TRIVIA - Unfulfilled Beeching cuts you would've made

[LOL The Irony]

Does the answer depend on whether you view the question with Beeching era eyes or modern eyes? i.e. taking account of subsequent developments or not?

Whichever you want was my intention.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You have a time machine to take you back to the 1960's, what are some unfulfilled Beeching cuts you would've made? Be it for practical or selfish reasons, say which cuts that were left on the cutting room floor you would go ahead with. For instance, Keeping Blackpool Central and closing North.

My (purely selfish) pick would be closing the route between Chester and Warrington.

Why? It's well used.

If I was going to close anything round there it'd be Ellesmere Port to Helsby, but I don't know if that was on the list, was it?

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 22 Dec 2021 ==

Berney Arms?

It's a lovely quirk, but removing it would get rid of an entire section of route so the saving would be considerable.

 

[LOL The Irony]

Why? It's well used.

I answer it in the post you quoted before even mentioning what line I would close.

 

[JonathanH]

There was a private school at Sanderstead, but I doubt it’s clientele would have come from the Mid Kent line.

Really? The area round New Beckenham is relatively 'leafy'. Where does the clientele for the plethora of private schools south of Croydon come from?

Berney Arms?

It's a lovely quirk, but removing it would get rid of an entire section of route so the saving would be considerable.

The line via Berney Arms is arguably extant for reasons other than the station on the route. Double track via Acle might allow its removal but the link from Great Yarmouth to Reedham would be lost also. The line exists to give more capacity between Norwich and Great Yarmouth as much as anything.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I answer it in the post you quoted before even mentioning what line I would close.

You said selfish, but you haven't really explained why the closure would benefit you?

 

[LOL The Irony]

You said selfish, but you haven't really explained why the closure would benefit you?

Keep up at the back!

Does it benefit you in any way for that line to be closed - I guess it would send all of the Manchester to North Wales services via Altrincham instead, which might be useful if you live on that line?

Bingo. I fully agree with and understand it not closing, but come on.

It would also send more than that my way

 

[Cricketer8for9]

The clientele for Croydon area private schools is currently well spread, with significant train travel from Clapham Jct and from points south, eg Oxted. I know New Beckenham is leafy, my best guess is that Dulwich, Alleyn’s and James Alleyn’s Girls’ School were the schools of choice in those days.

 

[30907]

The clientele for Croydon area private schools is currently well spread, with significant train travel from Clapham Jct and from points south, eg Oxted. I know New Beckenham is leafy, my best guess is that Dulwich, Alleyn’s and James Alleyn’s Girls’ School were the schools of choice in those days.

Correct, of which Dulwich took the most (even getting a special stop on an Orpington-Victoria "fast" in the 1967 timetable). Plus St Dunstan's, St Olave's... - all taking significant numbers of local authority funded pupils into the 70s BTW.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

Correct, of which Dulwich took the most (even getting a special stop on an Orpington-Victoria "fast" in the 1967 timetable). Plus St Dunstan's, St Olave's... - all taking significant numbers of local authority funded pupils into the 70s BTW.

== Doublepost prevention - post automatically merged: 23 Dec 2021 ==

Thanks. My “Met Kent” school knowledge is less good than yours.

 

[tbtc]

I think one option at one point was truncating the Hope Valley line and keeping Woodhead, rather than the other way round. I'd probably have done that.

Agreed - based on the information at the time, Hope Valley looked like the weakest of the three - obviously BR subsequently closed the Woodhead line when the coal traffic dwindled (and Woodhead required the complications of a separate station in Sheffield) - I guess that keeping Hope Valley open allowed BR to also close the Bakewell line, which is why they chose to do so, but the Good Doctor wanted to keep Woodhead and close Hope Valley, and I think he was probably right and BR wrong

(obviously all things that Beeching closed were because he was part of a wicked conspiracy with Marples whilst all of the things that BR closed weren't their fault but all because the Big Bad Government forced them to and BR were entirely blameless etc etc)

 

[mailbyrail]

If I was going to close anything round there it'd be Ellesmere Port to Helsby, but I don't know if that was on the list, was it?

I remember the closure notice was posted to close Stanlow & Thornton to Helsby as well as Spital station - I lived in Bromborough at the time and travelled to Port Sunlight. Spital seemed like a basket case in those days with almost no passengers at any time of the day or week.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed - based on the information at the time, Hope Valley looked like the weakest of the three - obviously BR subsequently closed the Woodhead line when the coal traffic dwindled (and Woodhead required the complications of a separate station in Sheffield) - I guess that keeping Hope Valley open allowed BR to also close the Bakewell line, which is why they chose to do so, but the Good Doctor wanted to keep Woodhead and close Hope Valley, and I think he was probably right and BR wrong

(obviously all things that Beeching closed were because he was part of a wicked conspiracy with Marples whilst all of the things that BR closed weren't their fault but all because the Big Bad Government forced them to and BR were entirely blameless etc etc)

The Good Doctor was not some separate entity from BR, he was Chairman at the time (although he was part of a wicked bad policy conspiracy with Marples)

Later management regimes of BR were IMO correct to choose (when forced) to keep the Hope over Woodhead as it had better intermediate passenger potential and it went to the better connected station in Sheffield.

 

[Grumpy]

I would have kept Wennington-Green Ayre-Lancaster Castle and shut Wennington-Carnforth. Thus accelerating the service from Yorkshire to Lancaster/Morecambe by approx 15 minutes.

 

[43096]

Later management regimes of BR were IMO correct to choose (when forced) to keep the Hope over Woodhead as it had better intermediate passenger potential and it went to the better connected station in Sheffield.

The Hope valley line also has sources of bulk/trainload freight at Hope cement works and the Peak Forest quarry traffic which Woodhead didn’t.

 

[172007]

Stourbridge Jct to Stourbridge Town. Inefficiently too short.
Possiblly Bromsgrove to Droitwich. Worcester has a perfectly good line via Kidderminster from Birmingham.

 

[tbtc]

The Good Doctor was not some separate entity from BR, he was Chairman at the time (although he was part of a wicked bad policy conspiracy with Marples)

Later management regimes of BR were IMO correct to choose (when forced) to keep the Hope over Woodhead as it had better intermediate passenger potential and it went to the better connected station in Sheffield.

I appreciate that he was the Chairman - I'm just highlighting the usual double standards whereby his actions were seen as entirely down to him/Marples (i.e. if it wasn't for this one baddie then we'd still have thousands of quaint little branch lines) whereas every cut made under BR is seen as an unavoidable consequence of the Government not giving them enough money, "BR didn't want to close anything but those wicked politicians forced them to" (especially when used with "in order to fatten up BR for privatisation", which absolved the nationalised railway further, by blaming privatisation for the fact that the nationalised railway continued to close lines/stations pretty much every year between Beeching and privatisation)

e.g. "it may have looked like BR wanted to close the Settle & Carlisle between 1984 and 1989 but this wasn't BR's fault, it was because the nasty Tories were forcing their hand" whereas "BR were amazing because they were doing all of these positive things in the 1980s with InterCity/ Network South East etc" (you need the cognitive dissonance to separate all of the "pros" from the "cons")

 

[yorksrob]

I appreciate that he was the Chairman - I'm just highlighting the usual double standards whereby his actions were seen as entirely down to him/Marples (i.e. if it wasn't for this one baddie then we'd still have thousands of quaint little branch lines) whereas every cut made under BR is seen as an unavoidable consequence of the Government not giving them enough money, "BR didn't want to close anything but those wicked politicians forced them to" (especially when used with "in order to fatten up BR for privatisation", which absolved the nationalised railway further, by blaming privatisation for the fact that the nationalised railway continued to close lines/stations pretty much every year between Beeching and privatisation)

e.g. "it may have looked like BR wanted to close the Settle & Carlisle between 1984 and 1989 but this wasn't BR's fault, it was because the nasty Tories were forcing their hand" whereas "BR were amazing because they were doing all of these positive things in the 1980s with InterCity/ Network South East etc" (you need the cognitive dissonance to separate all of the "pros" from the "cons")

That's a fair point. Whilst I'm no fan of Dr Beeching, I do think that one has to look at the closure programme as a whole.

That said, I think that if Sectorised BR had attempted to carry out a large closure programme, it wouldn't be held in anywhere near as high esteem as it is.

 

[30907]

I would have kept Wennington-Green Ayre-Lancaster Castle and shut Wennington-Carnforth. Thus accelerating the service from Yorkshire to Lancaster/Morecambe by approx 15 minutes.

Yes, it seems logical now, but
1. Morecambe not Lancaster was the more important destination, so back then there was logic to going directly there.
2. What would you have done with the freight traffic?

 

[61653 HTAFC]

The Clayton West branch off the Penistone Line survived perhaps longer than necessary, unless there was pit (workers) traffic? It only branched from the Huddersfield direction and ran two stops, but survived until the mid-1980s when, I think, WYPTA made it (and singling) conditional on future support for the route in West Yorkshire.

Most pit workers lived in the area so didn't need to commute. The passenger services survived until January 1983 (I suppose that technically is the "mid-1980s") due to there being no secondary school in the area, meaning local kids had to travel to Honley. Shelley High School opened in the late 1970s, though not all families immediately transferred their kids to the new place.
Once the pit closed and the operating burden of the line fell solely on the infrequent passenger services, WYPTE refused to support the line (which had always been single, though with several structures built to accommodate double track).

 

[YorksLad12]

Most pit workers lived in the area so didn't need to commute. The passenger services survived until January 1983 (I suppose that technically is the "mid-1980s") due to there being no secondary school in the area, meaning local kids had to travel to Honley. Shelley High School opened in the late 1970s, though not all families immediately transferred their kids to the new place.
Once the pit closed and the operating burden of the line fell solely on the infrequent passenger services, WYPTE refused to support the line (which had always been single, though with several structures built to accommodate double track).

Thanks - it's those hyperlocal things such as pits and schools that explain why services still run at odd times to odd places (buses included). I did mean singling the rest of the Penistone Line route though, I just expressed myself poorly. Going from memory, South Yorkshire still wanted to run the old route via Deepcar and had to be persuaded to accept the longer route via Barnsley once everything was agreed and funded.

 

[randyrippley]

I would have kept Wennington-Green Ayre-Lancaster Castle and shut Wennington-Carnforth. Thus accelerating the service from Yorkshire to Lancaster/Morecambe by approx 15 minutes.

Would never have happened: the County Council wanted Greyhound bridge for a road.
Local tradition has it that the report was changed prior to publication through the application of planning grease

 

[Grumpy]

Yes, it seems logical now, but
1. Morecambe not Lancaster was the more important destination, so back then there was logic to going directly there.
2. What would you have done with the freight traffic?

1. Not sure about this. Surely Morecambe only relatively important for a few summer weekends' holiday traffic which the Doctor identified as uneconomic
2. Send the freight via the Calder Valley which I recall the Doctor had down for development. With hindsight might also shut Settle junction-Lancaster and send the passenger trains by the Calder Valley where the intermediate stations would generate more traffic than the likes of Wennington

 

[randyrippley]

Yes, it seems logical now, but
1. Morecambe not Lancaster was the more important destination, so back then there was logic to going directly there.
2. What would you have done with the freight traffic?

Freight traffic seems to have been mainly for the Trimpell works at Heysham, so not a problem.
Coal/coke for Barrow came from the north anyway, via Stainmore

 

[daodao]

S&C

 

[Class800]

It's interesting looking back that there were quite a lot of proposed Beeching closures that didn't happen.

St Erth to St Ives - it has a good bus service, was this reprieve necessary? Could have worked on integrated through tickets - although always challenging
The Shotts line - one of the slower routes between Edinburgh and Glasgow - is local traffic sufficient to justify the reprieve?
The Island Line - ran as buses for quite a long time last year, could it have been closed and integrated into the Isle of Wight bus system?

 

[davetheguard]

St Erth to St Ives - it has a good bus service, was this reprieve necessary? Could have worked on integrated through tickets - although always challenging

I invite you to see for yourself what traffic conditions are like in St. Ives in summer. The town is awash in a sea of cars with the narrow streets completely clogged.

The branch from St. Erth to St. Ives was -pre Covid anyway- carrying more passengers than ever before as a result of this traffic congestion; much easier (and more fun!) to park at St. Erth and ride in on the very scenic branch line.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Thanks - it's those hyperlocal things such as pits and schools that explain why services still run at odd times to odd places (buses included). I did mean singling the rest of the Penistone Line route though, I just expressed myself poorly. Going from memory, South Yorkshire still wanted to run the old route via Deepcar and had to be persuaded to accept the longer route via Barnsley once everything was agreed and funded.

The singling of Huddersfield to Clayton West Junction (end of the current passing loop) took place throughout the mid to late 1980s. The service along the line was seldom more than 1tph, so the double track wasn't really needed once the coal traffic had ended. Singling also improved clearances in several locations, allowing modest improvements in speed.

 

[BeijingDave]

You have a time machine to take you back to the 1960's, what are some unfulfilled Beeching cuts you would've made? Be it for practical or selfish reasons, say which cuts that were left on the cutting room floor you would go ahead with. For instance, Keeping Blackpool Central and closing North.

My (purely selfish) pick would be closing the route between Chester and Warrington.

But Chester to Warrington was never up for closure, it was identified by Beeching as a key route. Whereas the North Wales coast line was not. So you may not have had the benefit of North Wales access you hoped for (being on the Altrincham route) anyway.

Bit far fetched this one I think. Chester is the county town; Warrington the biggest town in Cheshire. Plenty of people moving between those two places every day, plus commuters to the two from Runcorn East, Frodsham and Helsby. Two 3-car trains in rush hour (when I used to do that commute), both packed. Access to the Lake District and Scotland from Chester for railway users is normally via Warrington too.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

(obviously all things that Beeching closed were because he was part of a wicked conspiracy with Marples whilst all of the things that BR closed weren't their fault but all because the Big Bad Government forced them to and BR were entirely blameless etc etc)

I'm not sure this is relevant but, having lived through the period, I'll append it anyway. Richard Marsh, son of a railwayman, ex MP for Greenwich, ex cabinet minister in Harold Wilson's government (including nationalising the steel industry), when he became Chairman of BR was frequently accused by conspiracy theorists of having an agenda to close railways. He always dismissed this as nonsense but, being an ex politician, he knew better than to blame the Government and the civil servants. He used to point out that railwaymen hated closing lines. I recall him saying on television that "railwaymen bleed whenever a line closes".

 

[davetheguard]

I'm not sure this is relevant but, having lived through the period, I'll append it anyway. Richard Marsh, son of a railwayman, ex MP for Greenwich, ex cabinet minister in Harold Wilson's government (including nationalising the steel industry), when he became Chairman of BR was frequently accused by conspiracy theorists of having an agenda to close railways. He always dismissed this as nonsense but, being an ex politician, he knew better than to blame the Government and the civil servants. He used to point out that railwaymen hated closing lines. I recall him saying on television that "railwaymen bleed whenever a line closes".

He certainly closed the Waverley route when a minister. He later said he realised it was a mistake, but blamed bad advice from civil servants.