UK Rail Passenger Numbers Discussion

[Adrian1980uk]

In addition to the new trains being more comfortable and offering more capacity, the service wasn't exactly reliable at the end of the old fleet, as there were many days were there were simply not enough trains in working order - so the boost in reliability provided by the 755s undoubtedly also contributed to making the service more attractive

That is the key, being able to turn up at the station and get on the train in comfort... Not worrying if it's going to turn up or you're going to get stuck somewhere.

 

[LowLevel]

Has the increased patronage on the Sheringham line got anything to do with more efficient ticket checking? The passenger figures come from ticket sales (as far as I'm aware, but happy to be corrected) and with the method of working on the line the guards have more time for ticket checking, I noticed this when I went to Sheringham last year that the guards were incredibly proactive.

They always were. They even had an agreement on rural routes that the driver would do the announcements so the guard didn't have to go back to the back cab.

 

[dk1]

They always were. They even had an agreement on rural routes that the driver would do the announcements so the guard didn't have to go back to the back cab.

Most drivers did announcements at all but connectional & terminating stations but door control has only been since the introduction of the Stadler fleet.

 

[railfan99]

That is the key, being able to turn up at the station and get on the train in comfort... Not worrying if it's going to turn up or you're going to get stuck somewhere.

The other key is 'frequency' - as we say in my city, 'frequency is freedom' - so if both improve, it encourages passengers who might otherwise driive, or not travel at all, to use rail.

Whatever, very pleasing for the Sheringham line's future.

With the growth in leisure travel, provided rural towns and villages aren't suffering population loss, this positivity could occur elsewhere.

 

[RPI]

Most drivers did announcements at all but connectional & terminating stations but door control has only been since the introduction of the Stadler fleet.

You'd be able to answer this, with the 156's were the guards only able to operate doors from the rear? That's another factor with revenue collection and passenger numbers, the GWR 150's for example have door controls in the saloon doors as well as the crew doors, but when some of the GWR units got transferred to Northern these controls were taken out of use.

 

[dk1]

You'd be able to answer this, with the 156's were the guards only able to operate doors from the rear? That's another factor with revenue collection and passenger numbers, the GWR 150's for example have door controls in the saloon doors as well as the crew doors, but when some of the GWR units got transferred to Northern these controls were taken out of use.

No, both ends had DKS.

 

[Magdalia]

Has the increased patronage on the Sheringham line got anything to do with more efficient ticket checking? The passenger figures come from ticket sales (as far as I'm aware, but happy to be corrected) and with the method of working on the line the guards have more time for ticket checking, I noticed this when I went to Sheringham last year that the guards were incredibly proactive.

On rural East Anglian branch lines guards selling and checking tickets is something that has gone on for more than half a century, going right back to Paytrains in the 1960s.

 

[Meerkat]

On rural East Anglian branch lines guards selling and checking tickets is something that has gone on for more than half a century, going right back to Paytrains in the 1960s.

I think the point here is whether they now have time to do it more thoroughly.
When we got the train from West Runton to Norwich on family holiday back in the early 80's my Dad asked the guard for returns and replied that they didn't do returns....because they might have been closed down by the time we wanted to come back

 

[railfan99]

On rural East Anglian branch lines guards selling and checking tickets is something that has gone on for more than half a century, going right back to Paytrains in the 1960s.

On the up on Tu 4 October 2022, the 1247 hours from Sheringham to Norwich, my car being 981338, the conductor/guard sold an adult single to a man sitting opposite me, travelling from Cromer to Gunton, a 10 minute trip, for GBP3.80.

Efficient.

 

[dk1]

You'd be able to answer this, with the 156's were the guards only able to operate doors from the rear? That's another factor with revenue collection and passenger numbers, the GWR 150's for example have door controls in the saloon doors as well as the crew doors, but when some of the GWR units got transferred to Northern these controls were taken out of use.

Wessex Trains had those put near the saloon passenger doors on those 150s. On their 156s NXEA had the DKS moved from the cab to the back wall to prevent guards entering the leading driving cab.

On rural East Anglian branch lines guards selling and checking tickets is something that has gone on for more than half a century, going right back to Paytrains in the 1960s.

Still got some of those splendid posters.

 

[Sleepy]

There is also a regular staff presence at Norwich inside the Gateline selling tickets to those missed due to busy service / defective guard's machine / run out of change etc. The sit and stare out the window types probably just pay on board now too rather than being delayed exiting the the station (a regular efficent RPI presence have started asking questions of regular ticketless arrivals too). Go back 6 - 8 years and rarely any ticket selling took place inside the barriers.

 

[RPI]

Wessex Trains had those put near the saloon passenger doors on those 150s. On their 156s NXEA had the DKS moved from the cab to the back wall to prevent guards entering the leading driving cab.


Still got some of those splendid posters.

Yes Wessex and Wales & Borders started that, FGW and then GWR also fitted them to the 150/1's that have since departed, also fitted to 150202 (remember that one lol) and 216 which came from London Midland and 207 which came from Northern.

There were some recent DfT ticketless travel surveys where a lot of TOC's have been hauled over the coals, which is relevant as ticketless travellers don't necessarily get counted in the footfall figures

 

[dk1]

There were some recent DfT ticketless travel surveys where a lot of TOC's have been hauled over the coals, which is relevant as ticketless travellers don't necessarily get counted in the footfall figures

Some TOCs & guards are truly shocking. Not sure how it's been allowed to get as bad as it has. Maybe some are a hangover from the pandemic or they had let standards slip before then.

 

[ScotGG]

Southeastern Metro has been atrocious for years for example. Probably 20 at least. DOO, on train checks very very rare and most stations barely staffed without gates or open

 

[samulih]

Is this ticketless travel really that big issue or is it just big issue for forum as it with most of the stuff here like benches or toilet.

 

[dk1]

Is this ticketless travel really that big issue or is it just big issue for forum as it with most of the stuff here like benches or toilet.

If you travel around the country on different operators you'll see good and bad.

 

[43066]

Is this ticketless travel really that big issue or is it just big issue for forum as it with most of the stuff here like benches or toilet.

It’s definitely a significant issue on (for example) large parts of the Southeastern and Thameslink network, which are DOO with no visible staff presence on board, and with many stations ungated.

 

[dk1]

It’s definitely a significant issue on (for example) large parts of the Southeastern and Thameslink network, which are DOO with no visible staff presence on board, and with many stations ungated.

There was always an assumption that the GE outer suburban services had high levels of fare evasion due to us Anglia boys & girls only working with guards. It may be different on the extreme branch DOO services but the RPIs are quite heavy handed on the main line and even those I wrongly assumed were evading their fare all had valid tickets.

 

[samulih]

^As I was saying, is it a real issue or "feels" issue. In New York metro there was 601 fare evasion arrest in 4th quarter of -22.... So with all those "preventions" like gates and felony arrests people still do it, so having guards might not mean that much....

 

[RPI]

^As I was saying, is it a real issue or "feels" issue. In New York metro there was 601 fare evasion arrest in 4th quarter of -22.... So with all those "preventions" like gates and felony arrests people still do it, so having guards might not mean that much....

It can be yes, but you only have to look at lockdown, a couple of months (in our case down here anyway, other places were longer) of no ticket checks or gatelines and people very quickly fall back into old habits.

 

[43066]

^As I was saying, is it a real issue or "feels" issue. In New York metro there was 601 fare evasion arrest in 4th quarter of -22.... So with all those "preventions" like gates and felony arrests people still do it, so having guards might not mean that much....

Asking how easy or difficult it is to prevent isn’t the same thing as asking whether it’s a real issue or not. We also aren’t talking about the New York Metro (if people were routinely arrested for fare evasion here I’d love to see the apoplectic reaction of the disputes forum ).

Rail Penalty Fare value reform

www.gov.uk

The Rail Delivery Group (RDG) estimates that in a normal year around £240 million is lost through fare evasion on Great Britain’s railways.

In industry terms a quarter of a billion is more than a “feels” issue (whatever that means). It is a significant sum when you consider that revenue shortfalls of £2-3bn are used by the government to justify service cuts.

 

[RPI]

Asking how easy or difficult it is to prevent isn’t the same thing as asking whether it’s a real issue or not. We also aren’t talking about the New York Metro (if people were routinely arrested for fare evasion here I’d love to see the apoplectic reaction of the disputes forum ).

Rail Penalty Fare value reform

www.gov.uk

In industry terms a quarter of a billion is more than a “feels” issue (whatever that means). It is a significant sum when you consider that revenue shortfalls of £2-3bn are used by the government to justify service cuts.

Also to consider, you can go through a train and everyone have an e ticket, yet if they're not checked and scanned there's potential for massive amounts of refunds, revenue protection has changed, these days its very rarely "no ticket", there's generally a ticket of some description thats being misused, I say that in the context of actual people who are stopped.

And before I get told off by the mods, it is relevant to the thread, if there is a station with a huge short faring problem, then passenger figures aren't being properly recorded.

 

[Krokodil]

Also to consider, you can go through a train and everyone have an e ticket, yet if they're not checked and scanned there's potential for massive amounts of refunds, revenue protection has changed, these days its very rarely "no ticket", there's generally a ticket of some description thats being misused, I say that in the context of actual people who are stopped.

Depends upon the route. Between some pairs of stations I am indeed dealing with fraud that didn't exist before (half of the problem has been the widespread switch from mTickets to eTickets, the latter are wide-open to abuse as an mTicket had to be activated on the day and would disappear at the end, quite a few people try and use an eTicket all month. Between other pairs of stations though, I'm still just having to sell as many as I can in five minutes, and deal with refusals to pay as best as I can (sometimes timetable anomalies work to my advantage, when matey emerges from the toilet and sees his intended destination flash past because he's on the one train that doesn't stop).

And before I get told off by the mods, it is relevant to the thread, if there is a station with a huge short faring problem, then passenger figures aren't being properly recorded.

Installing barriers in certain locations and extending the operating hours of those already in use should boost numbers.

 

[MCSHF007]

Depends upon the route. Between some pairs of stations I am indeed dealing with fraud that didn't exist before (half of the problem has been the widespread switch from mTickets to eTickets, the latter are wide-open to abuse as an mTicket had to be activated on the day and would disappear at the end, quite a few people try and use an eTicket all month. Between other pairs of stations though, I'm still just having to sell as many as I can in five minutes, and deal with refusals to pay as best as I can (sometimes timetable anomalies work to my advantage, when matey emerges from the toilet and sees his intended destination flash past because he's on the one train that doesn't stop).


Installing barriers in certain locations and extending the operating hours of those already in use should boost numbers.

Great work. Always appreciate your posts and your attitude to this problem when at work - many thanks!

 

[railfan99]

Great Ayton on the Whitby line doesn't have huge frequency: a maximum of seven trains each way a day.

But it's another station where total inwards and outwards passenger numbers in 2018-19 pre-COVID-19 (7726) have been exceeded in 2021-22 (8662).

Hardly huge, given just under 12 board on average per day, so not much more than one a train, but good to see smaller stations not inexorably declining.

The major station of Bridlington between Hull and Scarborough had 453,000 boardings or alightings in 2018-19.

In 2021-22, it had 443,000, so it's almost fully recovered.

This is another station that must see a fair number of leisure travellers, so it might be a good fit for the hypothesis that weekend usage is doing quite nicely. Great to see!

 

[squizzler]

Is there an online petition for restoring and expanding rail services over their pre-pandemic commitments or do we have to write to our MPs individually?

 

[JonathanH]

Is there an online petition for restoring and expanding rail services over their pre-pandemic commitments or do we have to write to our MPs individually?

A general request for expanding rail services to an arbitrary historic level on all routes isn't exactly appropriate, as demand genuinely will have changed. The power of MPs to do much is limited, but would be better placed with regard to individual service levels.

 

[philosopher]

Is there an online petition for restoring and expanding rail services over their pre-pandemic commitments or do we have to write to our MPs individually?

The UK government petitions website does not seem to have one. Providing you are UK resident or British citizen there is nothing stopping from creating one on the UK government petitions website though.

 

[squizzler]

A general request for expanding rail services to an arbitrary historic level on all routes isn't exactly appropriate, as demand genuinely will have changed.

Good point. We need an elegant and engaging way of demanding that the resources promised to meet pre-pandemic commitments - infrastructure and service - are delivered, albeit distributed differently according to the current demands.

The UK government petitions website does not seem to have one. Providing you are UK resident or British citizen there is nothing stopping from creating one on the UK government petitions website though.

I think I fail at one of those. Besides my adopted part of Great Britain is Wales where they still preach the gospel of integrated transport, and are pressing ahead with the planned upgrades. I may not be one to take a lead but have previously signed petitions, and can help on the wording for the petition so that it sounds snappy.

The power of MPs to do much is limited, but would be better placed with regard to individual service levels.

I believe popular opinion such as a sufficiently large amount of correspondence on the topic arriving at the MP's office will have an effect - as will belonging to the local Rail User's Group or a national organisation like Railfuture or Campaign for Better Transport.

 

[Krokodil]

Besides my adopted part of Great Britain is Wales where they still preach the gospel of integrated transport

That's a laugh, all talk and no trousers. Connections between buses and trains seem to be almost deliberately timed to miss - even the WAG's own TrawsCymru network fails to connect properly with the trains.

Come to that, the trains aren't exactly well integrated with each other - Liverpool (via Runcorn) services arrive in Chester just in time to see the tail lights of Holyhead and Shrewsbury trains disappear, the second train to Blaenau Ffestiniog departs just before the arrival of the first train from Chester, with the next departure three hours later.