ULEZ (Ultra Low Emission Zone) vs. zero emissions

[trebor79]

EVs are not logical, they are very expensive to buy and the running costs are higher than a typical petrol.

Incorrect

Replacing the battery packs writes the car off and they are only warranted for 8 years, well below the typical lifespan of a car

Uh huh. How long is an ice engine warrant d for? You're aware the battery doesn't suddenly stop working at 8 years?

Public chargers are very expensive, and taking into account the efficiency of a EV. It's like running a big petrol engine that barely does 30mpg.

Mpg is nothing to do with price. EVs are much much more efficient than ice. On an energy basis it's equivalent to about 250mpg.

I've seen multiple objective tests and on a longer journey it's almost twice the price to run and EV vs an ICE

Nope.

 

[En]

I would not be in favour of a nationwide ULEZ.
It would make me unemployed

I can't afford a Euro 6 ULEZ compliant vehicle and my work is in a rural area with only 1x bus a day which is totally unusable.
My car is perfectly good and it would write it off unnecessarily.
I do not drive into big cities, so I don't see why I should be penalised for going to work outside the town where I live.

even if it came in tomorrow i bet you can afford a mid 2000s petrol which is Euro 4 which is the ULEZ requirement for petrol engined vehicles - probably likely all ready drive one but let's not let facts get in the way eh ?


a lot of the bull spouted about ULEZ / Euro6 is down to people who live in a London Bubble and drove Euro 5 diesel cars or vans - Euro 5 Diesels are not 'worthless' once you get outside the M25 at present

The issue I’d have with an EV is, firstly, not being able to make a long journey without enforced stops to charge up, and secondly the prospect of the battery life degrading with age such that the first problem would become worse over time. For me this completely negates any benefit over a petrol car, which I also happen to enjoy driving.

What I would like to see is a crackdown on poorly maintained vehicles, which can produce some pretty invasive emissions.

do you routinely drive more than 250 - 300 miles in a single stint or approximately 4 -6 hours ( remembering that a vocational driver would be FORCED to have 45 minutes of breaks after each 4 hours of driving ) ...
a lot of the stuff about ' enforced stops to charge up' are somewhat fantastical, bordering on testerical and based in lies around range (VW ID 4 at least 357km range, - larger capacity batteries well over 500 km Vauxhall /Opel Astra Electrica quioting certified range of 258 miles ...

 

[Richard Scott]

Depends what assistance could be given.



Because old diesels stink everywhere. I'm in Penrith at the moment and they utterly stink here. They harm my health, they harm children's health.

The air in London is now nicer to breathe than in Penrith. Let that sink in, that's big.

If a newer van isn't affordable, consider an older petrol estate car instead. 10+ year old models often comply. Or if this is just a car, just get a petrol car of similar value (I would expect a national ULEZ to include a scrappage scheme based on values before announcement as resale won't be possible).

You're massively over exaggerating; what do you mean by old diesels? This report (I hope the URL copies correctly, if not will try again, I have just tried it and it does appear to work)
Concawe
https://www.concawe.eu › R...PDF
A comparison of real driving emissions from Euro 6 diesel passenger cars ...
suggests that actual real life emissions from a post 2015 diesel is about the same as an EV as tyres contributed more to particulates and even NOx were negligible. I didn't choose this to be biased, it was the first I clicked on. I also hope I've interpreted the information correctly so apologies in advance if someone finds a flaw in what I've said.
Pre 2015 diesels were worse in both respects but they still don't 'stink'. I had a 2007 diesel car, which definitely had a particulate filter so most of these were removed.
Think you need to be a bit more realistic and not jump on demonising diesel bandwagon like lots of people including our politicians. I'm not claiming they're putting out emissions that are as clean as the air they take in but they are also not the big problem some people will have you believe.
We should be aiming to have as much traffic on public transport and not go down the road of kick out ICE cars and bring in EVs. Less traffic is a better option but, in reality, that will probably never happen?

Your internal combustion engine is typically only warranted for 3 years.

I have never had a car where the engine doesn't last 8 years, even second hand ones!

 

[trebor79]

Diesels do stink, even those with adblu and DPF. And Inverness they are carefully maintained they start to chuck out clouds of particulates after a few years anyway.
Look at the inside of the exhaust pipe of any ICE - it's black due to all of the soot and tears being thrown out.

 

[Richard Scott]

Diesels do stink, even those with adblu and DPF. And Inverness they are carefully maintained they start to chuck out clouds of particulates after a few years anyway.
Look at the inside of the exhaust pipe of any ICE - it's black due to all of the soot and tears being thrown out.

Smell is actually quite a sweet smell so wouldn't say they stink (even my old Euro 2 car had that smell). Not all particulates will be removed, think we'd all acknowledge that. Point is some people are making them out to be far worse than they actually are.

 

[trebor79]

Smell is actually quite a sweet smell so wouldn't say they stink (even my old Euro 2 car had that smell). Not all particulates will be removed, think we'd all acknowledge that. Point is some people are making them out to be far worse than they actually are.

I find it offensive and it irritates my sinuses. I don't react to breathe that stuff in. The fact it stinks the same as a Euro 2 shows there is still a load of toxic crap being pumped into the air we breathe.
The number of relatively new diesels belching clouds of smoke when the driver gives it some welly shows they don't stay (relatively) clean for long.

 

[507021]

Older diesels will be around for a while yet, and rightly so. It is more environmentally friendly to keep older vehicles on the road for as long as possible than scrap perfectly serviceable vehicles and replace them with new ones for the sake of it. The construction of new vehicles, especially EVs, expends finite resources and has the side of effect of harmful emissions which can do just as much damage to peoples' health, if not more.

Just for the record, I'm not against EVs. I'm against waste.

 

[43066]

The issue I’d have with an EV is, firstly, not being able to make a long journey without enforced stops to charge up, and secondly the prospect of the battery life degrading with age such that the first problem would become worse over time. For me this completely negates any benefit over a petrol car, which I also happen to enjoy driving.

What I would like to see is a crackdown on poorly maintained vehicles, which can produce some pretty invasive emissions.

To be fair some of my “missions” wouldn’t suit an EV either - essentially the car is parked at home, in a garage with no electrical supply, then used for (eg) weekends in Yorkshire and Northumberland, each just over a thousand miles within three or four days, then leaving at home again for a week or more at a time.

Totally agree re. badly maintained cars - a crackdown on terrible driving, such a middle lane hogging and tailgating, would be equally welcome.

I have never had a car where the engine doesn't last 8 years, even second hand ones!

But presumably you’ve had a car with a three year warranty where the engine lasts beyond three years? A warranty isn’t a statement that “this car will die completely three years plus one day after purchase”.

Older diesels will be around for a while yet

Not in London they won’t. They’re already largely gone due to ULEZ, and quite rightly so.

No ice I've ever driven could have got to that speed in 6 seconds even if I did floor it!

Didn’t you previously say you had an M4 (apologies if I’m confusing you with someone else)? That’ll absolutely do it in less than six, comfortably around 4, or even less, depending on the model.

I agree that a potent Tesla, properly booted down the road, has to be felt to be believed, though.

 

[Bald Rick]

And what’s the betting it’s extended significantly beyond that?

I’d take bets at 2/1 that 2035 will stick.

The issue I’d have with an EV is, firstly, not being able to make a long journey without enforced stops to charge up, and secondly the prospect of the battery life degrading with age such that the first problem would become worse over time.

Plenty of EVs out there with 350+ mile ranges. Twice in my life I have driven that far without stopping, and in both cases my bladder was about the size of a watermelon. If you need to do super long trips - which most drivers don‘t do, buy the right car and the stops will not be enforced by it.

Battery degredation is clearly not a major issue, given how many 8-10 year old Tesla S are out there with 150k+ miles on and still selling for £15k. Compare to similar age / milage BMW 5s, going for half the price.

 

[cactustwirly]

Incorrect

Uh huh. How long is an ice engine warrant d for? You're aware the battery doesn't suddenly stop working at 8 years?

Mpg is nothing to do with price. EVs are much much more efficient than ice. On an energy basis it's equivalent to about 250mpg.

Nope.

Enlighten me, what is the going rate at a public charger these days?
What real world efficiency do you get on a wet and windy winters day?

 

[Richard Scott]

I find it offensive and it irritates my sinuses. I don't react to breathe that stuff in. The fact it stinks the same as a Euro 2 shows there is still a load of toxic crap being pumped into the air we breathe.
The number of relatively new diesels belching clouds of smoke when the driver gives it some welly shows they don't stay (relatively) clean for long.

Where are these cloud belching diesels? I must admit I've never seen one in past 10 or 15 years.

 

[notverydeep]

Where are these cloud belching diesels? I must admit I've never seen one in past 10 or 15 years.

There’s a good video of 37418 doing some cloud belching in the last couple of days and in the ULEZ too! I’m not sure that an English Electric 12CSVT is Euro VI compliant…

 

[Richard Scott]

There’s a good video of 37418 doing some cloud belching in the last couple of days and in the ULEZ too! I’m not sure that an English Electric 12CSVT is Euro VI compliant…

Don't think a 37 is Euro anything compliant but bet you'll struggle to see a 1960s built diesel powered car on the road too!!
Ironically, I believe class 20s were used in Channel Tunnel building due to fairly low particulate emissions. Meant scrubbers on exhaust could deal with what was emitted.

 

[notverydeep]

Don't think a 37 is Euro anything compliant but bet you'll struggle to see a 1960s built diesel powered car on the road too!!

Euro IV applied from 2005 and was a meaningful improvement on what went before. The mean age at scrapping for cars is apparently 16 years.

I have done some analysis of the detailed data files published by the DVLA here: https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/vehicle-licensing-statistics-data-files - specifically those that include Year of Manufacture. Annoyingly the file with the year of first manufacture does not include fuel type and the file with fuel type doesn't appear to have year of manufacture, so I haven't been able to disaggregate diesels from all cars. I have inserted an Excel graph of this data below (I hope it will be readable in the post!).

In this file I find that only 5.3% of all cars licenced in 2023 were manufactured prior to 2005, meaning that you are correct, very few 1960s diesels are likely to be still operating (and most will surely be heritage buses, lorries and tractors rather than cars and most of these will have very low annual mileages). Only 0.26% of licenced vehicles (so roughly one in 400) date from prior to 1970.

Another thing I noticed is that the 'half life' of a car manufactured in 2005 (i.e. 18 years old in the data) is between only 2 and 3 years - that is, if the proportion in each age doesn't change very much in the next few years, half of those remaining 2005 cars will no longer be in a couple of years (as it is now 2024). However, about 47% of licenced cars are from 2014 or earlier and it will take 7 years or so for this number to halve (again assuming the age profile remains consistent).

I conclude from this that cloud belching diesels are relatively few now and will be even less common within a fairly short time...

 

[trebor79]

Enlighten me, what is the going rate at a public charger these days?
What real world efficiency do you get on a wet and windy winters day?

Tesla Superchargers are 24-52p/kWh depending upon which site and time of day.
In summer at 70mph the car will do just under 5m/kWh. In the depths of winter about 3.5/kWh at the same speed, although first 30 minutes or so it's a bit less than that if the battery is cold.
Tesla destination chargers are free.
Other public charging anywhere from about 20p to 89p per kWh depending upon AC or DC and which CPO.

Where are these cloud belching diesels? I must admit I've never seen one in past 10 or 15 years.

I see one almost every day. Just yesterday there was one on the Lincoln ring road with an actual cloud trailing behind it. It was a 19 plate.
It's not uncommon at all to see a black puff out of the back of a diesel when the driver floors it or pulls away from a junction. They are absolutely filthy and even before the EV revoltinwas firmly of the opinion that diesel engines should be banned from cars and small vans.

 

[Richard Scott]

I see one almost every day. Just yesterday there was one on the Lincoln ring road with an actual cloud trailing behind it. It was a 19 plate.
It's not uncommon at all to see a black puff out of the back of a diesel when the driver floors it or pulls away from a junction. They are absolutely filthy and even before the EV revoltinwas firmly of the opinion that diesel engines should be banned from cars and small vans.

So one car then?
Black smoke isn't an issue as it's what you can't see that's the health problem as that's the particulates than can stick in your lungs hence why people don't realise tyre particulates and brake dust are an issue.

 

[trebor79]

So one car then?
Black smoke isn't an issue as it's what you can't see that's the health problem as that's the particulates than can stick in your lungs hence why people don't realise tyre particulates and brake dust are an issue.

It's every day. The roads are full.of poorly maintained filthy ICE engines vehicles, particularly diesel engines cars and vans.
So you accept the fact I can see the big particles of soot, but the small ones that cause the health issues are somehow magically not coming out of the exhaust too?

 

[Richard Scott]

It's every day. The roads are full.of poorly maintained filthy ICE engines vehicles, particularly diesel engines cars and vans.
So you accept the fact I can see the big particles of soot, but the small ones that cause the health issues are somehow magically not coming out of the exhaust too?

To be honest I see very few, the odd van every so often, probably not even once a month.
No but people assume it's what you can see is the problem. I have never denied smaller particulates aren't an issue. In modern vehicles most of those small particulates come from tyres.
What would be interesting to know is how much of this particulate matter in the air is due to a variety of sources such as diesel engines, direct injection petrol engines, tyres, brakes, gas boilers, wood burners etc. If anyone has such figures it would be interesting even if it proves me wrong.

 

[trebor79]

To be honest I see very few, the odd van every so often, probably not even once a month.
No but people assume it's what you can see is the problem. I have never denied smaller particulates aren't an issue. In modern vehicles most of those small particulates come from tyres.
What would be interesting to know is how much of this particulate matter in the air is due to a variety of sources such as diesel engines, direct injection petrol engines, tyres, brakes, gas boilers, wood burners etc. If anyone has such figures it would be interesting even if it proves me wrong.

None of that is an excuse to keep filthy old diesels on the road.
It's morally wrong to continue to use a diesel car IMO.

 

[Merle Haggard]

Don't think a 37 is Euro anything compliant but bet you'll struggle to see a 1960s built diesel powered car on the road too!!
Ironically, I believe class 20s were used in Channel Tunnel building due to fairly low particulate emissions. Meant scrubbers on exhaust could deal with heat was emitted.

You would struggle to find a diesel car IN the 1960s - or 1970s. As far as I remember, none were available in the 1960s.
The only diesel cars available in the 1970s were Morris Oxfords, and they were only be sold as taxis, not to private buyers. Later in the decade, a Peugeot diesel was theoretically available with I think the same condition..
Small diesel engines had not been fully developed then - diesel taxis were left running when waiting a fare for the simple reason that they were very hard to start.

 

[cactustwirly]

Tesla Superchargers are 24-52p/kWh depending upon which site and time of day.
In summer at 70mph the car will do just under 5m/kWh. In the depths of winter about 3.5/kWh at the same speed, although first 30 minutes or so it's a bit less than that if the battery is cold.
Tesla destination chargers are free.
Other public charging anywhere from about 20p to 89p per kWh depending upon AC or DC and which CPO.

I see one almost every day. Just yesterday there was one on the Lincoln ring road with an actual cloud trailing behind it. It was a 19 plate.
It's not uncommon at all to see a black puff out of the back of a diesel when the driver floors it or pulls away from a junction. They are absolutely filthy and even before the EV revoltinwas firmly of the opinion that diesel engines should be banned from cars and small vans.

If you're paying 52p per kWh it's still £5 more than running a petrol over a 200 mile distance.
52p is very cheap for public chargers most are more.

 

[Richard Scott]

None of that is an excuse to keep filthy old diesels on the road.
It's morally wrong to continue to use a diesel car IMO.

We keep going around in circles, you're calling them filthy but it's all opinion, where are the facts and evidence? Why is it morally wrong?
Just because you say you see one belching out black smoke, seemingly on a more regular basis than the rest of us, isn't evidence.
What's the science? No-one has yet criticised the article that I posted as factually wrong (they may still do so) and it has said any cars post 2015 are no worse for particulates than an EV. I had a 2007 Euro 4 car and it never left anything in a cloud of black smoke even when I sold it in 2020.

You would struggle to find a diesel car IN the 1960s - or 1970s. As far as I remember, none were available in the 1960s.
The only diesel cars available in the 1970s were Morris Oxfords, and they were only be sold as taxis, not to private buyers. Later in the decade, a Peugeot diesel was theoretically available with I think the same condition..
Small diesel engines had not been fully developed then - diesel taxis were left running when waiting a fare for the simple reason that they were very hard to start.

Very true, think first diesel I saw was a mk2 Granada that was used as a Taxi. Probably in the 1980s then.

 

[cactustwirly]

None of that is an excuse to keep filthy old diesels on the road.
It's morally wrong to continue to use a diesel car IMO.

Tell that to Stagecoach or the Tesco truck delivering food, they are the worst offenders, buses and trucks are the filthiest of them all

 

[trebor79]

If you're paying 52p per kWh it's still £5 more than running a petrol over a 200 mile distance.
52p is very cheap for public chargers most are more.

It's not. It's about 12p per mile. My old Peugeot 208 (a much smaller car) cost me 15p a mile in fuel at todays prices.

We keep going around in circles, you're calling them filthy but it's all opinion, where are the facts and evidence? Why is it morally wrong?
Just because you say you see one belching out black smoke, seemingly on a more regular basis than the rest of us, isn't evidence.
What's the science? No-one has yet criticised the article that I posted as factually wrong (they may still do so) and it has said any cars post 2015 are no worse for particulates than an EV. I had a 2007 Euro 4 car and it never left anything in a cloud of black smoke even when I sold it in 2020.

Go stand behind any idling diesel car and you'll smell/feel it.

Tell that to Stagecoach or the Tesco truck delivering food, they are the worst offenders, buses and trucks are the filthiest of them all

They tend to be much better maintained, don't have the DPF removed etc. Many of them are changing to CNG anyway, Waitrose entire fleet is now CNF.

 

[Richard Scott]

Go stand behind any idling diesel car and you'll smell/feel it.

That doesn't mean it's dangerous, scientific evidence would be better.
To be honest I'd rather stand behind a diesel car idling than sit next to someone on a train with strong perfume as that definitely causes me to have breathing issues and sets of my sinus issue. However, that's personal and lots of people don't. I'd like strong perfume banned as wearing it is immoral in my opinion but that's just my opinion and has no scientific fact (apart from fact I know it definitely sets off my allergies and can say with a degree of certainty that it is that).

They tend to be much better maintained, don't have the DPF removed etc. Many of them are changing to CNG anyway, Waitrose entire fleet is now CNG.

Removing the DPF would cause an MOT failure now. CNG still produces particulate matter.

 

[trebor79]

That doesn't mean it's dangerous, scientific evidence would be better.
To be honest I'd rather stand behind a diesel car idling than sit next to someone on a train with strong perfume as that definitely causes me to have breathing issues and sets of my sinus issue. However, that's personal and lots of people don't. I'd like strong perfume banned as wearing it is immoral in my opinion but that's just my opinion and has no scientific fact (apart from fact I know it definitely sets off my allergies and can say with a degree of certainty that it is that).

Except it's scientifically proven that exhaust fumes cause cancers, neurological issues, asthma and death.

Removing the DPF would cause an MOT failure now. CNG still produces particulate matter.

Indeed, but it's a lot cleaner than diesel.
Some garages will turn a blind eye to such things. I know because my 208 had a catalytic converter that didn't work at all due to the engine burning oil, but they did something to get it through the emissions test.

 

[Richard Scott]

Except it's scientifically proven that exhaust fumes cause cancers, neurological issues, asthma and death.

Indeed, but it's a lot cleaner than diesel.
Some garages will turn a blind eye to such things. I know because my 208 had a catalytic converter that didn't work at all due to the engine burning oil, but they did something to get it through the emissions test.

Yes it is but you're just blaming 'dirty diesels' when it's more complex than that. Also modern exhausts are so clean it's arguable that they don't contribute any significant amounts to cause health problems; please see article I posted above.
Tyre particulates and brake dust are also proven but that keeps being ignored.
Some garages might but it's still illegal. Sure you can get a lot of unlawful things done if you know the right person and pay for it.

 

[cactustwirly]

It's not. It's about 12p per mile. My old Peugeot 208 (a much smaller car) cost me 15p a mile in fuel at todays prices.

Go stand behind any idling diesel car and you'll smell/feel it.

They tend to be much better maintained, don't have the DPF removed etc. Many of them are changing to CNG anyway, Waitrose entire fleet is now CNF.

A modern petrol car is between 12-13p a litre to run.
When you've got your heater on or it's windy your EV costs more to run, is a lot more expensive to buy and is more inconvenient to use.

It doesn't make any sense to own an EV unless you have space to charge it at home and you use it as a runaround

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes it is but you're just blaming 'dirty diesels' when it's more complex than that. Also modern exhausts are so clean it's arguable that they don't contribute any significant amounts to cause health problems; please see article I posted above.
Tyre particulates and brake dust are also proven but that keeps being ignored.
Some garages might but it's still illegal. Sure you can get a lot of unlawful things done if you know the right person and pay for it.

If you're concerned about brake dust, all the more reason to go EV (or at least petrol hybrid) so you can use regenerative braking to reduce it.

Diesel for private cars and small vans is dead (and for urban buses it's in its throes). It just needs to be buried.

 

[cactustwirly]

If you're concerned about brake dust, all the more reason to go EV (or at least petrol hybrid) so you can use regenerative braking to reduce it.

Diesel for private cars and small vans is dead (and for urban buses it's in its throes). It just needs to be buried.

It's not quite dead yet, private sales for diesel cars have increased over the past year, whilst EVs have decreased.