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Tyne & Wear Metro Fleet Replacement: Awarded to Stadler

DustyBin

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Since returning to service after the door fiasco, only the T121 and T102 weekday diagrams have been covered by 555s. T123, T125 and T104 have been metrocars, and no 555s have ran passenger service the past couple weekends to my knowledge. Only exception was T111 and T133 on BH Monday, which ran as 555s. My understanding is that, while Nexus and Stadler have agreed on a software fix, it has not actually been implemented yet. So, for now, the temporary fix is to just have 2 members of the staff in the driver's cab at all times. Of course, this means more drivers are busy at a time, so fewer diagrams are able to be covered.

That will explain why I haven’t seen any 555s recently. It was becoming a daily occurrence to see or travel on them (when I actually use the system), but they seem to have suddenly disappeared!

Hopefully they’ll return soon as they’re very nice trains (despite my thoughts on the all-longitudinal seating).
 
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pazanate

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Since returning to service after the door fiasco, only the T121 and T102 weekday diagrams have been covered by 555s. T123, T125 and T104 have been metrocars, and no 555s have ran passenger service the past couple weekends to my knowledge. Only exception was T111 and T133 on BH Monday, which ran as 555s. My understanding is that, while Nexus and Stadler have agreed on a software fix, it has not actually been implemented yet. So, for now, the temporary fix is to just have 2 members of the staff in the driver's cab at all times. Of course, this means more drivers are busy at a time, so fewer diagrams are able to be covered.
Good to know this, thought I was going mad when I consistently tried to catch the T123 or T125 and a Metrocar would pull up haha
 

BruceS

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30 Apr 2012
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Hello,

I’m in Newcastle to visit and would love to try and catch a new EMU tomorrow, where can I find the timetable for the mentioned T121 and T102 services?
 

Peter Sarf

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It’s not a big deal. Graffiti is commonplace in Europe. Spain and Italy have heavily graffitied fleets

Those trains run on time, are cheaper and amazingly are photographed and entirely unaffected by it. Nobody is championing graffiti

Suggesting sharing the images is supporting it is utter banal nonsense, a typical backward British prim and proper attitude. It’s a train…it got graffitied…it’ll still open its doors and still welcome passengers.

Glad to see more arriving. Less knicker cliniching needed
I beg to differ.
It makes the trains/walls look unpleasant and uninviting - so it is nice to see it removed ASAP.
It also lets these people express themselves in a way that normal people would not - so removing it ASAP somewhat defeats their vanity efforts, which might put them off.

A bit pedantic.
It is not really grafitti (which is more commonly a political/social message).
It is called tagging and is akin to a dog cocking its leg up against a tree and scent marking.

Feel free to start a new thread if needs be.
 

Volvictof

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I beg to differ.
It makes the trains/walls look unpleasant and uninviting - so it is nice to see it removed ASAP.
It also lets these people express themselves in a way that normal people would not - so removing it ASAP somewhat defeats their vanity efforts, which might put them off.

A bit pedantic.
It is not really grafitti (which is more commonly a political/social message).
It is called tagging and is akin to a dog cocking its leg up against a tree and scent marking.

Feel free to start a new thread if needs be.
Nothing really deters them unfortunately.
and to be more of a pedant, a tag is a small signature. These are full graffiti pieces.
 

Killingworth

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Nothing really deters them unfortunately.
and to be more of a pedant, a tag is a small signature. These are full graffiti pieces.

There are multiple businesses legally supplying specialist graffiti spray paints, worldwide. 'Free delivery over £60' and next day for a wide range of materials. There's money being made out of graffiti.

I detest the way they bespoil buildings and trains.

However the organisation required to access so many of the sites without apprehension is impressive. So is the speed at which they must work in so many dangerous locations., often at night.

Retailers must know all their wares aren't going for legitimate works of art in authorised locations.

For every problem there's a potential remedy one such being Antigraffitipaint.com Hopefully the new Metro units are protected in one of these ways. They seem to be cleaned up quite quickly.
 

stuu

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It’s not a big deal. Graffiti is commonplace in Europe. Spain and Italy have heavily graffitied fleets

Those trains run on time, are cheaper and amazingly are photographed and entirely unaffected by it. Nobody is championing graffiti

Suggesting sharing the images is supporting it is utter banal nonsense, a typical backward British prim and proper attitude. It’s a train…it got graffitied…it’ll still open its doors and still welcome passengers.

Glad to see more arriving. Less knicker cliniching needed
Absolutely disagree with every word. Trains in Italy covered in graffiti give the impression no one cares. Ask Italians, they will say the same

Sharing images publicises their actions, which is what they want
 

Paul_10

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24 Feb 2011
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865
Since returning to service after the door fiasco, only the T121 and T102 weekday diagrams have been covered by 555s. T123, T125 and T104 have been metrocars, and no 555s have ran passenger service the past couple weekends to my knowledge. Only exception was T111 and T133 on BH Monday, which ran as 555s. My understanding is that, while Nexus and Stadler have agreed on a software fix, it has not actually been implemented yet. So, for now, the temporary fix is to just have 2 members of the staff in the driver's cab at all times. Of course, this means more drivers are busy at a time, so fewer diagrams are able to be covered.

I wonder how long it will take for it to be implemented? They have publicly said it won't affect the rollout programme but it won't be a good look too see so many shiny new metrocars sitting around at the depot.

Out of interest, which units have not yet entered passenger service? To my knowledge I can think of 001, 009, 010, 011, 012 and 014 but maybe there is more than that?
 

Fragezeichnen

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It was likely either Latchmere or Wembley. The units had extended stops at both locations and both are known hotspots.

I’m sure I’ve seen one of those tags on a Metrocar before… :s
I was in Northeast Switzerland at the weekend and there were Metro units parked all over the place in random industrial sidings. Some of them had grafitti on already.
 

norbitonflyer

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Absolutely disagree with every word. Trains in Italy covered in graffiti give the impression no one cares. Ask Italians, they will say the same

Sharing images publicises their actions, which is what they want
Train I was on last year in the italian Alps had graffiti covering the windows, which meant we were denied a view of the scenery.

That was not the only suggestion that no-one cared though - we were given three different answers to whether, and where, the train was going to terminate short, and when it did the single replacement bus provided to complete the journey was only able to take about 25% of the passengers needing it.
 

hacman

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22 Jul 2011
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I do hope with these new units, the bodywork can cope better with graffiti attacks than the current fleet where evidence of graffiti removal on some trains have certainly left them a bit battered.

I just feel sorry for the staff who has to constantly wash it off and as I mentioned previously, I just hope the metal on this new fleet will be better quality and won't show as obvious as it does on the old fleet.

The issue with this is the paint and any coatings applied rather than the metal.

The crux of the problem is that paint (whether sold for the purposes of this "art" or just generally available) is designed to adhere really well with no special preparation or such. Paint companies pride themselves on producing better and better paint formulas to this end, as for legitimate uses it is a real selling point. This means that harsher chemical treatments or simply more good old-fashioned scrubbing must be used to remove any graffiti, which increases the chances of damage to the vehicle's actual paintwork.

Whilst there are coatings and treatments that can be applied over a vehicle's livery paintwork, they are expensive and only so effective, so at some point you just have to weigh up the cost of accepting the damage and repainting every now and then. Such treatments are very much a double-edged sword too, as if they manage to protect the paintwork, they'll make the process of washing grafiti off super easy without any damage - but if the grafiti paint manages to penetrate the coating to the extent that a re-paint is needed, the job becomes much more time consuming and complicated due to the need to strip the coating and re-apply it.

It absolutely sucks for the staff who have to deal with this, and to Nexus credit they're generally VERY good at keeping the fleet free of graffiti, even if not the most well presented. Having just spent a weekend in Rome, it was immediately noticeable how much less "cared for" the Metro there feels in this regard, and I can say the same about a number of other places I've been.
 

hopperelec

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I wonder how long it will take for it to be implemented? They have publicly said it won't affect the rollout programme but it won't be a good look too see so many shiny new metrocars sitting around at the depot.

Out of interest, which units have not yet entered passenger service? To my knowledge I can think of 001, 009, 010, 011, 012 and 014 but maybe there is more than that?
Excluding units which haven't even been delivered yet: 001, 006, 007, 008, 009, 010, 011, 012, 013 and 014
 

Paul_10

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Excluding units which haven't even been delivered yet: 001, 006, 007, 008, 009, 010, 011, 012, 013 and 014

Quite a lot of trains there, some that has been in the region for a long time!

Im also assuming so far this month, a new diagram has not transferred to a 555? I know 125 was the last one to transfer but that was last month?
 

rg177

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Quite a lot of trains there, some that has been in the region for a long time!

Im also assuming so far this month, a new diagram has not transferred to a 555? I know 125 was the last one to transfer but that was last month?
The software update for the 555s should have gone live today, so it'll then take a short time to ramp back up to where we were (102, 104, 121, 123 and 125).
 

norbitonflyer

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The software update for the 555s should have gone live today, so it'll then take a short time to ramp back up to where we were (102, 104, 121, 123 and 125).
I've lost track of where we reached on introduction before the door problems. Last time I looked there were only two diagrams - when did the other three start?

I hope to go up to sample these and the Northumberland Line soon - but want to be sure of a reasonable chance of getting one: espcially since LNER's fares policy makes it impossible to just hang around until one turns up.
 

MetroTyler

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I've lost track of where we reached on introduction before the door problems. Last time I looked there were only two diagrams - when did the other three start?

I hope to go up to sample these and the Northumberland Line soon - but want to be sure of a reasonable chance of getting one: espcially since LNER's fares policy makes it impossible to just hang around until one turns up.
From what I've got logged down, my understanding is 555 first ran these diagrams on these dates:

T121 - December 19th 2024
T102 - February 18th 2025
T123 - March 3rd 2025
T104 - March 25th 2025
T125 - April 7th 2025
 

hondafan1999

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From what I've got logged down, my understanding is 555 first ran these diagrams on these dates:

T121 - December 19th 2024
T102 - February 18th 2025
T123 - March 3rd 2025
T104 - March 25th 2025
T125 - April 7th 2025
Why are they alternating train running numbers? Is it not easier for a new unit to rescue a new unit if it was directly behind?
 

The exile

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I wonder how much Stadler would charge to remove the platform number though, I must be in the wrong sector as this is something I'd do free for a client
If Stadler are charging for altering a display to show what it should do for the benefit of the travelling public, then the contract is bad. They should be being charged for every single instance where the most passenger friendly, accurate information is not displayed.
 

Roger B

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If Stadler are charging for altering a display to show what it should do for the benefit of the travelling public, then the contract is bad. They should be being charged for every single instance where the most passenger friendly, accurate information is not displayed.
That depends on why the correct / most passenger friendly information isn't being displayed.
If the units are displaying the information as specified to Stadler, then Stadler are fulfilling their contract whether the information is correct or not. Stadler can hardly be penalised (eg by not being reimbursed for rework) if they delivered per the contract / specifications supplied.
I would hope that they specification included the ability of operators to maintain and change the information displayed themselves (eg to cater for new stations / station renamings), rather than having to request the manufacturer to do so.
 

MetroTyler

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If Stadler are charging for altering a display to show what it should do for the benefit of the travelling public, then the contract is bad. They should be being charged for every single instance where the most passenger friendly, accurate information is not displayed.
I think they charge for pretty much any software update that customises it. And from what I've been told, they charge a hefty expense.
 

35B

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I think they charge for pretty much any software update that customises it. And from what I've been told, they charge a hefty expense.
And if they didn't charge per change, you can bet that there would be a premium on the overall contract price to cover the costs of changes at will. That would be jacked up because they would assume, not unreasonably, that a customer will want to make more "free" changes than if the changes have to be paid for.

I've no idea what the price per change would be, but I'd also be careful about saying "it's a hefty expense" without thinking about the cost of making (including testing) that change. If their staff are paid an average of £50k (low in the IT industry), then a piece of work requiring 10 days of effort would cost over £2k simply on salary costs, before any other costs of employment or corporate overheads.
 

hacman

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If Stadler are charging for altering a display to show what it should do for the benefit of the travelling public, then the contract is bad. They should be being charged for every single instance where the most passenger friendly, accurate information is not displayed.

That depends on why the correct / most passenger friendly information isn't being displayed.
If the units are displaying the information as specified to Stadler, then Stadler are fulfilling their contract whether the information is correct or not. Stadler can hardly be penalised (eg by not being reimbursed for rework) if they delivered per the contract / specifications supplied.
I would hope that they specification included the ability of operators to maintain and change the information displayed themselves (eg to cater for new stations / station renamings), rather than having to request the manufacturer to do so.

I think they charge for pretty much any software update that customises it. And from what I've been told, they charge a hefty expense.

This is entirely normal for this sort of contract. Having worked on PIS and on-train WiFi and telematics projects in the past, the spec is agreed at the time of order, and anything else is considered a variation order (VO) and not covered under the O&M contract. I've yet to see a solution in the market where the vehicle operator can make changes themselves beyond what is supplied via the data feed - these systems are the manufacturer's IP, and are closed-source. Often, it goes beyond this, and the system is actually licensed and will stop working if the operator ends the service contract with the provider.

And if they didn't charge per change, you can bet that there would be a premium on the overall contract price to cover the costs of changes at will. That would be jacked up because they would assume, not unreasonably, that a customer will want to make more "free" changes than if the changes have to be paid for.

I've no idea what the price per change would be, but I'd also be careful about saying "it's a hefty expense" without thinking about the cost of making (including testing) that change. If their staff are paid an average of £50k (low in the IT industry), then a piece of work requiring 10 days of effort would cost over £2k simply on salary costs, before any other costs of employment or corporate overheads.

This is exactly how it works - as the saying goes "gass, grass or ass - nobody rides for free". £50k for the level of developer and QA resource for something like a PIS layout change is about right, depending on the market the employee sits in, but it's worth remembering that the employee's gross salary is not how these things are costed.

The employee has overheads beyond their gross compensation, including employer tax/insurance liabilities, admin costs (HR, etc), office space, hardware, licenses and more. Then you have to account for the fact that when the employee is working on one thing, they can't do another - also known as opportunity cost.

As such, most changes are handled by way of the client being able to alter the data feed that the PIS is fed with, but obviously, if the presentation layer templating needs changing, it has to be done as a VO. No provider of such services includes these changes for free - they are either costed into the overall contract with a very finite number of revisions permitted, or chargeable.

It's also worth noting that VOs usually have no SLA/OLA attached to them either, so they get completed on a "when ready" basis.
 

35B

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This is exactly how it works - as the saying goes "gass, grass or ass - nobody rides for free". £50k for the level of developer and QA resource for something like a PIS layout change is about right, depending on the market the employee sits in, but it's worth remembering that the employee's gross salary is not how these things are costed.

The employee has overheads beyond their gross compensation, including employer tax/insurance liabilities, admin costs (HR, etc), office space, hardware, licenses and more. Then you have to account for the fact that when the employee is working on one thing, they can't do another - also known as opportunity cost.

As such, most changes are handled by way of the client being able to alter the data feed that the PIS is fed with, but obviously, if the presentation layer templating needs changing, it has to be done as a VO. No provider of such services includes these changes for free - they are either costed into the overall contract with a very finite number of revisions permitted, or chargeable.

It's also worth noting that VOs usually have no SLA/OLA attached to them either, so they get completed on a "when ready" basis.
I used those numbers to demonstrate how the charges mount up for even a trivial change on the most favourable set of assumptions - and that just because software is "invisible" does not mean that it can be produced for free.
 

hondafan1999

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And if they didn't charge per change, you can bet that there would be a premium on the overall contract price to cover the costs of changes at will. That would be jacked up because they would assume, not unreasonably, that a customer will want to make more "free" changes than if the changes have to be paid for.

I've no idea what the price per change would be, but I'd also be careful about saying "it's a hefty expense" without thinking about the cost of making (including testing) that change. If their staff are paid an average of £50k (low in the IT industry), then a piece of work requiring 10 days of effort would cost over £2k simply on salary costs, before any other costs of employment or corporate overheads.
There is absolutely 0 chance that a visual change as mentioned above regarding the PIS would take 10 days. I do very similar work and I could do it in an hour or so, it's a simple visual change, not backend change
 

35B

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There is absolutely 0 chance that a visual change as mentioned above regarding the PIS would take 10 days. I do very similar work and I could do it in an hour or so, it's a simple visual change, not backend change
That may be - I don't know the technology or the other requirements that need to be met before deployment. The point was to illustrate cost build up, and why calling changes "expensive" often misses the point.

Working in the IT industry, and dealing with estimates and pricing, I will also observe that a frequent error is that developers say "it will take X" and the other costs of the change (test, deployment, documentation where applicable) get overlooked.
 

hopperelec

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And if they didn't charge per change, you can bet that there would be a premium on the overall contract price to cover the costs of changes at will. That would be jacked up because they would assume, not unreasonably, that a customer will want to make more "free" changes than if the changes have to be paid for.

I've no idea what the price per change would be, but I'd also be careful about saying "it's a hefty expense" without thinking about the cost of making (including testing) that change. If their staff are paid an average of £50k (low in the IT industry), then a piece of work requiring 10 days of effort would cost over £2k simply on salary costs, before any other costs of employment or corporate overheads.
I was with Tyler when we were told by a Nexus employee that it was a heft expense, and the change in question was changing the font on the display. As a software developer myself, I'd sure hope that their software isn't such a mess that it would take 10 days of effort to implement and test a change to the font! Of course, whether such a change is necessary is another question, but just mentioning this as a bit of context for where "a hefty expense" is coming from. Changing the text on the bottom right of the screen I can imagine being slightly more difficult, depending on how it's implemented, but as someone else has mentioned, it's still unlikely to take as long as 10 days.
 

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