ULEZ (Ultra Low Emission Zone) vs. zero emissions

[Richard Scott]

If you're concerned about brake dust, all the more reason to go EV (or at least petrol hybrid) so you can use regenerative braking to reduce it.

Diesel for private cars and small vans is dead (and for urban buses it's in its throes). It just needs to be buried.

You still have tyres, which are a much bigger problem.
Again, why? I have yet to see decent science on this thread to say exactly why you all have such a big problem with diesel. No-one has commented on the document I posted, which said modern diesels were no more of an issue than an EV. If someone wishes to disprove with proper science I don't have sn issues with that but you're all jumping on the demonise diesel bandwagon with no scientific proof.
Diesel isn't yet dead with cars and vans as they not exactly selling in penny numbers. It might not be what it was but certainly isn't insignificant yet. Whilst that may, and probably will, happen it isn't just yet.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Here is some science:

Diesel exhaust and asthma: hypotheses and molecular mechanisms of action - PMC

Several components of air pollution have been linked to asthma. In addition to the well-studied critera air pollutants, such as nitrogen dioxide, sulfur dioxide, and ozone, diesel exhaust and diesel exhaust particles (DEPs) also appear to play a ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Several components of air pollution have been linked to asthma. In addition to the well-studied critera air pollutants, such as nitrogen dioxide, sulfur dioxide, and ozone, diesel exhaust and diesel exhaust particles (DEPs) also appear to play a role in respiratory and allergic diseases. Diesel exhaust is composed of vapors, gases, and fine particles emitted by diesel-fueled compression-ignition engines. DEPs can act as nonspecific airway irritants at relatively high levels. At lower levels, DEPs promote release of specific cytokines, chemokines, immunoglobulins, and oxidants in the upper and lower airway. Release of these mediators of the allergic and inflammatory response initiates a cascade that can culminate in airway inflammation, mucus secretion, serum leakage into the airways, and bronchial smooth muscle contraction. DEPs also may promote expression of the T(subscript)H(/subscript)2 immunologic response phenotype that has been associated with asthma and allergic disease. DEPs appear to have greater immunologic effects in the presence of environmental allergens than they do alone. This immunologic evidence may help explain the epidemiologic studies indicating that children living along major trucking thoroughfares are at increased risk for asthmatic and allergic symptoms and are more likely to have objective evidence of respiratory dysfunction.

The medical profession is taking it VERY seriously.

I can cope with the idea that Euro 5B is as close to 6 as makes a relatively small difference (i.e. DPFs are what makes the main difference), but there is a lot of far older junk still out there kicking out utter filth into my lungs and those of our children.
[/QUOTE]

 

[cactustwirly]

Here is some science:

Diesel exhaust and asthma: hypotheses and molecular mechanisms of action - PMC

Several components of air pollution have been linked to asthma. In addition to the well-studied critera air pollutants, such as nitrogen dioxide, sulfur dioxide, and ozone, diesel exhaust and diesel exhaust particles (DEPs) also appear to play a ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The medical profession is taking it VERY seriously.

I can cope with the idea that Euro 5B is as close to 6 as makes a relatively small difference (i.e. DPFs are what makes the main difference), but there is a lot of far older junk still out there kicking out utter filth into my lungs and those of our children.

[/QUOTE]

Euro 5B also has NOx reduction too. DPFs came with Euro 4
What Richard is saying is that a modern diesel with a DPF and EGR valves to reduce the NOx emissions are actually quite clean.
Your link talks generally about diesel emissions, and doesn't take into account the difference between Euro 3 and Euro 6.

Euro 4 cars with DPFs are now 14 years old (circa 2009/10), the amount of non DPF Diesels still on the roads must be quite small now

 

[Richard Scott]

Here is some science:

Diesel exhaust and asthma: hypotheses and molecular mechanisms of action - PMC

Several components of air pollution have been linked to asthma. In addition to the well-studied critera air pollutants, such as nitrogen dioxide, sulfur dioxide, and ozone, diesel exhaust and diesel exhaust particles (DEPs) also appear to play a ...

pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The medical profession is taking it VERY seriously.

I can cope with the idea that Euro 5B is as close to 6 as makes a relatively small difference (i.e. DPFs are what makes the main difference), but there is a lot of far older junk still out there kicking out utter filth into my lungs and those of our children.

Key word is 'appear'. Doesn't say that it does for definite. Agree I'm being pedantic here but it is not conclusive scientific proof.
Again the document I posted states that a modern diesel is no more of an issue than an EV. No-one has yet produced scientific evidence to refute that.
Your report is from medics (who also produced a lot of non-science when coronavirus was the big thing) so sorry it's not actual science. Have they actually done studies, there doesn't seem to be any evidence in that report. There's lots of use of the word 'appears' so not actually conclusive.
I'd also be willing to bet Birmingham New Street has a higher level of pollution due to all those Voyager engines than the city centre with a very high proportion of Euro 5 and 6 vehicles. Similar for places like Bristol TM. These things definitely need disposing of as bet they meet next to Euro nothing.

 

[ABB125]

I'd also be willing to bet Birmingham New Street has a higher level of pollution due to all those Voyager engines than the city centre with a very high proportion of Euro 5 and 6 vehicles. Similar for places like Bristol TM.

I have been told by a source from the world of rail academia that this is indeed the case.

 

[DC1989]

I’d take bets at 2/1 that 2035 will stick.

I thought Labour brought back the 2030 deadline?

 

[Bletchleyite]

I'd also be willing to bet Birmingham New Street has a higher level of pollution due to all those Voyager engines than the city centre with a very high proportion of Euro 5 and 6 vehicles. Similar for places like Bristol TM. These things definitely need disposing of as bet they meet next to Euro nothing.

One thing being a problem (and I would agree it is - you can taste it let alone small it) doesn't mean other entirely independent problems cannot be solved. That's a very common logical fallacy - "you can't fix X because Y is a problem" - and it's almost never true.

 

[NIT100]

Key word is 'appear'. Doesn't say that it does for definite. Agree I'm being pedantic here but it is not conclusive scientific proof.
Again the document I posted states that a modern diesel is no more of an issue than an EV. No-one has yet produced scientific evidence to refute that.
Your report is from medics (who also produced a lot of non-science when coronavirus was the big thing) so sorry it's not actual science. Have they actually done studies, there doesn't seem to be any evidence in that report. There's lots of use of the word 'appears' so not actually conclusive.
I'd also be willing to bet Birmingham New Street has a higher level of pollution due to all those Voyager engines than the city centre with a very high proportion of Euro 5 and 6 vehicles. Similar for places like Bristol TM. These things definitely need disposing of as bet they meet next to Euro nothing.

You might be interested in this report: REASSESSMENT OF EXCESS NOX FROM EUROPEAN DIESEL CARS FOLLOWING THE COURT OF JUSTICE OF THE EUROPEAN UNION RULINGS

Subject is on NOx emissions from both Euro 5 and Euro 6 diesel cars before the introduction of Real Driving Emissions (RDE) requirements in Euro 6d-Temp, which is from September 2017. Even then, diesel cars are still found to exceed NOx limits under driving conditions not covered by RDE. There is also a Factsheet summary available here: Reassessing NOX emissions from diesel cars after the EU’s top court defeat device rulings

Some extracts below:

“Suspicious” levels of NOX emissions were found in 77%–100% of tests and vehicle averages, indicating the likely use of a prohibited defeat device. The largest group of data was testing by official government authorities under controlled settings. Exceedance of the suspicious emissions threshold was seen in 85% of tests on Euro 5 vehicles and 77% of tests on pre-RDE Euro 6 vehicles. Similar rates were observed for government tests conducted under real-world conditions and real-world tests from independent organizations. Remote sensing measurements showed up to 100% engine family averages exceed the suspicious threshold.

“Extreme” levels of NOX emissions were found in 40%–75% of tests and vehicle averages, indicating that a prohibited defeat device is almost certainly present. Approximately 42% of tests by official government authorities under controlled settings exceeded the extreme threshold. Results from government and independent real-world testing showed similar or higher rates of extreme emissions. Remote sensing measurements showed approximately 75% engine family averages exceed the suspicious threshold.

Extend the scope of RDE testing: While this report focuses on Euro 5 and pre-RDE Euro 6 diesel vehicles, there are important implications for the vehicle certification process. The RDE requirements were introduced starting with Euro 6d-TEMP vehicles to address excess real-world emissions. Vehicles type-approved under those new regulatory requirements were found to emit significantly less than Euro 6 vehicles but fall short of delivering low emissions under normal real-world driving conditions. For example, emissions during dynamic driving style or hilly roads, which go beyond the boundaries defining a compliant RDE trip, were shown to have emissions multiple times higher than the applicable limit (Transport & Environment 2018). The Euro 7 regulation should aim to significantly enlarge the scope of permissible on-road testing conditions.

There are plenty of papers online on harmful effects of NOx and Particulate Matter pollution. Obviously there is tyre and brake pad Particulate Matter emissions applicable to both vehicle types, here is a study concluding that EVs were marginally better with regenerative braking. although the results were dependent on the level of regen braking and brake pad material: Comparison of total PM emissions emitted from electric and internal combustion engine vehicles: An experimental analysis It is acknowledged the difficulty in estimating exhaust contributions to overall Particulate Matter emissions of exhausts. This doesn't consider things that aren't Particulate Matter, include NOx, ammonia and hydrocarbons.

You quoted a report from Concawe which I believe is from April 2018, although the link you posted hasn't worked. You do know who Concawe are?

 

[Richard Scott]

You might be interested in this report: REASSESSMENT OF EXCESS NOX FROM EUROPEAN DIESEL CARS FOLLOWING THE COURT OF JUSTICE OF THE EUROPEAN UNION RULINGS

Subject is on NOx emissions from both Euro 5 and Euro 6 diesel cars before the introduction of Real Driving Emissions (RDE) requirements in Euro 6d-Temp, which is from September 2017. Even then, diesel cars are still found to exceed NOx limits under driving conditions not covered by RDE. There is also a Factsheet summary available here: Reassessing NOX emissions from diesel cars after the EU’s top court defeat device rulings

Some extracts below:



There are plenty of papers online on harmful effects of NOx and Particulate Matter pollution. Obviously there is tyre and brake pad Particulate Matter emissions applicable to both vehicle types, here is a study concluding that EVs were marginally better with regenerative braking. although the results were dependent on the level of regen braking and brake pad material: Comparison of total PM emissions emitted from electric and internal combustion engine vehicles: An experimental analysis It is acknowledged the difficulty in estimating exhaust contributions to overall Particulate Matter emissions of exhausts. This doesn't consider things that aren't Particulate Matter, include NOx, ammonia and hydrocarbons.

You quoted a report from Concawe which I believe is from April 2018, although the link you posted hasn't worked. You do know who Concawe are?

Thanks, that make interesting reading.
Sorry link didn't work, I did try it and it worked but will see if can sort it.
To be honest it was first thing I found so wasn't deliberately looking for something to prove a point.

 

[Bald Rick]

I thought Labour brought back the 2030 deadline?

Not to my knowledge.

 

[NIT100]

I thought Labour brought back the 2030 deadline?

It was a manifesto pledge. However, it looks like hybrid sales will be allowed between 2030-2035. Personally, I think only allow Plug In Hybrid sales between 2030-2035. As others have said, a Plug-in Hybrid with typical 50 mile range will do most journeys only on battery, while making a significant dent in overall petrol & diesel consumption.

With regard to Zero-Emission Zones, I don't see any likely until 2030 at the earliest. I think it is the right thing to push, but it definitely isn't a vote winner. Focus in the immediate term will be the failure of selective catalytic reduction retrofits in buses and taxis that were supposed to bring them up to Euro VI standard. Recent testing has shown the vast majority of these have failed and do pretty much nothing in the majority of cases. A Zero-Emission zone for buses, taxis in some major cities (coupled with continued support for bus operators to purchase zero emission vehicles), updates to LEZ/CAZ to charge even Euro VI heavy goods vehicles for entry, and expansion of Non-Road Mobile Machinery (NRMM) emissions controls to cities other than London seem the most likely (and effective) methods.

All the above being said, if air pollution levels do not come down to legal limits even with adoption of EVs, local authorities and central government will continue to be defeated in the courts, and may be forced into looking at widespread congestion charging outside of London (and Durham).

 

[GLC]

With regard to Zero-Emission Zones, I don't see any likely until 2030 at the earliest.

Oxford has had one for nearly 3 years now

 

[Bletchleyite]

Oxford has had one for nearly 3 years now

Though it's very small - the area covered is no bigger than the size of the pedestrianised area of larger cities. I think, though, it's seen as a foot in the door - it was easy to start small and expand compared to starting big.

For London I think we'd need to include vans even if we didn't include private cars. Vans, particularly delivery vans, are a major part of the problem. Cars are increasingly petrol anyway.

 

[Cowley]

Genuine question, without reading through the whole thing. Is this thread any different to the one below? Because it feels like we’re going over things that have already been discussed somehow?

Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

Given the significant obstacles involved with using electric cars and the massive change in infrastructure that would be required do you think it’s practical. I’m especially thinking of those that live in blocks of flats that have no choice but to park on the street or those who do long...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Mag_seven]

As there is quite a bit of overlap, please use this thread:

Do you think that the UK switching to electric vehicles is realistic?

Given the significant obstacles involved with using electric cars and the massive change in infrastructure that would be required do you think it’s practical. I’m especially thinking of those that live in blocks of flats that have no choice but to park on the street or those who do long...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks all