Tube Delay in Middle of Advance = Missed Departure

[F Great Eastern]

Say for example I bought an advance for Norwich to Bath, which involved a tube leg between Liverpool Street and Paddington, what would happen if because of a Tube delay, I missed my train from Paddington?

Would GWR endorse me to travel on a later service to Bath, or are LU delays in the middle of two National Rail trips not counted as a reason to be able to travel on a later service? If so has anyone

I've never had this problem myself, but a colleague mentioned today that Virgin forced them to pay a new fare when something similar happened twice in the last month when making their expenses claim because LU trips and non National Rail trips are not covered by the rules meaning you should be allowed to take a later train.

 

[Hadders]

Say for example I bought an advance for Norwich to Bath, which involved a tube leg between Liverpool Street and Paddington, what would happen if because of a Tube delay, I missed my train from Paddington?

Would GWR endorse me to travel on a later service to Bath, or are LU delays in the middle of two National Rail trips not counted as a reason to be able to travel on a later service?

I've never had this problem myself, but a colleague mentioned today that Virgin forced them to pay a new fare when something similar happened twice in the last month when making their expenses claim because LU trips are not covered.

You can travel on the next available service. I wouldn't expect any Delay Repay from LU though - I suspect all you'd get is the equivalent cost of a single Zone 1 tube journey. I am not surprised to hear the claims about Virgin - sounds about right for Euston.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Say for example I bought an advance for Norwich to Bath, which involved a tube leg between Liverpool Street and Paddington, what would happen if because of a Tube delay, I missed my train from Paddington?

Would GWR endorse me to travel on a later service to Bath, or are LU delays in the middle of two National Rail trips not counted as a reason to be able to travel on a later service? If so has anyone

I've never had this problem myself, but a colleague mentioned today that Virgin forced them to pay a new fare when something similar happened twice in the last month when making their expenses claim because LU trips and non National Rail trips are not covered by the rules meaning you should be allowed to take a later train.

I would encourage your colleague to complain to Virgin. Provided they had bought their ticket without being advised of any issues on the Tube (which is to be expected given the means of buying most Advances and that, by necessity, it must be done well before getting to London on that kind of a journey), they were entitled to get the next available train.

Charging again in this way is typical rail industry behaviour. We see it again and again. Never mind whether or not it is correct to charge again - it is simply atrocious customer service, where missing the train has been something that, effectively, is the fault of the rail industry (even if the specific delay was on LU, which, it will of course be pointed out, likes to exist in its own little world), and certainly something outside the control of the passenger.

It is a good thing, from the perspective of the rail industry's liability, and a bad thing, from the passenger's perspective, that the regulated banking sector's requirement to "treat the customer fairly" does not apply here too. The consequences of treating the customer unfairly (note: unfair doesn't mean always letting them off!) can often be of a similar order of magnitude of costs and/or inconvenience.

 

[sheff1]

... but a colleague mentioned today that Virgin forced them to pay a new fare when something similar happened twice in the last month

No surprise that Virgin staff are refusing to comply with their contractual obligations. They are one of, if not the, main culprits for that. Strangely, some posters are quite insistent that Virgin do everything they can to avoid adverse publicity, yet the actions of their staff frequently seem designed to maximise adverse publicity and Virgin seemingly take no action to weed out such behaviour.

 

[kristiang85]

I must admit my experiences of Virgin at Euston are completely the opposite; once I missed my advance from Euston due to simply underestimating the tube journey time (which I admitted) and they gave me a new ticket for the next train absolutely no problem.

And last year a friend missed their advance train (who was meant to travel with me) due to being let out of work late, and she was allowed the next service and we met up in Liverpool no problem.

Maybe these two instances were lucky.

However, that second example does beg a question - what happens if two passengers working in separate parts of London are travelling on an advance ticket with a Two Together Railcard, and one is delayed by a tube issue? In that instance above, would I have to wait for my late friend to arrive and we both get a new ticket on the next service, or would I have to get their booked train and my friend follow on later? Given it was an issue out of our control, it would be unfair if either was penalised (i.e. not being able to get the right train vs not travelling together on TTRC)

Edit: Rewritten for clarity of example

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I must admit my experiences of Virgin at Euston are completely the opposite; once I missed my advance from Euston due to simply underestimating the tube journey time (which I admitted) and they gave me a new ticket for the next train absolutely no problem.

And last year a friend missed their advance train (who was meant to travel with me) due to being let out of work late, and she was allowed the next service and we met up in Liverpool no problem.

Maybe these two instances were lucky.

However, that does beg a question - what happens if two of you working in separate parts of London are travelling on a two together railcard, and one is delayed by a tube issue? Would person A at the station have to wait for the late person B to arrive and both get a new ticket on the next service, or would Person A have to get their booked train and Person B follow on later?

According to the terms as they are written, they would both have to get a new ticket for a later train (though if the issues are foreseen before the departure time of the booked service, person A could go to the ticket office and excess the tickets to a walkup ticket for the difference + £10).

I'm not sure such onerous terms would stand up to scrutiny under Schedule 2 of the Consumer Rights Act 2015, but equally it would, in practice at least (even if not at a later followup), be an academic argument with the always-manned barrier line at Euston.

 

[edwin_m]

All this is presumably conditional on allowing the required time for crossing London, which in my experience is a lot more than what is achievable when everything is running well.

 

[westv]

What would happen if a passenger was in the situation where they were contractually allowed to take a later train due to tube delays but point blank refused to pay an extra costs incorrectly demanded by staff?

 

[Bletchleyite]

If it is a through ticket including the Tube journey, it is absolutely covered, though Delay Repay would not apply because LU is not part of that scheme.

If you have two separate Advance tickets and do *not* have anything between them but do leave the published minimum connection across London, it is questionable and has been debated here on many occasions before. I've heard it said that a paper Tube single would count, but use of contactless may not.

If you don't meet the published minimum connection, you're on your own.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I must admit my experiences of Virgin at Euston are completely the opposite; once I missed my advance from Euston due to simply underestimating the tube journey time (which I admitted) and they gave me a new ticket for the next train absolutely no problem.

I find there is, both anecdotally and from my own experience, a significant difference between how helpful the ticket office staff are and how helpful the barrier staff are.

My general advice at Euston would be, time permitting, not to attempt to board a train where a barrier check is in place if there is anything even remotely iffy about your situation, but instead to go to the ticket office and get your ticket endorsed and stamped as valid, which they have in the past done for me in a variety of situations without being awkward about it, even including things they shouldn't have done such as passing a LM-only ticket for travel on VT when acceptance was not in place but a cancellation in the late evening was going to lead to a long wait.

 

[yorkie]

Say for example I bought an advance for Norwich to Bath, which involved a tube leg between Liverpool Street and Paddington, what would happen if because of a Tube delay, I missed my train from Paddington?

Would GWR endorse me to travel on a later service to Bath, or are LU delays in the middle of two National Rail trips not counted as a reason to be able to travel on a later service? If so has anyone

I've never had this problem myself, but a colleague mentioned today that Virgin forced them to pay a new fare when something similar happened twice in the last month when making their expenses claim because LU trips and non National Rail trips are not covered by the rules meaning you should be allowed to take a later train.

You are entitled to take the next available service, but Delay Repay doesn't apply. It's unclear how much compensation LU would pay out.

All this is presumably conditional on allowing the required time for crossing London, which in my experience is a lot more than what is achievable when everything is running well.

All journey planners / booking engines will do this.

The only risk therefore is if a passenger books each leg separately, and fails to take account of the minimum connection time. This risk can be eliminated by using an accredited split ticketing website, which will give you one through itinerary (which is good evidence of a contract) and be able to support you in the event if problems.

If you have two separate Advance tickets and do *not* have anything between them but do leave the published minimum connection across London, it is questionable and has been debated here on many occasions before. I've heard it said that a paper Tube single would count, but use of contactless may not.

I don't agree with this. However we can agree it is a good idea to book such a combination as one journey using an accredited split ticketing website, as the resulting itinerary is good evidence of a contract, the tickets issued will unquestionably join up, the itinerary will be valid, and support from the retailer will be available in the (hopefully unlikely) event of a dispute.

That doesn't make it any more valid but it may reduce the possibility of arguments, and any arguments would be easier to make.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I don't agree with this. However we can agree it is a good idea to book such a combination as one journey using an accredited split ticketing website, as the resulting itinerary is good evidence of a contract, the tickets issued will unquestionably join up, the itinerary will be valid, and support from the retailer will be available in the (hopefully unlikely) event of a dispute.

That doesn't make it any more valid but it may reduce the possibility of arguments, and any arguments would be easier to make.

Indeed - that is the easiest option for your "average punter", although the more advanced put there might prefer to construct an itinerary themselves, with one Advance or the other being issued to/from Zone U1*.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't agree with this. However we can agree it is a good idea to book such a combination as one journey using an accredited split ticketing website, as the resulting itinerary is good evidence of a contract, the tickets issued will unquestionably join up, the itinerary will be valid, and support from the retailer will be available in the (hopefully unlikely) event of a dispute.

That doesn't make it any more valid but it may reduce the possibility of arguments, and any arguments would be easier to make.

Worth carrying a printout of your itinerary even if it isn't a split if you're coming from a non-reservable service, as with those not being printed on the ticket[1] it avoids any possibility of arguing "but you should have travelled earlier".

[1] They used to be printed as SUGGESTED SERVICE, that could really do with returning.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Indeed - that is the easiest option for your "average punter", although the more advanced put there might prefer to construct an itinerary themselves, with one Advance or the other being issued to/from Zone U1*.

Doing that (with the proper connection time left) unquestionably gives you a contiguous split. Not that the incompetent VT barrier staff won't argue anyway, of course.

 

[maniacmartin]

I agree with Bletchleyite's comments. If you want to split in London, I'd advise buying the first ticket be issued to Zone U1* London to make sure the whole journey is ticketted by National Rail and thus subject to the NRCoT. An LU-only ticket or Oyster usage in the middle would not be covered by my reading of the rules that are available to the public.