different X20's and 2 different 56's serving Birmingham City Centre. Both numbers are now extinct in the area. Albeit both were ran by different operators.

National Express West Midlands operate quite a few number duplications within the same general area/region and fare scheme, some being opposite sides of the WM Conurbation, others being almost within touching distance. This isn't counting NX Coventry.
Occurs six times: 4, 11

If you count variants also depends whether or not you count the 11A/C/S as being effectively being the same route.
A is for Anti-clockwise side, C is for Clockwise side, S is for Schooldays journey.
The other 3 would be 11 Wolverhampton - Underhill & 11/11A Walsall - Merry Hill.

 

[SSmith2009]

Leicester currently has quite a few services using the same number

14 operated by arriva - City Centre to Tatlow Road (ceases on 22/10/22)
14 operated by first - City Centre to Ryder Road

20 operated by Centrebus - City Centre to Blackmore Drive via Royal Infirmary
20 operated by Robert's - City Centre to Blackmore Drive via West Bridge (Sunday only service)

21 operated by First - City Centre to Thurmaston
21 operated by Robert's- City Centre to St Matthew's Estate (Sunday only service)

26 operated by Arriva - Leicester to Coalville
26 operated by First - City Centre, Beaumont Leys and Mowmacre Hill circular service

48 operated by arriva - Wigston/South Wigston circular service
48(L) operated by Stagecoach - Leicester to Nuneaton via Hinckley

 

[adrock1976]

The only numbers that NXWM don't have are 21, 26, 30 and 38. There is a 21 with NX Coventry and a 30 with diamond. There is a 26A with Diamond but no actual 26, as the only 26 is with Walsall Community Transport. The 38 is done with Kev's Cars and Coaches.

In conclusion, no haha

It has radically changed sine I was residing in the West Midlands a long time ago.

The 21 was Birmingham Colmore Row - Bangham Pit via Five Ways, Harborne Green Man, QE Hospital, Selly Oak, Weoley Castle, and Genners Lane (Quinton Garage, then transferred to Yardley Wood when Quinton closed).

The 26 was Birmingham - Bromford Bridge via Aston Uni, Saltley Viaduct, Washwood Heath Rd, and Drews Lane (Washwood Heath garage).

The 38 was Acocks Green - Knowle or Hockley Heath (may have been the 39 in the evening) via Woodcock Lane North, Olton Station, Sharmans Cross, Solihull Station and Town Centre, and A41 to Knowle/Dorridge. Some extensions to Hockley Heath (Acocks Green garage).

 

[Typhoon]

If you count variants also depends whether or not you count the 11A/C/S as being effectively being the same route.
A is for Anti-clockwise side, C is for Clockwise side, S is for Schooldays journey.
The other 3 would be 11 Wolverhampton - Underhill & 11/11A Walsall - Merry Hill.

This is the reason for the debate and seeming contradiction upthread.

I can get eight routes that could be counted as 10 (Woodgate Valley North and Brownhills West being the easiest; 10S Ridgacre - Selly Oak; 10A & 10C - Oldswinford circulars - same route different directions; 10, 10A, 10B - Perton with the suffixes indicating extensions). Only three are called route 10. Whether you count the others as different or route '10' is not down to me.

I would also add that the thread description is towns/ cities. There is no way that Birmingham, Stourbridge, Walsall, Wolverhampton are part of the same city!

 

[Cesarcollie]

Just sorting out bus service numbering doesn't require that level of state control. Giving the traffic commissioners the power to decline a registration for any service that has a duplicate number to an existing service anywhere on its line of route would solve it.

No need even for that. The aim of remov duplicate numbers can be included in an Enhanced Partnership. In Essex at least it has been (on a District basis).

 

[miklcct]

Southampton is one of the worst cities for this as they have seven numbers (1/2/3/6/7/8/9) which are all duplicated with First Hampshire and Go Ahead Bluestar both running routes with these numbers. There are so many numbers available so they really need to change them to avoid this duplication. It is really not good for passengers. If you are just told what number to take and are unaware that both these companies use the same numbers then you can easily end up in the wrong place miles away from where you want to be.

I can imagine the confusion if a Salisbury Reds bus is operated on a Bluestar route which serves the same place as the City Red route of the same number.