ULEZ Expansion (and being forced into changing cars).

[themeone]

Is anyone else in the same situation? I have a 2012 diesel with many more years life in it, but having to get a new vehicle due to ULEZ expansion.

Are you changing cars ASAP or waiting until the last minute? I know there's talk of legal challenges, but is there any realistic hope of a U turn on this?

 

[Ted633]

I'm in the same situation. Car is reliable and probably has 2 or 3 years still in it, but is over 200k miles so is more-or-less worthless for resale. I'm going to hang on for the time being to see if anything comes from the legal challenges (which I doubt). My car has its MOT in July, so will buy a new car then.

 

[Dr Day]

The Bristol Clean Air Zone version is certainly prompting some colleagues to change their car, others are simply making longer journeys to avoid the zone, but as far as I can tell no-one is actively considering switching to public transport (as nothing has changed with regard to its relative attractiveness with respect to the day to day, door to door journeys people actually make).

 

[GS250]

The ULEZ 'rules' seem ridiculous. A colleague has a 2014 Merc E class 2L diesel with an apparently high tech economically geared engine. I have a 2012 Lexus GS with a 2.5 litre V6 petrol first released in 2003 and given bare minimum updates until it's retirement in 2013 or so.

Guess which one is not ULEZ compliant?

 

[Bletchleyite]

The ULEZ 'rules' seem ridiculous. A colleague has a 2014 Merc E class 2L diesel with an apparently high tech economically geared engine. I have a 2012 Lexus GS with a 2.5 litre V6 petrol first released in 2003 and given bare minimum updates until it's retirement in 2013 or so.

Guess which one is not ULEZ compliant?

The one that doesn't emit as many particulates and NOx - the petrol.

It is not about carbon emissions.

 

[birchesgreen]

Yes my brother-in-law in East Laaaaaaahndan has sold his Freelander already, drives an electric Smart Car instead which is a bit of a change!

 

[cactustwirly]

The one that doesn't emit as many particulates and NOx - the petrol.

It is not about carbon emissions.

The diesel is Euro 5 so, will emit the same amount of particulates as a Euro 6...

 

[Bletchleyite]

The diesel is Euro 5 so, will emit the same amount of particulates as a Euro 6...

Euro 6 reduces NOx from Euro 5. It's both of those.

The reduced particulates appears to have come with Euro 5b, so not all Euro 5 cars would comply with that.

 

[RailWonderer]

The ULEZ 'rules' seem ridiculous. A colleague has a 2014 Merc E class 2L diesel with an apparently high tech economically geared engine. I have a 2012 Lexus GS with a 2.5 litre V6 petrol first released in 2003 and given bare minimum updates until it's retirement in 2013 or so.

Guess which one is not ULEZ compliant?

The Merc E220 diesel? I was looking at BMWs from that era and the diesels are not ULEZ but the petrols are. Diesels emit more generally. And I think it's because you want to show us you bought the right car, which you did. That Lexus is a lovely car.

Yes my brother-in-law in East Laaaaaaahndan has sold his Freelander already, drives an electric Smart Car instead which is a bit of a change!

I also know someone from that way (Essex) who traded in his V6 Nissan estate for a Fiat Panda 10 years newer, for the same reason.

 

[Vespa]

It's interesting to see people dumping cars with ULEZ yet there is no realistic public transport options such as park and ride sites outside London, I understand Croydon, Harrow and Hillingdon have refused to sign up to the ULEZ and will refuse planning permission to install enforcement cameras, this will create a big hole in the ULEZ scheme.

 

[Bletchleyite]

It's interesting to see people dumping cars with ULEZ yet there is no realistic public transport options such as park and ride sites outside London

Wha? There are tens if not hundreds of railway stations on the edge of London and near motorway junctions with car parks that can be used as park and rides. It doesn't have to have a P&R sign on it to use it for that. Luton Airport Parkway, Watford Junction.....

Also, part of the ULEZ idea isn't just to get people to stop driving, it's to get them to change their car for a cleaner one.

 

[Vespa]

Wha? There are tens if not hundreds of railway stations on the edge of London and near motorway junctions with car parks that can be used as park and rides. It doesn't have to have a P&R sign on it to use it for that. Luton Airport Parkway, Watford Junction.....

Also, part of the ULEZ idea isn't just to get people to stop driving, it's to get them to change their car for a cleaner one.

I meant buses in the event of a train strike, that said with the Increased cost of cars now, the poor will be hardest hit electric and Euro 6 compliant cars not cheap !

 

[Stewart2887]

Guys. the whole point of this legislation is to make life safer for everyone, and that means eliminating old polluting vehicles. The death of that poor little girl Ella Kissi-Debrah a few years ago has focussed lots of minds. Just because you have a driveable 20-year old diesel doesn't make it acceptable. You can agrue the toss about previous governments "buy low CO2 diesels" but that won't help legal compliance. Things are stricter in Scotland already, coming here soon

 

[Bletchleyite]

I meant buses in the event of a train strike

You don't design your transport network around "what if there's a strike". It causes far too much costly duplication.

that said with the Increased cost of cars now, the poor will be hardest hit electric and Euro 6 compliant cars not cheap !

Euro 4 petrols are allowed. Euro 4 petrol is from 2006, that's 17 years ago. Almost all petrol cars remaining on the road other than classics will be compliant. So it's a case of switching from diesel to petrol if you want a cheap compliant car.

It's maybe more of an issue for those who rely on vans for work, and I do think it needs some sort of assistance scheme for such people, e.g. a subsidised scrappage scheme and potentially a form of underwritten loan for people who need to replace a work van but can't get a loan to do so.

Guys. the whole point of this legislation is to make life safer for everyone, and that means eliminating old polluting vehicles. The death of that poor little girl Ella Kissi-Debrah a few years ago has focussed lots of minds. Just because you have a driveable 20-year old diesel doesn't make it acceptable. You can agrue the toss about previous governments "buy low CO2 diesels" but that won't help legal compliance. Things are stricter in Scotland already, coming here soon

It'll be a ZEZ in time. Just progress.

 

[class68fan]

It'll be a ZEZ in time. Just progress.

Oxford now has.

 

[Vespa]

Euro 4 petrols are allowed. Euro 4 petrol is from 2006, that's 17 years ago. Almost all petrol cars remaining on the road other than classics will be compliant. So it's a case of switching from diesel to petrol if you want a cheap compliant car.

It's maybe more of an issue for those who rely on vans for work, and I do think it needs some sort of assistance scheme for such people, e.g. a subsidised scrappage scheme and potentially a form of underwritten loan for people who need to replace a work van but can't get a loan to do so.

Doesn't help those who listened to the previous government and brought diesel cars, I can't see a scrappage scheme, we're in a recession and money is tight, those affected by the ULEZ are expected to pay out an inflated cost for an overpriced car because of post covid cars shortages

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oxford now has.

A very small one to be fair.

Doesn't help those who listened to the previous government and brought diesel cars, I can't see a scrappage scheme, we're in a recession and money is tight, those affected by the ULEZ are expected to pay out an inflated cost for an overpriced car because of post covid cars shortages

The value of the car you have will be higher too. Most of the country doesn't have a ULEZ and won't for years, so there is still a healthy market for used older diesels.

 

[Vespa]

The value of the car you have will be higher too. Most of the country doesn't have a ULEZ and won't for years, so there is still a healthy market for used older diesels.

Both will be correspondedly high with higher sell price and still higher buy price, not exactly a win win situation, the prevailing view from friends in London is the ULEZ is a vanity revenue raising project by Khan

 

[themeone]

Guys. the whole point of this legislation is to make life safer for everyone, and that means eliminating old polluting vehicles. The death of that poor little girl Ella Kissi-Debrah a few years ago has focussed lots of minds. Just because you have a driveable 20-year old diesel doesn't make it acceptable. You can agrue the toss about previous governments "buy low CO2 diesels" but that won't help legal compliance. Things are stricter in Scotland already, coming here soon

I am very sceptical that this is the reason. It's mostly fairly old cars which fail the ULEZ test. If this was really about clean air, just wait a few years and most of them will be off the road anyway.

I also heard that Sadiq Khan was required to extend the ULEZ as a condition of continued Tfl funding. Can anyone confirm this?

 

[Snow1964]

It's interesting to see people dumping cars with ULEZ yet there is no realistic public transport options such as park and ride sites outside London, I understand Croydon, Harrow and Hillingdon have refused to sign up to the ULEZ and will refuse planning permission to install enforcement cameras, this will create a big hole in the ULEZ scheme.

The cameras were installed before the London wide ULEZ for heavy vehicles (trucks, buses, coaches) went live couple of years ago. It is same cameras on the main roads that are just being extended to more vehicle categories.

I think it was some local infills to catch those not going very far that might have been blocked.

I also heard that Sadiq Khan was required to extend the ULEZ as a condition of continued Tfl funding. Can anyone confirm this?

I believe he tried to muddy the waters by proposing a congestion charge that would apply to cars that were not registered to a London address, a pay to drive into London scheme. This of course upset those who lived just outside the boundary, but who worked or shopped just inside it.

I think the rejection of that led to the ULEZ extension which had been gradually moving forward over about 4 years getting a definite start date.

 

[GS250]

I am very sceptical that this is the reason. It's mostly fairly old cars which fail the ULEZ test. If this was really about clean air, just wait a few years and most of them will be off the road anyway.

I also heard that Sadiq Khan was required to extend the ULEZ as a condition of continued Tfl funding. Can anyone confirm this?

The original ULEZ didn't raise the revenue as expected. However I'd suggest once you start to move further out the ratio of older vehicles starts to increase dramatically. These will be the working class who generally no longer live close to central London.

 

[cactustwirly]

Both will be correspondedly high with higher sell price and still higher buy price, not exactly a win win situation, the prevailing view from friends in London is the ULEZ is a vanity revenue raising project by Khan

Agreed, if it was about emissions then Euro 5 diesels would be compliant. Like most schemes in Europe. They are significantly cleaner than Euro 4 diesels and only produce slightly more NOx than a Euro 6.

There is no scientific justification for the extension of the zone.

 

[Snow1964]

The original ULEZ didn't raise the revenue as expected. However I'd suggest once you start to move further out the ratio of older vehicles starts to increase dramatically. These will be the working class who generally no longer live close to central London.

There is another reason, nearer the centre public transport is much more frequent and goes in multiple directions, and car clubs are more common, so some have dispensed with cars.

The further out you go, these all become less, and it is often difficult to make journeys to just outside London borough boundary (but still within M25) without a car, so having a car is more common.

The policy is not about cutting emissions (nationally), but just doing it locally. As the sold older cars just get moved to other more rural areas, rather than upgraded or scrapped.

As others have said, over time older vehicles get replaced anyway (at about average of 30000-40000 a week), regardless of any ULEZ

 

[GS250]

The policy is not about cutting emissions (nationally), but just doing it locally. As the sold older cars just get moved to other more rural areas, rather than upgraded or scrapped.

As others have said, over time older vehicles get replaced anyway (at about average of 30000-40000 a week), regardless of any ULEZ

I swear all big city older non hybrid executive cars end up in the Highlands. You will usually find plenty of mid 2000s Lexus LS, Honda Legends, VW Phaetons knocking about.

 

[themeone]

When I get the new car I want to also get a degree of future-proofing for when they decide that cars which were ULEZ compliant in 2023 are no longer compliant. Can anyone advise please? Other than getting an electric, which I can't afford.

 

[Bletchleyite]

When I get the new car I want to also get a degree of future-proofing for when they decide that cars which were ULEZ compliant in 2023 are no longer compliant. Can anyone advise please? Other than getting an electric, which I can't afford.

As new a petrol or petrol hybrid as you can afford. Diesel is now very much deprecated.

 

[Mojo]

Doesn't help those who listened to the previous government and brought diesel cars, I can't see a scrappage scheme, we're in a recession and money is tight, those affected by the ULEZ are expected to pay out an inflated cost for an overpriced car because of post covid cars shortages

Given the wait for new cars being experienced by all main manufacturers most people ordering new cars now wouldn't expect to be receiving them before the Ulez extension starts anyway.

 

[birchesgreen]

Given the wait for new cars being experienced by all main manufacturers most people ordering new cars now wouldn't expect to be receiving them before the Ulez extension starts anyway.

Yes quite astonishing how long some are waiting. A relative ordered a Kia Sportage in January (last year), was given May as the initial delivery date. Still waiting.

 

[GS250]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64219939

I see the 'congestion charge' hasn't had the desired impact then. Then again, this was only ever about making money from those who live in the zone anyway. And as I've said, those genuine wealthy types who tend to live in these areas simply don't use public transport.

 

[Bletchleyite]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64219939

I see the 'congestion charge' hasn't had the desired impact then. Then again, this was only ever about making money from those who live in the zone anyway. And as I've said, those genuine wealthy types who tend to live in these areas simply don't use public transport.

The C-charge only impacts the very centre, that article refers to the built up area as a whole.