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Two trains on single track

GWVillager

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Apologies if this has come up before, but I cannot find it if it has.

Can two trains, travelling in the same direction, one behind the other, travel in the same single track section? You'll have to excuse my poor artistic skills, but, in the context of this attached drawing, could Train 2 enter the single track section before Train 1 has left it? Train 1 is protected by signals (the black squares, with lines indicating blocks).
1711398125269.png
 
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InkyScrolls

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The short answer is yes. The slightly longer answer is 'only under TCB signalling because you can't subdivide a single line section under AB signalling'.
 

Railsigns

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The slightly longer answer is 'only under TCB signalling because you can't subdivide a single line section under AB signalling'.

It's perfectly possible with Electric Token Block or RETB providing the signalling is designed for it.

The AB system is generally associated only with double lines.
 

Nottingham59

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I would have thought it happens all the time when a bidirectional line is used for single line working.
 

james_the_xv

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In this situation yes, but you can't have more than one train in the same block at any one time (whether that be under TCB, AB, or TB/RETB)
 

Deepgreen

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I think, as long as a signal is active and protecting the first train, there is no issue with this. The same principles of signalling apply whether it is a single line or double track, etc., namely that a train can proceed as long the signalling system is designed to allow it to, and the designed safe gap between trains (governed by signal placement) is maintained.
 

thenorthern

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Indeed it can happen and as others have said it does many times.

I think I read somewhere that the ERTMS used on the Cambrian line was designed so that trains could follow each other on single lines.
 

norbitonflyer

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Certainly wasn't approved in early days - one train only in a single line section. That train has the token/tablet/staff for that section. The collision at Radstock on the Somerset & Dorset in 1876 was in part caused by misuse of an unofficial intermediate block post. The signal cabin was there to control access to a siding, but at busy times it was used as you describe. The line was controlled by telegraphic crossing orders, rather than the use of a physical token.
But the two signal boxes on either side could not communicate directly with each other, only with the intermediate box. And the intermediate box could not coimmunicate directly with tyhe dispatcher responsible for crossing orders. On the night of the accident, trains were admitted to the the two sections from opposite ends simultaneously, one of them without informing the unfortunate 15 year old in charge of the intermediate box (who had what we would now call "learning difficulties") that he had done so. An inability either to pull the signal levers (due to lack of physical strength) nor to light the lamps (due to lack of oil) did the rest.
 

Re 4/4

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I believe that's what "staff and ticket" used to be for too - to send several trains in a row through the single line with only one train staff, you show all drivers that you have the staff for the section, give all but the last a ticket to proceed with the words "and the staff will follow", then the last train through carries the staff itself.
 

Bovverboy

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I believe that's what "staff and ticket" used to be for too - to send several trains in a row through the single line with only one train staff, you show all drivers that you have the staff for the section, give all but the last a ticket to proceed with the words "and the staff will follow", then the last train through carries the staff itself.
That's not the same thing, the point of the staff & ticket system was to enable two consecutive trains to run through a single line section, to overcome the problem of there not being an intermediate train in the reverse direction to bring the staff back. The staff & ticket system wouldn't allow two trains to be in the same signalling section at the same time.
 

edwin_m

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I believe that's what "staff and ticket" used to be for too - to send several trains in a row through the single line with only one train staff, you show all drivers that you have the staff for the section, give all but the last a ticket to proceed with the words "and the staff will follow", then the last train through carries the staff itself.
For staff and ticket the first train has to get to the other end of the single line section before the second one can enter it (and similarly for any subsequent ones in the same direction). It's simply a way of operating a single line that allows several trains to follow in the same direction, but doesn't allow more than one to occupy the single line at the same time. (Edit: Bovverboy has got in first!)

The OP is suggesting a situation where several trains can be on the single line at the same time, travelling in the same direction. I concur with previous replies that this is OK with track circuit block, assuming the trains are separated by red signals in the normal way (so it's multiple sections, use of "single line section" in the singular (!) is technically wrong).

Where both ends are controlled from the same place, setting a route into one end of the single line will illuminate a direction arrow on the panel/screen and prevent any train being routed in from the other end. If they are controlled from different places, then there will be some kind of slotting arrangement so the two signallers have to agree to admit a train from either end. Either prevents a "Mexican stand-off" situation which would be embarrassing but not unsafe, as the trains would just be brought to a stop at red signals and one of them would have to reverse out.
 

Efini92

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In this situation yes, but you can't have more than one train in the same block at any one time (whether that be under TCB, AB, or TB/RETB)
But as it’s the railway, there’s always exceptions to that rule :D
 

etr221

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For a single line railway, connecting two stations, the safe working, signalling, system has to protect against two problems: one is that all trains on that railway should be going in the same direcction; and second, that they are kept apart, in separate block sections. Normally, in British conditions such lines were relatively short (between stations), and trains relatively infrequent, so making the line between two stations just one block section, with occupancy controlled not only by signal but by staff/ticket/tolken, was a perfectly adequate way of running things, and so 'the norm'. Elsewhere, with longer single line sections and a need to run a more trains, techniques of subdividing the the single line section into seperate blocks were developed - sometimes described as 'absolute permissive block' working: absolute, over the whole single line section, between trains in opposing directions, permissive (or absolute over individual blocks) for trains in the same direction. There is a description of it in Indian practice at https://irfca.org/faq/faq-signal4_b.html (towards the bottom); it was also widely used in North America: for a comprehensive desciption/explanation see http://www.lundsten.dk/us_signaling/abs_apb/index.html

It quite often involved automatic signals - a train entering a single line section would tip all the signals for opposing trains to stop, but beyond that they would function normally - so at the back of a train, you could see the signals for the opposite direction clear to green behind it...
 
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norbitonflyer

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Either prevents a "Mexican stand-off" situation which would be embarrassing but not unsafe, as the trains would just be brought to a stop at red signals and one of them would have to reverse out.
Apparently this happened a few times on the Northern Line when TBTC (automatic train operation system) was being rolled out. Initially there was nothing to prevent one train following another down the dead-end single-track Mill Hill East branch. The second train would be unable to get to the station at Mill Hill East, either because the first train was still in the platform, or because it was already coming back and they met half way. Both trains would then be unable to move until the second one was authorised to reverse to Finchley Central
 

Mat17

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Would 'loop' lines count? I'm thinking where trains would always go around in one direction of travel, Liverpool Central maybe? I've never used the Mersey Rail network, but I'm aware all trains go around in one direction.
 

Gloster

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I have to say that, as a former signalman, every time I see the thread title I give a little start of horror. It is the signalman’s worst nightmare.
 

edwin_m

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Would 'loop' lines count? I'm thinking where trains would always go around in one direction of travel, Liverpool Central maybe? I've never used the Mersey Rail network, but I'm aware all trains go around in one direction.
Not really the same thing, as these are always used in the same direction so just like one track of a double track really.
 

RGM654

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I'm jumping in to ask something a bit different, but more or less consistent with the thread title. With conventional semaphore signalling, absolute block (or permissive block for slow freight trains) was normal for two-track lines but not for single-track, hence the need for token/tablet/staff. The West Highlind line now has RETB, which is a modern equivalent. But trains on modern bi-directional tracks are controlled by the same systems as on unidirectional tracks. Why do those lines not need anything additional?
 

Tio Terry

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Many years ago, in BR days, there used to be an intermediate tablet instrument point and home and distant signals in both directions at Berney Arms. It split the Reedham - Breydon Junction single line into two sections, so, yes, it can be done and has been done. I don't remember it being used much, it was switched out most of the time - giving the odd sight of conflicting signals displaying a procede aspect - but some mostly summer Saturdays when there used to be trains from the Midlands to Great Yarmouth for holiday makers. But I can remember being involved with it's removal.
 

43066

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Apologies if this has come up before, but I cannot find it if it has.

Can two trains, travelling in the same direction, one behind the other, travel in the same single track section? You'll have to excuse my poor artistic skills, but, in the context of this attached drawing, could Train 2 enter the single track section before Train 1 has left it? Train 1 is protected by signals (the black squares, with lines indicating blocks).
View attachment 155111

Unless I’m missing something - and I’m not a signaller, so I might be(!) - the diagram just shows two trains being separated by signalling section, which is the same thing that happens routinely on all TCB lines?

Two trains in one signalling section, rather than one single line section, is the big no no (other than under permissive working, assistance etc.) AIUI under TCB single line sections have a direction of flow device that interlocks signals to allow working in each direction, but other than that it’s operation as usual.

The tunnels on the Hastings Line are a good example of this “in the wild”, as is the line from Crystal Palace to Beckenham Junction.
 
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edwin_m

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I'm jumping in to ask something a bit different, but more or less consistent with the thread title. With conventional semaphore signalling, absolute block (or permissive block for slow freight trains) was normal for two-track lines but not for single-track, hence the need for token/tablet/staff. The West Highlind line now has RETB, which is a modern equivalent. But trains on modern bi-directional tracks are controlled by the same systems as on unidirectional tracks. Why do those lines not need anything additional?
The use of additional controls such as staff and ticket for single lines actually dates from before the Absolute Block system. The time interval system used previously couldn't work on single lines, because any signalman could send a train forward on their own initiative, subject only to the elapsed time since the last train. Something more was needed to prevent trains being sent in from both ends of a single line at the same time.

Absolute Block relies on the actions of the signalmen to ensure there is only one train in a section. This reliance was reduced by various extra controls over the years but still remains, particularly because there's nothing to stop the signalman giving train out of section without observing the tail lamp or indeed the train itself. On a double track, if two trains are somehow allowed into the same section, the first one may keep ahead and avoid any collision, or if collision takes place it will be a tail-ender which is typically less severe. Using the same system on a single line, the same error would almost inevitably result in a head-on collision. So the increased hazard from signalman error needs an extra protection on single lines, in the form of one of the various staff, tablet or token systems or latterly a tokenless block where the signalmen each end confirm the direction of the next train by mutual agreement and the setting of levers or operation of acceptance plungers.

Track Circuit Block has the important difference that the absence of a train in a section is positively proved by track circuits or axle counters, and if the section is not proved to be unoccupied the signals at either end will not clear to admit a train. Thus the signaller is not relied on to confirm that the section is unoccupied, except in the case of equipment failure when extra measures will be applied.

There is a partial exception on dead end sections that might previously have been worked "One Engine in Steam". These may omit track circuits over most of their length, and use the occupation of several track circuits in the correct sequence to confirm that a train once signalled in has come back out. Obviously this doesn't protect against a train being divided, but with continuous brakes it's very unlikely a divided train would go un-noticed.

Nevertheless, in any form of signalling, entrance to single lines may have additional protection against Signal Passed at Danger, such as traps leading to sand drags, detonator placers or more recently TPWS loops.
 

Railsigns

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The use of additional controls such as staff and ticket for single lines actually dates from before the Absolute Block system. The time interval system used previously couldn't work on single lines, because any signalman could send a train forward on their own initiative, subject only to the elapsed time since the last train. Something more was needed to prevent trains being sent in from both ends of a single line at the same time.
Time interval working was used on some single lines, in conjunction with train staff and ticket. The train staff ensured that trains couldn't enter the single line from opposite ends at the same time, but there also had to be a means of separating trains that passed consecutively through the section in the same direction. One way to do this was to use the block telegraph system to communicate the arrival of trains through the section. Before the block system was mandated on passenger lines by the Regulation of Railways Act 1889, the other option was to use time interval working.
 

edwin_m

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I've just posted a link to this accident report on another thread. It took place on the Bolton-Blackburn line where the signalling (in 1973 and probably still today) allows several trains to follow each other in the same direction, including the use of worked catch points. I'm not quoting because the relevant part is the track plan at the end.

 
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Apologies if this has come up before, but I cannot find it if it has.

Can two trains, travelling in the same direction, one behind the other, travel in the same single track section? You'll have to excuse my poor artistic skills, but, in the context of this attached drawing, could Train 2 enter the single track section before Train 1 has left it? Train 1 is protected by signals (the black squares, with lines indicating blocks).
View attachment 155111

Yes. The Lanark branch for example has an inbound controlled signal not far from the midway point, in addition to the signal that controls the points before the station (2 platforms). It was done so that if two trains are running quite close to each other (say empty stock moves from Motherwell in the morning), then the second one wouldn’t have to sit blocking the Up WCML until the first had reached the station.

In reality, I’ve never known two trains to travel inbound to Lanark on the branch at the same time in timetabled service, but the platforms can accommodate up to 4x3car trains (2 in each) with permissive working available in the platforms, so the option remains.
 

Basil Jet

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Surely it happens every time two trains occupy one terminus platform, for instance in Kings Cross Suburban.
 

matchmaker

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Many years ago, in BR days, there used to be an intermediate tablet instrument point and home and distant signals in both directions at Berney Arms. It split the Reedham - Breydon Junction single line into two sections, so, yes, it can be done and has been done. I don't remember it being used much, it was switched out most of the time - giving the odd sight of conflicting signals displaying a procede aspect - but some mostly summer Saturdays when there used to be trains from the Midlands to Great Yarmouth for holiday makers. But I can remember being involved with it's removal.
There were at one time permissive tablet instruments on this section of line.

From The Signal Box
 

Railperf

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What would be the best type of signalling for a single line with reasonably spaced loops along the way - especially for a route such as Highland Main Line?
On another note, Some single lines such as the Lea Valley 3rd track from Lea Bridge to Meridian Water are almost like a long siding, where I am assuming that modern interlocking prevents another train being routed onto it until the occupying train has exited. And I'm assuming special procedures are in place if another train has to enter the section to rescue it. Would I be right in thinking that Watford to St Albans, Witham to Braintree and Marks Tey to Sudbury are similar examples?
 

MadMac

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Yes. The Lanark branch for example has an inbound controlled signal not far from the midway point, in addition to the signal that controls the points before the station (2 platforms). It was done so that if two trains are running quite close to each other (say empty stock moves from Motherwell in the morning), then the second one wouldn’t have to sit blocking the Up WCML until the first had reached the station.

In reality, I’ve never known two trains to travel inbound to Lanark on the branch at the same time in timetabled service, but the platforms can accommodate up to 4x3car trains (2 in each) with permissive working available in the platforms, so the option remains.
Do they still have the “clunker” (XT1900) automatic route setting unit to put the branch into “one in - one out” mode?
 

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