Tyne n wear metro delay-have to pay difference on LNER

[londonbridge]

I got to Stadium Of Light at 17:05, metro was delayed and didn’t arrive till 17:40 so I missed my 17:59 Newcastle to Kings X where I had an advance.

Spoke to the lady in the ticket office (I made sure I got her name) and she told me to speak to the train manager on the 18:29, which I did. He’s told me to board and he’ll charge me the difference between what I’ve already paid and the full single fare.

I don’t see why I should have to pay this, don’t suppose there’s any chance of claiming the excess back from Nexus either, it’s not my fault I was delayed.

Edit: I paid £44.90 for the advance.

Further edit, result, he’s just come round checking tickets so I reminded him I’d spoken to him on boarding and told him how much I’d paid already, he scanned my ticket and moved on so I just thanked him and that’s that. Mods please close the thread if you wish.

Final edit before thread gets closed, don’t suppose I can do anything about delay repay as I’ll be 45 late getting into London now.

 

[miklcct]

What ticket did you have for the metro? Is it a through ticket to the National Rail service?

If not, as the metro isn't part of National Rail, the delay protection doesn't apply in this case, similar to using a bus to connect to National Rail.

 

[Deerfold]

Got to Stadium Of Light at 5:05, metro was delayed and didn’t arrive till 5:40 so I missed my 17:59 Newcastle to Kings X where I had an advance. Spoke to the lady in the ticket office (I made sure I got her name) and she told me to speak to the train manager on the 6:29, which I did. He’s told me to board and he’ll charge me the difference between what I’ve already paid and the full single fare. Don’t see why I should have to pay this, don’t suppose there’s any chance of claiming the excess back from Nexus either, it’s not my fault I was delayed.

Edit: I paid £44.90 for the advance.

Further edit, result, he’s just come round checking tickets so I reminded him I’d spoken to him on boarding and told him how much I’d paid already, he scanned my ticket and moved on so I just thanked him and that’s that. Mods please close the thread if you wish.

Final edit before thread gets closed, don’t suppose I can do anything about delay repay as I’ll be 45 late getting into London now.

Where was your Advance ticket between? Just Newcastle and London?

 

[ainsworth74]

It depends on the ticket held, if you can tell us that then we can advise what you're entitlement was and whether the TM was providing good customer service and showing discretion or if they were just following the rules!

 

[DanNCL]

Stadium of Light is on the section where NRCOT (National Rail Conditons of Travel) applies to Metro and therefore the usual rules around missed connections should apply, however in practice this isn’t always the case. Using a Metro zonal ticket shouldn’t make a difference, it should be treated as split ticketing. Again though, should and and actually are aren’t the same thing.

If you’d travelled from anywhere outside of the area where NRCOT applies to Metro (journeys from any station between Fellgate and Sunderland inclusive to Newcastle Central, Heworth or Sunderland), they would actually have been entitled to charge you the full price for a new ticket as it would be considered as a failure to leave sufficient time to reach your origin station, in that sense your rights would have been the same if you’d travelled to the station by bus. So being offered an excess is actually better than what they technically should have done.

LNER have had issues with not recognising Tyne & Wear Metro as an NRCOT service on the Sunderland line before, both with regards to connections and with regards to their own obligation to accept Nexus zonal tickets on their daily Sunderland service.

 

[gray1404]

You should not have been charged any extra as the section or the Metro between Newcastle and Sunderland is treated as the equivalent of using a National Rail service. How much time did you allow to change trains at Newcastle?

 

[Watershed]

Stadium of Light is on the section where NRCOT applies to Metro and therefore the usual rules around missed connections should apply, however in practice this isn’t always the case. Using a Metro zonal ticket shouldn’t make a difference, it should be treated as split ticketing. Again though, should and and actually are aren’t the same thing.

If you’d travelled from anywhere outside of the area where NRCOT applies to Metro (journeys from any station between Fellgate and Sunderland inclusive to Newcastle Central, Heworth or Sunderland), they would actually have been entitled to charge you the full price for a new ticket as it would be considered as a failure to leave sufficient time to reach your origin station, in that sense your rights would have been the same if you’d travelled to the station by bus. So being offered an excess is actually better than what they technically should have done.

LNER have had issues with not recognising Tyne & Wear Metro as an NRCOT service on the Sunderland line before, both with regards to connections and with regards to their own obligation to accept Nexus zonal tickets on their daily Sunderland service.

The situation with Nexus is broadly the same as that with the Underground. They're not a Train Operator as defined in the NRCoT, so the NRCoT don't apply to travel on Nexus.

However, it's possible to buy a through ticket that includes validity on Nexus (on the interavailable section), and if a through ticket is held, then it remains one journey and there is an entitlement to take the next train in the event of a missed connection.

I don't think you would have the same protection if you had split tickets whereby one of your tickets was issued by Nexus, but the position is somewhat unclear.

 

[londonbridge]

Tickets were an LNER advance between Newcastle and Kings X and I paid for Stadium Of Light to Newcastle with my POP PAYG card.

Sometimes I book the 5:30 Grand Central and sometimes I book LNER depending on which offers the cheaper ticket. I tend not to book until the tv deadline has passed and the game is definitely on Saturday at 3. If booking LNER I never go for anything earlier than 6. I’ll aim to get out and beat the crowds and can usually be at SOL metro by 5:05, there’s one that usually comes through around that time, but even if you miss that, as long as everything is running okay the next scheduled one will still get you to Newcastle by 5:50.

So basically I should just book from Sunderland and if the ticket from Sunderland-London via Newcastle is cheaper than the Grand Central and I book that then I’ll be covered if there’s a metro delay?

 

[Watershed]

Tickets were an LNER advance between Newcastle and Kings X and I paid for Stadium Of Light to Newcastle with my POP PAYG card.

Sometimes I book the 5:30 Grand Central and sometimes I book LNER depending on which offers the cheaper ticket. I tend not to book until the tv deadline has passed and the game is definitely on Saturday at 3. If booking LNER I never go for anything earlier than 6. I’ll aim to get out and beat the crowds and can usually be at SOL metro by 5:05, there’s one that usually comes through around that time, but even if you miss that, as long as everything is running okay the next scheduled one will still get you to Newcastle by 5:50.

So basically I should just book from Sunderland and if the ticket from Sunderland-London via Newcastle is cheaper than the Grand Central and I book that then I’ll be covered if there’s a metro delay?

Yes, exactly. You are on safer ground if you hold a through ticket, or at the least a "National Rail" ticket for the Metro portion of the journey.

 

[londonbridge]

Thanks for all the advice, we’ve only got one 3pm Saturday hone game left and I’m on 5:30 Grand Central for that,, but I’ll bear all your advice in mind for next season.

 

[miklcct]

You should not have been charged any extra as the section or the Metro between Newcastle and Sunderland is treated as the equivalent of using a National Rail service. How much time did you allow to change trains at Newcastle?

So is that section an interavailable route?

 

[30907]

Further edit, result, he’s just come round checking tickets so I reminded him I’d spoken to him on boarding and told him how much I’d paid already, he scanned my ticket and moved on so I just thanked him and that’s that. Mods please close the thread if you wish.

Maybe he realised the specific issue re the Sunderland route - or was just kind

Final edit before thread gets closed, don’t suppose I can do anything about delay repay as I’ll be 45 late getting into London now.

Might as well try, but do it by email not online. Do Nexus do delay repay anyway, because it's their issue.

 

[Wallsendmag]

So is that section an interavailable route?

Any ticket between Newcastle and sunderland is valid on either Metro or Train

 

[londonbridge]

Maybe he realised the specific issue re the Sunderland route - or was just kind

Might as well try, but do it by email not online. Do Nexus do delay repay anyway, because it's their issue.

From Nexus website:

Refunds due to delays

If you are delayed by more than 15 minutes than advertised, you can claim a refund. For a delay of more than 15 minutes or if you wait on a platform for more than 15 minutes longer than advertised we will give you back the ticket price of the single Metro journey that was delayed.* If you buy a ticket for a specific day and can’t use it due to train cancellations or service disruption we will refund the price you paid for the ticket.

 

[Anvil1984]

Any ticket between Newcastle and sunderland is valid on either Metro or Train

Pretty sure POP pay as you go which the OP held is not valid as the heavy rail stations don’t have POP readers. Other POP cards such as the weekly, monthly tickets etc are valid alongside the obvious paper tickets etc

 

[Wallsendmag]

Pretty sure POP pay as you go which the OP held is not valid as the heavy rail stations don’t have POP readers. Other POP cards such as the weekly, monthly tickets etc are valid alongside the obvious paper tickets etc

Actually you're wrong the LNER gates can read the POP cards but I don't count PAYG as a ticket.

 

[Anvil1984]

Actually you're wrong the LNER gates can read the POP cards but I don't count PAYG as a ticket.

Bit of a terse answer! The OP had a PAYG ticket so does it operate the LNER gates? If not it doesn’t help in this scenario, what about Heworth on the heavy rail side?

“Tickets were an LNER advance between Newcastle and Kings X and I paid for Stadium Of Light to Newcastle with my POP PAYG card”

 

[swt_passenger]

I’m sure it was stated in the knowledge base at one point that a delay using a TfL Oyster PAYG fare could not be treated as part of a through journey for delay repay purposes. Does that not create a precedent to rule out Metro PAYG as well?

 

[Haywain]

The OP had a PAYG ticket so does it operate the LNER gates?

It (the POP card) won't operate the gates at Newcastle Central as it doesn't hold a ticket.

 

[Watershed]

I’m sure it was stated in the knowledge base at one point that a delay using a TfL Oyster PAYG fare could not be treated as part of a through journey for delay repay purposes. Does that not create a precedent to rule out Metro PAYG as well?

The Knowledge Base is incorrect if it says that as a blanket statement (I can't recall that it does).

There is nothing in the NRCoT which says that TfL PAYG (at least, when used on National Rail services) is treated differently from a paper ticket when it comes to Delay Repay. The issue is a practical one, namely that because you don't "buy" your ticket until you touch in, there will be circumstances where you can't claim because you will already have known about the delay at that point.

In any event, Metro PAYG is radically different as it falls under a different set of Conditions of Carriage and involves an operator that isn't a Train Company under the NRCoT definition.

 

[Hadders]

I’m sure it was stated in the knowledge base at one point that a delay using a TfL Oyster PAYG fare could not be treated as part of a through journey for delay repay purposes. Does that not create a precedent to rule out Metro PAYG as well?

You can use Oyster or contactless to cross London but you do need to make sure you observe the minimum interchange times and in the event of a delay on the Underground you would potentially need to get your journey history validated. This is why we normally recommend purchasing Advance tickets that 'join-up'.

 

[HarryF]

This is why we normally recommend purchasing Advance tickets that 'join-up'.

this is fine for now, but what happens when CCST is phased out?

 

[Hadders]

this is fine for now, but what happens when CCST is phased out?

CCST is just the medium on which the ticket is held. Going forward it’ll be a ticket containing a barcode, whether it’ll be an e-ticket purchased online (and displayed on a phone or printed out) or a paper ticket from a ticket machine.

You’ll still be able to purchase the ticket from, for example Stevenage to London Underground and DLR Zones 1-2.

There is a risk that these type of tickets might get withdrawn but we can deal with that if that happens.

 

[miklcct]

The Knowledge Base is incorrect if it says that as a blanket statement (I can't recall that it does).

There is nothing in the NRCoT which says that TfL PAYG (at least, when used on National Rail services) is treated differently from a paper ticket when it comes to Delay Repay. The issue is a practical one, namely that because you don't "buy" your ticket until you touch in, there will be circumstances where you can't claim because you will already have known about the delay at that point.

In any event, Metro PAYG is radically different as it falls under a different set of Conditions of Carriage and involves an operator that isn't a Train Company under the NRCoT definition.

I had no problem claiming Delay Repay when used a combination of PAYG and a traditional ticket, with the PAYG journey included both National Rail and London Underground.

I'd say that it's a grey area if the PAYG is used solely on the Underground / DLR.