Trump’s obsession with hydroxychloroquine as a treatment for Covid-19

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hooverboy

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Obviously wishing him the best - Nobody deserves this.

I do think some of the messaging yesterday was poor - Going into hospital late on a Sunday night can never be "routine" and then playing it down throughout the day makes the shock of the 8pm announcement more profound.

I have every confidence he will get through this and he has the best medical attention in the world (but only if we keep the Orange man's doctors away, with the hydroxychloroquine, away from him).
I doubt it.

Trump would very much like "the deal"

The script would go something like this:
  • Boris is on deaths door
  • Trump's medical mates develop and offer a miracle cure and bring him back from the abyss
  • Boris makes a heroes return to the big stage, and in eternal gratitude signs absolutely monstrous deal with uncle Sam's big big pharmaceutical company, and Boris says a big "no deal" to EU, "no more negotiations, we know who our true friends are now" sort of thing.
It's very personal when they have just saved your life.
 
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hooverboy

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Hydroxychloroquine, if it does work, is a commodity medication well out of patent...
indeed.

it could be a quick and easy solution,and it is already cleared as safe by various national health executives, so no need to go through much in the way of human trials-the side effects are already known.
 

Meerkat

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indeed.

it could be a quick and easy solution,and it is already cleared as safe by various national health executives, so no need to go through much in the way of human trials-the side effects are already known.
Isn’t the issue that the side effects, whilst known, aren’t very nice?
 

Bletchleyite

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Isn’t the issue that the side effects, whilst known, aren’t very nice?
The issue is that it might not work, primarily. The side effects are unpleasant, but provided they don't kill the person being treated they are going to be preferable to a 50% chance of dying of coronavirus (once on a ventilator). It's still used as an anti-malarial, if it was that bad it wouldn't be.
 

Wivenswold

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I'd suggest we follow the money with Hydroxychloroquine and Trump. He's already tried to take a slice of the ventilator profits via Jarvanka and their ever-growing web of businesses connected to the White House. It's likely he's done the same with the medication orders, hence his obsession.

He's a con-man but not a very clever one.
 

Meerkat

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I'd suggest we follow the money with Hydroxychloroquine and Trump. He's already tried to take a slice of the ventilator profits via Jarvanka and their ever-growing web of businesses connected to the White House. It's likely he's done the same with the medication orders, hence his obsession.

He's a con-man but not a very clever one.
He’s a rich bloke. It’s really not surprising if he has investments in pharmaceutical companies, oil companies, Defence companies etc etc.
One senior US medical bod is quoting the drug thing as perfectly understandable as a way of trying to have hope.
 

edwin_m

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The issue is that it might not work, primarily. The side effects are unpleasant, but provided they don't kill the person being treated they are going to be preferable to a 50% chance of dying of coronavirus (once on a ventilator). It's still used as an anti-malarial, if it was that bad it wouldn't be.
Are the side-effects ever serious enough to require medical attention? If so then it's dangerous, as medics who should be dealing with the virus will be dealing with this instead. Particularly as the sort of people naïve enough to believe anything Trump says are probably also naïve enough to take a huge dose of the stuff even if they aren't showing any symptoms.

I don't actually think Trump has any financial fingers in this particular pie, otherwise he'd be quoting the brand name of whatever company rather than the generic name. He's primarily hoping for a miracle cure that can restore economic prosperity quickly, which might secure is re-election particularly if he was seen to be ahead of the game in advocating something that turned out to be effective.
 

Bantamzen

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Are the side-effects ever serious enough to require medical attention? If so then it's dangerous, as medics who should be dealing with the virus will be dealing with this instead. Particularly as the sort of people naïve enough to believe anything Trump says are probably also naïve enough to take a huge dose of the stuff even if they aren't showing any symptoms.
There are lots, I've linked them below:

https://www.drugs.com/sfx/hydroxychloroquine-side-effects.html

Along with its needed effects, hydroxychloroquine may cause some unwanted effects. Although not all of these side effects may occur, if they do occur they may need medical attention.


Check with your doctor immediately if any of the following side effects occur while taking hydroxychloroquine:

Incidence not known

  • Blistering, peeling, loosening of the skin
  • blurred vision or other vision changes
  • chest discomfort, pain, or tightness
  • cough or hoarseness
  • dark urine
  • decreased urination
  • defective color vision
  • diarrhea
  • difficulty breathing
  • difficulty seeing at night
  • dizziness or fainting
  • fast, pounding, uneven heartbeat
  • feeling that others are watching you or controlling your behavior
  • feeling that others can hear your thoughts
  • feeling, seeing, or hearing things that are not there
  • fever with or without chills
  • general feeling of tiredness or weakness
  • headache
  • inability to move the eyes
  • increased blinking or spasms of the eyelid
  • joint or muscle pain
  • large, hive-like swelling on the face, eyelids, lips, tongue, throat, hands, legs, feet, and sex organs
  • loss of hearing
  • lower back or side pain
  • noisy breathing
  • painful or difficult urination
  • red irritated eyes
  • red skin lesions, often with a purple center
  • severe mood or mental changes
  • sore throat sores, ulcers, or white spots on the lips or in the mouth
  • sticking out of the tongue
  • stomach pain
  • swelling of the feet or lower legs
  • swollen or painful glands
  • trouble with breathing, speaking, or swallowing
  • uncontrolled twisting movements of the neck, trunk, arms, or legs
  • unusual behavior
  • unusual bleeding or bruising
  • unusual facial expressions
  • unusual tiredness or weakness
  • yellow eyes or skin
Symptoms of overdose

  • Drowsiness
  • dry mouth
  • increased thirst
  • loss of appetite
  • mood changes
  • no pulse or blood pressure
  • numbness or tingling in the hands, feet, or lips
  • unconsciousness

Some side effects of hydroxychloroquine may occur that usually do not need medical attention. These side effects may go away during treatment as your body adjusts to the medicine. Also, your health care professional may be able to tell you about ways to prevent or reduce some of these side effects. Check with your health care professional if any of the following side effects continue or are bothersome or if you have any questions about them:

Incidence not known

  • Continuing ringing or buzzing or other unexplained noise in the ears
  • feeling of constant movement of self or surroundings
  • irritability
  • nausea
  • nervousness
  • nightmares
  • sensation of spinning
  • shakiness and unsteady walk
  • uncontrolled eye movements
  • unsteadiness, trembling, or other problems with muscle control or coordination
  • vomiting
If you've ever seen any pharmaceutical adverts in the US, this reads like the list of things they don't want you to sue them for at the end of such ads that sometimes last longer than the ad themselves.

I don't actually think Trump has any financial fingers in this particular pie, otherwise he'd be quoting the brand name of whatever company rather than the generic name. He's primarily hoping for a miracle cure that can restore economic prosperity quickly, which might secure is re-election particularly if he was seen to be ahead of the game in advocating something that turned out to be effective.
I'm pretty certain someone close to him will remind him of his involvement in the branded version, so that will be of almost equal importance to him as fulfilling his prophecy that the virus will disappear this month.

And at the risk of being really, really cynical, it would not entirely surprise me if it did "disappear" at the end of the month in the US...
 

Bletchleyite

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Are the side-effects ever serious enough to require medical attention? If so then it's dangerous, as medics who should be dealing with the virus will be dealing with this instead.
That is an incredibly oversimplistic view and is not how such things are dealt with (if it was we wouldn't have half the drugs in use that we presently do). If, overall, the effect is to reduce the demand on intensive care beds (other, obviously, than by causing death), then it is worthy of consideration.
 

Darandio

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If you've ever seen any pharmaceutical adverts in the US, this reads like the list of things they don't want you to sue them for at the end of such ads that sometimes last longer than the ad themselves.
It's possibly the wrong choice of word, but I do find the US pharmaceutical ads hilarious. Obviously with the compensation culture over there it's deemed necessary and a leaflet provided with the medication isn't enough for them but a typical 3 minute advert may have 30 seconds describing a wonder drug for a fairly common condition followed by 2 minutes 30 seconds outlining a range of conditions you might experience if you take it, all far far worse than the minor condition you currently have.
 

Bantamzen

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It's possibly the wrong choice of word, but I do find the US pharmaceutical ads hilarious. Obviously with the compensation culture over there it's deemed necessary and a leaflet provided with the medication isn't enough for them but a typical 3 minute advert may have 30 seconds describing a wonder drug for a fairly common condition followed by 2 minutes 30 seconds outlining a range of conditions you might experience if you take it, all far far worse than the minor condition you currently have.
No you are completely correct. The first time I was in the US and chanced upon the ads on TV in the hotel room, I was flabbergasted. For those that aren't familiar with them, they go something like this:

"Got a pain, a lump, bump, are you feeling tired, feeling fed up, feeling like you ought to be feeling tired and fed up, do you have a cough, sneeze, itch, weird skin blemish, do you have a disease, a cancer, or other fatal illness. Then ask your choice of (private) medical practitioner for <insert name of "miracle" drug>, you won't be sorry (subject to credit approval and / or confirmation your medical plan has drained you of enough money to pay for this stuff)."

<Cue fast speaking narration with quick moving subtitles>

"May cause nausea, sickness, pain in the left arm, pain in the right arm, dizziness, loss of cognitive functions, external bleeding, internal bleeding, heart palpitations, heart failure, liver problems, liver failure, limbs to fall off, limbs to fall off and burst into flames, death, war in a far off country..." *

*Please note this is a bit a humour, but look the ads up for yourselves. They will probably be available on media such as YouTube.
 

Bayum

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Are the side-effects ever serious enough to require medical attention? If so then it's dangerous, as medics who should be dealing with the virus will be dealing with this instead. Particularly as the sort of people naïve enough to believe anything Trump says are probably also naïve enough to take a huge dose of the stuff even if they aren't showing any symptoms.

I don't actually think Trump has any financial fingers in this particular pie, otherwise he'd be quoting the brand name of whatever company rather than the generic name. He's primarily hoping for a miracle cure that can restore economic prosperity quickly, which might secure is re-election particularly if he was seen to be ahead of the game in advocating something that turned out to be effective.
Hydroxychloroquine can be really nasty. People can have sensitivity to chloroquine that requires medical attention - not an allergy per sé, it can cause chloroquine retinopathy because of problems in either the cornea or macular. You can develop toxic cardiomyopathy which results in irreversible heart damage. Systolic or diastolic heart failure have been known. When used alongside certain drugs, there is the potential for severe liver problems, and there is also an issue where the drug can induce ST segment elevation on an ECG. This causes problems because this should be the phase where the myocardium cells should have gone through polarise and depolarisation.
 

edwin_m

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That is an incredibly oversimplistic view and is not how such things are dealt with (if it was we wouldn't have half the drugs in use that we presently do). If, overall, the effect is to reduce the demand on intensive care beds (other, obviously, than by causing death), then it is worthy of consideration.
Obviously it's a question of degree, but if there's a significant risk of side-effects then people dosing themselves up with some quack remedy that may deny medical attention to others seems to me just as antisocial as doing any of the other things that we're currently forbidden. Fair enough if someone decides to give it to patients who will almost certainly die otherwise, but that wasn't what I was referring to.

Hydroxychloroquine can be really nasty. People can have sensitivity to chloroquine that requires medical attention - not an allergy per sé, it can cause chloroquine retinopathy because of problems in either the cornea or macular. You can develop toxic cardiomyopathy which results in irreversible heart damage. Systolic or diastolic heart failure have been known. When used alongside certain drugs, there is the potential for severe liver problems, and there is also an issue where the drug can induce ST segment elevation on an ECG. This causes problems because this should be the phase where the myocardium cells should have gone through polarise and depolarisation.
And from this I think it's fair to say there's a significant risk of side-effects.
 

Typhoon

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A moderately amusing take on Trump and Coronavirus can be found at
, Hydroxychloroquine kicks in at 14:26. Trump is probably funnier than Meyers. 'What have you got to lose?' - from #18 an awful lot!
 

SteveP29

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If you've ever seen any pharmaceutical adverts in the US, this reads like the list of things they don't want you to sue them for at the end of such ads that sometimes last longer than the ad themselves.
It's possibly the wrong choice of word, but I do find the US pharmaceutical ads hilarious. Obviously with the compensation culture over there it's deemed necessary and a leaflet provided with the medication isn't enough for them but a typical 3 minute advert may have 30 seconds describing a wonder drug for a fairly common condition followed by 2 minutes 30 seconds outlining a range of conditions you might experience if you take it, all far far worse than the minor condition you currently have.
No you are completely correct. The first time I was in the US and chanced upon the ads on TV in the hotel room, I was flabbergasted. For those that aren't familiar with them, they go something like this:

"Got a pain, a lump, bump, are you feeling tired, feeling fed up, feeling like you ought to be feeling tired and fed up, do you have a cough, sneeze, itch, weird skin blemish, do you have a disease, a cancer, or other fatal illness. Then ask your choice of (private) medical practitioner for <insert name of "miracle" drug>, you won't be sorry (subject to credit approval and / or confirmation your medical plan has drained you of enough money to pay for this stuff)."

<Cue fast speaking narration with quick moving subtitles>

"May cause nausea, sickness, pain in the left arm, pain in the right arm, dizziness, loss of cognitive functions, external bleeding, internal bleeding, heart palpitations, heart failure, liver problems, liver failure, limbs to fall off, limbs to fall off and burst into flames, death, war in a far off country..." *

*Please note this is a bit a humour, but look the ads up for yourselves. They will probably be available on media such as YouTube.
I noticed that too when I was there, the only ads were for pharmaceuticals, insurance, litigation or cars, not for tourist attractions, supermarkets, confectionery or anything.
And there was certainly not a millimetre of humour in any of them.

The ads have to be so long to as @Bantamzen and @Darandio says, they are trying to reduce the chances of being sued.
My own opinion is that, since its so expensive to see a doctor (my Dad forgot his cholesterol tablets when we went, a friend who lives over there said to him it'd cost him $100 just to get through the door), people self diagnose and medicate, they also buy in bulk from the likes of Walmart as larger quantities are cheaper. Its just mental.
I have IBS and can only buy Loperamide in packs of 6, (cheapest is in Tesco and Sainsbury's, £1.15), I bought a bottle of 200 in Walmart
Also Ibuprofen, no more than 32 here, again, in Walmart, bottle of 100

Is it any wonder there's an epidemic of addiction to painkillers
As a side note, in a Publix supermarket on our first night there, there was a whole aisle dedicated to different flavours of maple syrup, a good 50 feet long this aisle was, I asked why there was so much, my Dad said, because Americans are addicted to sugar
So it seems that the more you produce and put on shelves, the more they'll take and the rates of addiction increase.
 

Bletchleyite

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Is it any wonder there's an epidemic of addiction to painkillers
And I genuinely heard someone say "there weren't any decent branded painkillers, I had to buy Tesco ibuprofen".

Er, you know it's exactly the same, right? :D

"Anadin" and "Nurofen" are nothing but a stupidity tax.

And as for "paracetamol and caffeine", take a normal one and have a cup of tea! :)
 
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Bletchleyite

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As a side note, in a Publix supermarket on our first night there, there was a whole aisle dedicated to different flavours of maple syrup, a good 50 feet long this aisle was, I asked why there was so much, my Dad said, because Americans are addicted to sugar
You need to go to a major supermarket in Scotland just to witness the "wall of orange" of an entire aisle of Irn Bru! :)
 

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GRALISTAIR

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No you are completely correct. The first time I was in the US and chanced upon the ads on TV in the hotel room, I was flabbergasted. For those that aren't familiar with them, they go something like this:

"Got a pain, a lump, bump, are you feeling tired, feeling fed up, feeling like you ought to be feeling tired and fed up, do you have a cough, sneeze, itch, weird skin blemish, do you have a disease, a cancer, or other fatal illness. Then ask your choice of (private) medical practitioner for <insert name of "miracle" drug>, you won't be sorry (subject to credit approval and / or confirmation your medical plan has drained you of enough money to pay for this stuff)."

<Cue fast speaking narration with quick moving subtitles>

"May cause nausea, sickness, pain in the left arm, pain in the right arm, dizziness, loss of cognitive functions, external bleeding, internal bleeding, heart palpitations, heart failure, liver problems, liver failure, limbs to fall off, limbs to fall off and burst into flames, death, war in a far off country..." *

*Please note this is a bit a humour, but look the ads up for yourselves. They will probably be available on media such as YouTube.
I live in the USA. I confirm you are NOT exaggerating. My wife a down to earth girl from Preston, Lancashire really gets amused and takes the mick when these adverts come on. She has lived in the USA for 16 years.
 

Bletchleyite

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I live in the USA. I confirm you are NOT exaggerating. My wife a down to earth girl from Preston, Lancashire really gets amused and takes the mick when these adverts come on. She has lived in the USA for 16 years.
The Germans are quite big on drug advertising too, though more of OTC type stuff. They're a nation of hypochondriacs with an Apotheke (pharmacy) on near enough every street corner.

So much so that 9 months living there means I remember the tagline you get at the end of the adverts by heart - "Zu Risiken und Nebenwirkungen lesen Sie die Packungsbeilage oder fragen Sie Ihren Arzt oder Apotheker"[1] - almost as good as the railway "3 Ss"[2] :)

[1] "For risks and side effects read the [leaflet] enclosed in the packet or ask your doctor or pharmacist".
[2] Not, obviously, the same 3 as the "3 Ss of the morning" :D
 

edwin_m

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I remember a chart in National Geographic a few years back showing health spending per person across the X-axis and life expectancy (or some other metric of health outcome) up the Y. Not surprisingly the dots for different countries were clustered up the diagonal, except for the US out on its own in the bottom right corner.
 
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