UK face coverings discussion

[DB]

Same with railway staff. Although exempt by law, some companies appear to be requesting staff to wear them "in order to set an example".

Fortunately there's plenty of good reasons why staff cannot wear them, especially when performing safety-critical tasks, and there's enough staff prepared not to entertain this nonsense, that there's not a lot that can practically be done. Make me wear a mask and trains won't run, end of.

Minds to tend to be focussed when it's suggested that in order to use masks safely and in accordance with PHE guidance it would be necessary to issue something like 10-20 masks per shift, per person!

Rail staff will probably be able to take that approach (rightly) because the employer can't easily replace them. For shop workers it could be much more difficult to resist the pressure if their employer decides that all staff 'need' to wear masks.

 

[bramling]

I do. I have a problem because I believe that, as a person untrained in the use of PPE (and certain to remain that way) I'm quite sure that wearing a face covering puts me more at risk of infection than if I didn't wear one. Virtually every person you see wearing a mask or other form of covering fiddles with it, removes and replaces it, has it hanging round their chin or from one ear, all whilst they are out in shops and on buses touching possibly infected surfaces. Try as I may, I'm little different. I'm certainly not wearing one where it is not required; I often pop in to my local pub for some breakfast or a coffee whilst I'm out so it has to be removed then. I short I'm no different to anybody else when wearing something which I've not been trained to wear and handle properly. One thing I have been very careful about since this fiasco began was not to touch my face whilst out. I was almost religious with it because it seemed quite a sensible thing to ensure and fairly east to achieve (though during the colder weather there was the temptation when my eyes watered). Now I cannot do that.

I am on the point of abandoning masks because I used to feel quite comfortable going out and about but now I don't. I travel on buses and trains and I go into shops. During those activities I touch my face covering, remove it and replace it. It's not a good idea at all. In short, I consider (along with the Deputy Chief Medical Officer, Jenny Harries) that the risk to me in wearing one is far greater than the risk to anybody else by my not doing so and that's my call. If challenged I shall simply say I have an exemption. If I face a fixed penalty I shall decline to pay it and since I believe it is incumbent on the prosecution to prove I do not have an exemption rather than for me to prove that I have, I'll see them in court.

Just seen a classic on Sky News. Reporter in a store wearing mask, then making the point that they’re not required in in-store cafes he takes his mask off and scrunches it up in his hand, before saying “then when I step out of here I will have to put it back on again”. Wasn’t sure whether to scream or cry.

Why on earth are we having to suffer this sheer nonsense?

Meanwhile, BJ gave a visibly disheveled answer to a question about his future as prime minister. Think he knows deep down that the game is up. He’s now just going for anything as a damage limitation exercise IMO.

 

[bramling]

Rail staff will probably be able to take that approach (rightly) because the employer can't easily replace them. For shop workers it could be much more difficult to resist the pressure if their employer decides that all staff 'need' to wear masks.

Absolutely. A rather sad state of affairs, and I feel very much for shop staff (particularly those in supermarkets) who have already had a difficult few months - again avoidably so to a large extent.

 

[jtuk]

Absolutely. A rather sad state of affairs, and I feel very much for shop staff (particularly those in supermarkets) who have already had a difficult few months - again avoidably so to a large extent.

I'll feel for them even more once their businesses go bust and they lose their jobs if this ridiculous state of affairs is allowed to go on for any significant period of time (which sadly it looks like it will)

 

[DB]

I'll feel for them even more once their businesses go bust and they lose their jobs if this ridiculous state of affairs is allowed to go on for any significant period of time (which sadly it looks like it will)

That's more likely to affect small shops, unfortunately.

I've been trying to use them, but regrettably it'll now be back to once a week at Tesco, where I can get everything. I simply don't want the hassle of having the mask argument in multiple shops.

 

[DB]

Just seen a classic on Sky News. Reporter in a store wearing mask, then making the point that they’re not required in in-store cafes he takes his mask off and scrunches it up in his hand, before saying “then when I step out of here I will have to put it back on again”. Wasn’t sure whether to scream or cry.

I hope he followed recommended practice and sanitised his hands before removing it (and putting it back on)?!

 

[bramling]

That's more likely to affect small shops, unfortunately.

I've been trying to use them, but regrettably it'll now be back to once a week at Tesco, where I can get everything. I simply don't want the hassle of having the mask argument in multiple shops.

Yes and the problem is that shops are to some extent damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Those who offer online are probably fine, but of course their store-based staff most certainly aren’t.

Don’t be seen enforcing masks and risk being pilloried on social media.

 

[jtuk]

That's more likely to affect small shops, unfortunately.

I've been trying to use them, but regrettably it'll now be back to once a week at Tesco, where I can get everything. I simply don't want the hassle of having the mask argument in multiple shops.

While the likes of Tesco won't go bust, if there's a significant enough shift to online and/or reduced visits then management aren't going to keep paying people to twiddle their thumbs on the checkouts. Given that it seems like a large chain goes into administration every other month, it's not unreasonable to think this won't just affect small shops, it'll affect everything

 

[DB]

While the likes of Tesco won't go bust, if there's a significant enough shift to online and/or reduced visits then management aren't going to keep paying people to twiddle their thumbs on the checkouts. Given that it seems like a large chain goes into administration every other month, it's not unreasonable to think this won't just affect small shops, it'll affect everything

I don't disagree - but the likes of Tesco are in a far better position to weather the storm than some little shop employing three people - especially given the hard time of it such shops have already had over the past few months.

In terms of bigger businesses, those most at risk surely have to be in the leisure / hospitality industry.

 

[AdamWW]

I do. I have a problem because I believe that, as a person untrained in the use of PPE (and certain to remain that way) I'm quite sure that wearing a face covering puts me more at risk of infection than if I didn't wear one.

OK playing devil's advocate a bit here because I think there's a lot to be said for the idea that using masks wrongly is a bad thing, but...

Much has been made of the lack of concrete evidence as to the gains from face coverings.

So far as I know we also don't know to what extent transmission from touching infected surfaces is actually a concern - there's a big difference between detecting bits of coronavirus RNA on a surface and there being something on it which will infect you.

So I make the claim that we don't really know if the potential risks of fiddling with a mask outweigh the potential gains from wearing one.

Or can someone convincingly argue otherwise?

 

[Nicholas Lewis]

CityAm are reporting that TfL have stopped 33,000 people for not wearing masks:

AMP and Axa offer £8.2bn in a second bid for Axa’s Asian unit - CityAM

AUSTRALIAN wealth manager AMP launched a fresh £8.15bn bid for Axa Asia Pacific Holdings yesterday in a joint deal with French parent Axa, a year after its original approach. The move comes after rival bidder National Australia Bank pulled out of a deal to buy Axa’a Asian unit after the...

www.cityam.com

Of those, 109 received fixed penalties.

Sorry I can't quote the article.

Latest face covering rules include enclosed transport hubs which i presume means the underground stations are now mandatory but open stations aren't.

 

[DB]

Or can someone convincingly argue otherwise?

Not sure about convincingly (without evidence), but it seems to be generally accepted that transfering pathogens is more likely by physical touch than simply through the air.

 

[Yew]

A good start would be for people to start not using social media.

Not using one of the main forms of communication to your friends would be a pretty good start down the road to suicide..

 

[DB]

Not using one of the main forms of communication to your friends would be a pretty good start down the road to suicide..

Some people may think that! Some of us don't use it at all, apart from a small number of particular-interest forums such as this one (I do not have an account on Facebook/Twitter/Instagram, etc).

 

[Gostav]

Today in the Morrison of Bolton about over 90% of people wear masks.

 

[Yew]

Yes and the problem is that shops are to some extent damned if they do and damned if they don’t. Those who offer online are probably fine, but of course their store-based staff most certainly aren’t.

If I were a small shop, I'd make a point of offering kerbside pick up

 

[Skymonster]

Local shop this afternoon that I’ve used and spent money in consistently (most days) throughout this:

Owner (as I walked in): please can you put on a mask
Me: I will do if you do too
Owner: I don’t have to
Me: You come into contact with far more people than I do every day, so you not wearing a mask is a bigger risk to me than I am to you if I don’t wear a mask
Owner: You are required to wear a mask
Me: I am not required to spend my money here. I would willingly wear a mask if you do too, but it seems like you won’t. So this is the last time I will come in here.

And I won’t go back - ever. Sorry shopkeepers, but it works both ways if it’s related to your health and the health of your customers.

 

[Journeyman]

Local shop this afternoon that I’ve used and spent money in consistently (most days) throughout this:

Owner (as I walked in): please can you put on a mask
Me: I will do if you do too
Owner: I don’t have to
Me: You come into contact with far more people than I do every day, so you not wearing a mask is a bigger risk to me than I am to you if I don’t wear a mask
Owner: You are required to wear a mask
Me: I am not required to spend my money here. I would willingly wear a mask if you do, but it seems like you won’t. So this is the last time I will come in here.

And I won’t go back - ever. Sorry shopkeepers, but it works both ways if it’s related to your health and the health of your customers.

Sorry, but in my view that puts you in the category of being a dick. For some stupid reason, the law exempts the owner. It doesn't exempt you. It's idiotic, yes, and I disagree with it completely, but I can't be bothered arguing over it. Why bother?

 

[Darandio]

Local shop this afternoon that I’ve used and spent money in consistently (most days) throughout this:

Owner (as I walked in): please can you put on a mask
Me: I will do if you do too
Owner: I don’t have to
Me: You come into contact with far more people than I do every day, so you not wearing a mask is a bigger risk to me than I am to you if I don’t wear a mask
Owner: You are required to wear a mask
Me: I am not required to spend my money here. I would willingly wear a mask if you do too, but it seems like you won’t. So this is the last time I will come in here.

And I won’t go back - ever. Sorry shopkeepers, but it works both ways if it’s related to your health and the health of your customers.

How big of you.

 

[Skymonster]

Sorry, but in my view that puts you in the category of being a dick. For some stupid reason, the law exempts the owner. It doesn't exempt you. It's idiotic, yes, and I disagree with it completely, but I can't be bothered arguing over it. Why bother?

If the rules are designed to reduce risk, every source of risk must be addressed to the same standard. I’m fed up with this impression that is being created that customers are some how dirty virus carriers and yet shop workers (and railway staff for that matter) are not. You are welcome to regard me as a dick. I feel that the regulations should be applied equally. I will never spend money in that shop again. If other customers take the same approach and he goes bust, it’s his own fault.

 

[DB]

Local shop this afternoon that I’ve used and spent money in consistently (most days) throughout this:

Owner (as I walked in): please can you put on a mask
Me: I will do if you do too
be
Me: You come into contact with far more people than I do every day, so you not wearing a mask is a bigger risk to me than I am to you if I don’t wear a mask
Owner: You are required to wear a mask
Me: I am not required to spend my money here. I would willingly wear a mask if you do too, but it seems like you won’t. So this is the last time I will come in here.

And I won’t go back - ever. Sorry shopkeepers, but it works both ways if it’s related to your health and the health of your customers.

I do have some sympathy for the shopkeeper here - it's not their fault that this law has been brought it.

However, they aren't expected to be responsible for enforcement, so they can choose not to challenge customers if they wish.

 

[Yew]

How big of you.

It's a buyers market!

 

[Journeyman]

If the rules are designed to reduce risk, every source of risk must be addressed to the same standard. I’m fed up with this impression that is being created that customers are some how dirty and yet shop workers (and railway staff for that matter are not). You are welcome to regard me as a dick. I feel that the regulations should be applied equally. I will never spend money in that shop again.

Look, you and I both know this stuff is the absolute height of idiocy, and potentially makes things worse, but it's not his fault. Was he behind a perspex screen? Does he have an exemption? Everything about compulsory masks seems wrong to me, but making a scene and storming out in a huff solves absolutely nothing.

I use a scarf when I'm in shops. It's a colossal pain, but the poor sods who work in retail didn't invent this nonsense, so there's absolutely no way I'm going to make their lives harder.

 

[Skymonster]

How big of you.

Remember I was not refusing to wear a mask. All I was doing was asking the owner to treat me with the same respect he is demanding of me.

 

[Journeyman]

Remember I was not refusing to wear a mask. All I was doing was asking the owner to treat me with the same respect he is demanding of me.

I still think you were being a dick. The law is utterly stupid, but the poor guy is probably worried about the implications of being seen not to be enforcing it. It's extremely vague, and he has to juggle the needs and concerns of a lot of people. He's also in there for a lot longer than you were.

Save the anger for the people that rushed this idiocy through parliament, not the ones who have to try and walk a difficult tightrope during a time of huge financial uncertainty. Sounds to me like you've got bit of a fragile ego.

 

[Skymonster]

Was he behind a perspex screen? Does he have an exemption?

No Perspex screen.
No idea. He didn’t ask me if I have an exemption either.

As I said, it’s a two way street. As far as I’m concerned he is far more of a risk to me than I am to him. He can hide behind the regulations, you can support him on that basis, but that doesn’t change the risk.

I won’t spend any more money there. Period.

 

[Journeyman]

No Perspex screen.
No idea. He didn’t ask me if I have an exemption either.

As I said, it’s a two way street. As far as I’m concerned he is far more of a risk to me than I am to him. He can hide behind the regulations, you can support him on that basis, but that doesn’t change the risk.

I won’t spend any more money there. Period.

Well, as others have said, aren't you the big man?

 

[DB]

No Perspex screen.
No idea. He didn’t ask me if I have an exemption either.

As I said, it’s a two way street. As far as I’m concerned he is far more of a risk to me than I am to him. He can hide behind the regulations, you can support him on that basis, but that doesn’t change the risk.

I won’t spend any more money there. Period.

Well, not spending money thereis of course your choice but I do think you are rather over-reacting.

As suggested above, best to save the criticism for those who deserve it rather than those placed in a difficult position over which they have no control.

 

[Darandio]

Remember I was not refusing to wear a mask. All I was doing was asking the owner to treat me with the same respect he is demanding of me.

They don't have to, you do (exemptions aside!) so your exchange was silly. You don't even know if the member of staff had an exemption themselves so resorted to a method of vigilantism that the majority of this forum has been vehemently against. Your exchange is no different than asking a fellow customer.

It's a stupid situation and it really sucks but being awkward to staff doesn't make it easier for anyone.

 

[45107]

Remember I was not refusing to wear a mask. All I was doing was asking the owner to treat me with the same respect he is demanding of me.

He was asking you to abide by the law. Being a shop keeper is an exemption to the law.