ULEZ Expansion (and being forced into changing cars).

[GS250]

The C-charge only impacts the very centre, that article refers to the built up area as a whole.

To be fair...the Centre is absolutely gridlocked most times.

 

[Starmill]

The most serious failure of all clean air plan schemes so far is that they've been first and foremost about getting people to change their vehicle to a compliant one, or change their route so that they don't drive within the area. These objectives are ultimately self-defeating.

There has been almost no money for actually persuading people to change mode from any of the schemes! There has been some tinkering such as the zero emission area in Oxford essentially banning combustion vehicles, but that's tiny. There's also been some road layout changes in a few places, but overall there's been no meaningful improvement in the quality, capacity, frequency, or reliability of the bus services which people could use instead of the car. There's hardly been anything even on park and ride.

To be fair...the Centre is absolutely gridlocked most times.

That strongly implies that the charge is too low doesn't it?

 

[Bletchleyite]

That strongly implies that the charge is too low doesn't it?

Central London isn't "absolutely gridlocked most times", that's just false.

There has been almost no money for actually persuading people to change mode from any of the schemes! There has been some tinkering such as the zero emission area in Oxford essentially banning combustion vehicles, but that's tiny. There's also been some road layout changes in a few places, but overall there's been no meaningful improvement in the quality, capacity, frequency, or reliability of the bus services which people could use instead of the car. There's hardly been anything even on park and ride.

Dedicated P&R is a small town thing. Big places have it anyway - a multitude of railway stations with car parks.

 

[Vespa]

Bit of question about the ULEZ while talking to friend who lives in London, he seems to think that you can only get charged once if you enter a zone and you can drive around for days within the zone without being billed per day as the ULEZ don't charge for leaving a zone only for entering.

So what's right ?

 

[Starmill]

Big places have it anyway - a multitude of railway stations with car parks.

Yes, and in regional England it's generally little used because it's rubbish. How many people are seriously going to park at Hazel Grove and get the 192 to the city centre? You can tell it's rubbish because even on train driver strike days the car parks are all still empty. Even Manchester's tram ones aren't attractive enough to most car drivers, look at the awful journey time from Ladywell or Sale Water Park, and frequency is still inadequate.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, and in regional England it's generally little used because it's rubbish. How many people are seriously going to park at Hazel Grove and get the 192 to the city centre?

The 192 is a bus service that really shouldn't exist in a properly integrated system (see that thread). It directly duplicates a railway for pretty much its entire length (though admittedly post HS2 it could do with a few extra local stations).

There's a perfectly decent train service on the other side of the road. Park there and take the train in. Or head for East Didsbury for the tram if you're further south. Yes, it's only 2tph, but it's easy to plan when you leave around the timetable, pretty much every single London commuter that gets to the station by car (and that's most of them, because most local bus services in the Home Counties don't start early enough or finish late enough) does that.

And in Liverpool most Merseyrail stations have free car parks, and some are particularly well designed for that use case (e.g. Maghull North* for Skem).

You can tell it's rubbish because even on train driver strike days the car parks are all still empty. Even Manchester's tram ones aren't attractive enough to most car drivers, look at the awful journey time from Ladywell or Sale Water Park, and frequency is still inadequate.

How's 5tph inadequate?

* Not Headbolt Lane. I think someone probably justified building it in part as a Skem Parkway, but Maghull North works better, it's only just off the motorway with a journey time by car of about 11 minutes from a random Skem estate (I think I used Ashurst).

 

[The Ham]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-64219939

I see the 'congestion charge' hasn't had the desired impact then. Then again, this was only ever about making money from those who live in the zone anyway. And as I've said, those genuine wealthy types who tend to live in these areas simply don't use public transport.

The congestion charge came about 20 year ago, and did see a fall in road use, however since then there's been a growth in the number of cars on the roads (not just in London) and so what had happened is whilst within the congestion zone traffic is likely to be (say) up 5% from before the congestion charge was brought. Whilst in on other areas it's up by about 30%.

As such whilst traffic is given than when we started, it's still a lot lower than it could have otherwise been.

It's part of the reason that we need to have more and more walking, cycling and public transport use, as otherwise if cars could just carry on growing unopposed we'd have reached gridlock by now.

 

[Starmill]

How's 5tph inadequate?

Slow journey time, no timetable, only 5tph? How exactly is that adequate? Metrolink is great compared to the bus but it's still rubbish compared to what could run with the kind of extra cash being spent elsewhere on clean air plans.

 

[Trainbike46]

There has been almost no money for actually persuading people to change mode from any of the schemes! There has been some tinkering such as the zero emission area in Oxford essentially banning combustion vehicles, but that's tiny. There's also been some road layout changes in a few places, but overall there's been no meaningful improvement in the quality, capacity, frequency, or reliability of the bus services which people could use instead of the car. There's hardly been anything even on park and ride.

Are you saying there have been no efforts to improve public transport and cycling in london over the last 10ish years? If so you must be talking about the london in Canada or somethig. Back here in the UK there has been:
- Elizabeth line opening
- Barking riverside extension
- Northern line extension
- Step-free station upgrades
- Stratford-Tottenham Hale-Meridian water improvements
- Loads of cycle lanes across London

And these are just of the top of my head

Obviously not each of these will work for everyone, but there have been quite a few things implemented to make it easier for a range of people to get where they're going without a car

 

[mullinsj08]

Bit of question about the ULEZ while talking to friend who lives in London, he seems to think that you can only get charged once if you enter a zone and you can drive around for days within the zone without being billed per day as the ULEZ don't charge for leaving a zone only for entering.

So what's right ?

Not the case, sadly. You must pay the charge each day you drive within the zone. From the TfL website:

A daily charge runs from midnight to midnight. If you drive within the ULEZ area across two days, for example before midnight and after midnight, you will have to pay two daily charges.

My 2011 BMW 530d isn't ULEZ compliant so there's nothing for it but to get a 2009 BMW X5 (4.8L V8)...Sadiq made me do it!

 

[Trainbike46]

And that is before you even consider that, reducing the number of cars around speeds up bus services, as it is the cars (in most places) that slow down the buses

 

[Bletchleyite]

Slow journey time, no timetable, only 5tph? How exactly is that adequate? Metrolink is great compared to the bus but it's still rubbish compared to what could run with the kind of extra cash being spent elsewhere on clean air plans.

Do clean air plans cost money on a net basis? Surely the income from those choosing to pay the charge should cover their costs? If not, the charge needs to be higher.

 

[Starmill]

There's a perfectly decent train service on the other side of the road.

The train service from Hazel Grove is dreadful. Four car DMUs, all stations, only twice an hour. I'd like to see you rely on it every day.

 

[Bletchleyite]

My 2011 BMW 530d isn't ULEZ compliant so there's nothing for it but to get a 2009 BMW X5 (4.8L V8)...Sadiq made me do it!

While some people may do that to make a point (or e.g. fit a compliant large V8 petrol to their Land Rover Defender), most people won't as that'll drink fuel and it's expensive.

 

[Starmill]

Do clean air plans cost money on a net basis? Surely the income from those choosing to pay the charge should cover their costs? If not, the charge needs to be higher.

Yes. Vastly. Charges cannot be any higher for political reasons. Mainly because everyone who currently drives will have to keep driving, and not short term everyone can get a new vehicle in time, and long term income will be near zero because everyone will divert or upgrade.

This is why I'd support true congestion charging for all motorised vehicles other than buses and trams in all major English city centres, without daft exceptions for EVs. But sadly politically we're miles off that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The train service from Hazel Grove is dreadful. Four car DMUs, all stations, only twice an hour. I'd like to see you rely on it every day.

I'd accept Northern at the moment is a bit rubbish with cancellations etc, and it's annoying they have no decent bi-modes to use the wires (again).

I don't however think 2tph on that line is terrible, and yes, I would use it if I lived there, it's just a not-quite-as-good version of Merseyrail. It could be better, but it's not terrible. Terrible is 0.5tph on the CLC East for example, which might as well just not exist. FWIW for my first 10 years in MK I had a 2bph local bus service and I did use it. I would as an aside hope that HS2 2B could mean it increases to 4tph.

 

[Starmill]

I'd accept Northern at the moment is a bit rubbish with cancellations etc, and it's annoying they have no decent bi-modes to use the wires (again).

I don't however think 2tph on that line is terrible, and yes, I would use it if I lived there, it's just a not-quite-as-good version of Merseyrail. It could be better, but it's not terrible. Terrible is 0.5tph on the CLC East for example, which might as well just not exist. FWIW for my first 10 years in MK I had a 2bph local bus service and I did use it.

People who currently don't use that service aren't going to start using it because of the new clean air plan policies. That's simply not going to happen - and that's expected as part of the policy anyway. Usage at Trafford Park is ~0 compared to Hazel Grove, so it's essentially irrelevant. There's also no possibility of more people ever using it because there's no possibility of more trains stopping there.

I think that your expectations are just out of line because of looking at things as an enthusiast. You don't use the bus in MK daily today do you? Nobody would if they had a choice about it.

 

[The Ham]

And that is before you even consider that, reducing the number of cars around speeds up bus services, as it is the cars (in most places) that slow down the buses

Indeed, a lot of the bus cost inflation in the last 20 years is down to needing to run more buses due to increased delays from the extra traffic.

If you want to be entirely selfish (in terms of being able to drive) you'd want as many other people not driving as possible. As then you'd be able to drive about much more easily with far fewer delays.

The problem is that this doesn't fit with our inbuilt logic that you like people like yourself, so you don't want to be different from others (even if it's better for you).

 

[Bletchleyite]

People who currently don't use that service aren't going to start using it because of the new clean air plan policies. That's simply not going to happen - and that's expected as part of the policy anyway. Usage at Trafford Park is ~0 compared to Hazel Grove, so it's essentially irrelevant. There's also no possibility of more people ever using it because there's no possibility of more trains stopping there.

I think that your expectations are just out of line because of looking at things as an enthusiast. You don't use the bus in MK daily today do you? Nobody would if they had a choice about it.

Anyway how many people are travelling in that way who couldn't board the train at their local station? Literally any settlement of any significant size in the A6 type direction has a station with the 2tph Buxton service or the hourly Hope Valley stopper.

 

[Starmill]

Are you saying there have been no efforts to improve public transport and cycling in london over the last 10ish years?

No, I'm saying that clean air plans waste vast amounts of money on changing behaviour in terms of vehicles, and spend almost none on changing behaviour in terms of modes. London obviously has had large improvements because large amounts of money have been spent. The rest of England has had very little money spent and very little improvement.

Anyway how many people are travelling in that way who couldn't board the train at their local station? Literally any settlement of any significant size in the A6 type direction has a station with the 2tph Buxton service or the hourly Hope Valley stopper.

Why would you board the train in Derbyshire and pay 30-40% more when you can park free at Hazel Grove and get more services and a much cheaper fare?

If you charged for car parking and put prices down from Derbyshire stations people would do as you say, but currently the railway industry is subsidising extra driving on that corridor. Buxton is 1tph with a small number of peak extras. It used to be 2tph but has been cut.

 

[PeterC]

Not the case, sadly. You must pay the charge each day you drive within the zone.

A midnight cut off doesn't do much for the night time economy.

Off stage 23:00
Start clear down 23:20
Van packed 23:40
On road 23:45
24:00 still within zone, second fee due

 

[Vespa]

Not the case, sadly. You must pay the charge each day you drive within the zone. From the TfL website:

That's what I thought it could be, your charging only end when your camera records you leaving which also leaves another question if the exit camera are damaged and you get charged more when in fact you already left, there must be an appeal process that recognises that.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's what I thought it could be, your charging only end when your camera records you leaving which also leaves another question if the exit camera are damaged and you get charged more when in fact you already left, there must be an appeal process that recognises that.

I think it is simpler than that. Being recorded on a camera that day counts as you having driven in the zone that day.

 

[Trainbike46]

That's what I thought it could be, your charging only end when your camera records you leaving which also leaves another question if the exit camera are damaged and you get charged more when in fact you already left, there must be an appeal process that recognises that.

I am not an expert, but I think the way it works if you have autocharge enabled is, that you get charged for days in which the cameras spot you driving (usually when entering or leaving the zone), and if you manage to drive within the zone without encountering any cameras, then you don't get charged. Maybe someone who drives in london and uses the automatic charging service can confirm?

 

[Vespa]

I am not an expert, but I think the way it works if you have autocharge enabled is, that you get charged for days in which the cameras spot you driving (usually when entering or leaving the zone), and if you manage to drive within the zone without encountering any cameras, then you don't get charged. Maybe someone who drives in london and uses the automatic charging service can confirm?

That's what I've been trying to get at, if get recorded once entering the zone and then drive around within the zone boundary behind the cameras never leaving the ULEZ the whole time, so you're not recorded entering and leaving on day 2, 3 or 10.

 

[Trainbike46]

That's what I've been trying to get at, if get recorded once entering the zone snd then drive around within the zone boundary behind the cameras so you're not recorded entering and leaving on day 2, 3 or 10.

I think there are some cameras within the zone as well, but yes I believe it is possible to drive in the zone and not be charged, but it is not very likely

 

[mullinsj08]

While some people may do that to make a point (or e.g. fit a compliant large V8 petrol to their Land Rover Defender), most people won't as that'll drink fuel and it's expensive.

I know, it was a comment where my tongue was firmly planted in my cheek.

But for my scenario, living in Hampshire, only drive once or twice a week and frequent the areas soon to be covered by the ULEZ about once every two weeks. There's no point me buying a brand new compliant car as it would spend most of its time parked up.

It's more economical for me to get a used car (even if it may be slightly older than my current one) which is compliant (Doesn't have to be a BMW X5 or a V8...but I want one)

 

[Noddy]

The most serious failure of all clean air plan schemes so far is that they've been first and foremost about getting people to change their vehicle to a compliant one, or change their route so that they don't drive within the area.

I really don’t have a problem with that at all if it reduces air pollution and helps stop 1000s of folk dying every year of respiratory illnesses caused by air pollution. Obviously there maybe other issues, such as moving the air pollution from one built up area to another (has this been shown to happen and if so what are the consequences), but fundamentally if these clean air zones are reducing pollution and stopping people dying they are working. Would it be better to improve public transport alongside them-absolutely. But I’m unconvinced that the money spent on them would stretch far enough to provide any significant public transport benefits if it was spent on that instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's what I've been trying to get at, if get recorded once entering the zone and then drive around within the zone boundary behind the cameras never leaving the ULEZ the whole time, so you're not recorded entering and leaving on day 2, 3 or 10.

Cameras are not only on the boundary. There are I think some mobile ones too. It definitely isn't based on when you're seen going in or out as per a car park.

 

[Wolfie]

Bit of question about the ULEZ while talking to friend who lives in London, he seems to think that you can only get charged once if you enter a zone and you can drive around for days within the zone without being billed per day as the ULEZ don't charge for leaving a zone only for entering.

So what's right ?

TfL talk about a daily charge if your vehicle breaches the standard so....

Ultra Low Emission Zone

Within the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) in London vehicles must meet exhaust emission standards or their drivers need to pay to drive within the zone

tfl.gov.uk