Un-user friendly railway: Wrongly branded trains

[bathbuses]

Of all the problems on today's railway, I can't get worked up about "First Great Western" being written on a train.

I'd sooner see the TOC-specific fares abolished. Most passengers can't tell the difference between a green train and a blue train anyway.

I think its a small part of a huge problem
The railway isn't user friendly, and there are extremely simple things that could be done to help it become a bit more user friendly, but in this case they have decided not to
The railways big problems will never be solved if there's such a can't-do attitude with the smaller details

 

[father_jack]

There's one GWR 166 still in FGW blue I believe.

But passengers being passengers etc, I had someone (grown adult no obvious or explained issues) one time going from A to C, was assisted to the platform and told to get on the train and change at B. They sat on the platform and let the train to B depart because it didn't have C (where they were going) on the front of it, just for them.

 

[XAM2175]

First Greater Western Ltd

First Greater Western Ltd, I believe.

It's like there's an echo in here

 

[Master29]

I gather this is 165's and 166's as there's a few about still.

 

[dk1]

I've seen a 745/1 turn up at Chelmsford with 'Stansted express' on the side, which confused a passenger who said out loud why the Stansted express was stopping there.

Yes Norwich services leaving Liverpool Street with Stansted Express emblazoned on the side happens several times every day.

Over at Cambridge the there are several red Gatwick Express & green GWR units now operating on the Kings Cross to Kings Lynn route. All adds a splash of colour.

Until 2019 EMR/EMT 158s had operated for years on selected NXEA/GA local services too.

 

[eastwestdivide]

Over at Cambridge the there are several red Gatwick Express

Even more confusing when Cambridge has direct services to Gatwick, but trains with Gatwick on the side that don’t go there.

 

[cocoiadrop]

Indeed I can imagine a lot of passengers who don't use the railway often, tourists especially, will panic last minute if they see a train with a brand that doesn't match the PIS or their restricted ticket. At least doing the approach used by TFL for the ex-Sliverlink Class 313's at the time, of putting a (generic) London Overground decal on the trains, should be enough of a stop gap.

It also seems to take a long while for some ToCs to repaint trains after a re-brand. As far as I know there were still some ScotRail trains running around in First livery until the late 2010s

 

[lachlan]

I often get a bus in my home city with wrong route colour coding or branding on the side. Does it really matter as long as it has the correct number & takes me where I want to go?

Yes. It’s an accessibility issue for partially sighted people who may rely on the easier to see branding.

 

[158747]

There's one GWR 166 still in FGW blue I believe.

There are eight 166s still in FGW blue, although quite soon that number will reduce, as when the refurbishment of the 165s has been completed the 166s will be next in line for refurbishment.

 

[Greg13]

It's always surprising to me that West Midlands Trains choose to run the Walsall services as a WMR service but use LNWR branded trains. Luckily it's not a line likely to have much in the way of tourists and I doubt there's any TOC restricted tickets but I do always wonder if anyone gets caught out by it particularly when you have the tannoy announcements of "a West Midlands Railway service to Walsall/RTV".

At least for those who know and expect it, it makes Aston station easier as the departure boards aren't visible on the platform so it's easiest to just recognise the WMR 323's as Sutton services and the LNWR 350's as Walsall services

 

[dk1]

Yes. It’s an accessibility issue for partially sighted people who may rely on the easier to see branding.

I would imagine regulars only rely on destination/number as happens all the time. Anyone else would just ask.

 

[Krokodil]

Yes. It’s an accessibility issue for partially sighted people who may rely on the easier to see branding.

What does a partially-sighted person do if three buses turn up in identical branding (because that's how most fleets are)? Surely everyone looks at the route number (if they can), or asks the driver what bus it is.

 

[lachlan]

What does a partially-sighted person do if three buses turn up in identical branding (because that's how most fleets are)? Surely everyone looks at the route number (if they can), or asks the driver what bus it is.

Yes if I was struggling to see (luckily my eyesight is good enough that I can usually read the numbers) I would flag down each one/make it obvious I was trying to see the number.

Doesn’t stop it from being an accessibility problem when branding doesn’t match the route number. At least in Aberdeen most people will know not to trust the branding as buses are used on the wrong routes all the time.

I would imagine regulars only rely on destination/number as happens all the time. Anyone else would just ask.

Indeed, it’s not very fun though flagging down the wrong bus.

 

[Mat17]

There's been loads of examples post-BR.

FNW were running round 101s in about 5 different liveries, none of them FNW. As well as more modern stock in Regional Railways, GMPTE and Merseyrail.

Arriva Trains Northern - ran 150s in Regional Railways, as well as 142s and 156s in Northern Spirit.

I guess until the last few months the 313 in Blue Grey would have been confusing.

I find it much worse on buses, where various First group buses might be in an historic livery (which generally look better than the modern variants) but how do you know it's a First bus and not a Stagecoach until you've flagged it down?

 

[Krokodil]

Doesn’t stop it from being an accessibility problem when branding doesn’t match the route number.

In my experience, branding is usually generic.

I find it much worse on buses, where various First group buses might be in an historic livery (which generally look better than the modern variants) but how do you know it's a First bus and not a Stagecoach until you've flagged it down?

Why does it matter whether it's First or Stagecoach? Knowing that won't tell you if it's actually going where you want it to go. That's why the route number and destination indicator are important.

Trains could do with route numbers too, plenty of Southern Region commuters knew which number would be their train.

 

[bathbuses]

Why does it matter whether it's First or Stagecoach? Knowing that won't tell you if it's actually going where you want it to go.

But increasingly people buy mobile tickets before they get on, and this is encouraged by the companies. Of course they can only be used on a First bus if it's a First ticket etc...

Anyway, I think we should probably get back to discussing the issue with trains in this part of the forum

 

[Snow1964]

I often get a bus in my home city with wrong route colour coding or branding on the side. Does it really matter as long as it has the correct number & takes me where I want to go?

But does your ticket say only valid on X branded services, as the thread is about continuing to only display a name that isn't the one branded

 

[AJDesiro]

I think maybe a system like the one that was done with WMT's 350/1 relivery would work, where they put the WMR logo on saying "I also work in the west midlands" would work quite well for the trains still in FGW livery, perhaps something like "Now known as GWR."

 

[dk1]

But does your ticket say only valid on X branded services, as the thread is about continuing to only display a name that isn't the one branded

Good point.

 

[Swanley 59]

A few months back, I waiting at Newcastle when the platform screens changed at the last minute to show that the next train was the Morpeth local rather than the delayed LNER service to Edinburgh. A Scotrail liveried class 156 duly rolled in, and rather more passengers than usual clambered aboard. To add to the confusion, the ex-Scotrail unit did not have an on-board destination display. Naturally it duly departed without any announcement of the destination...

Fortunately, the delayed LNER service was scheduled to call at Morpeth, and so the ten or so Edinburgh bound passengers were - presumably - able to continue their journeys without any additional delay.

 

[Stew998]

A friend of mine who has recently started commuting from Haywards Heath was similarly confused as to why a Southern service was a Gatwick Express train.

And even more confusingly they don't necessarily stop at Gatwick!

 

[Sussex Ben]

And even more confusingly they don't necessarily stop at Gatwick!

Case in point earlier this week when I was sat on the 17:33 London Bridge to Littlehampton (formed of GatEx stock) within earshot of the OBS:

Passenger (who I believe was trying to get to Gatwick): Does the Gatwick Express run from here (London Bridge) as well now?
OBS: No, this isn't the Gatwick Express and we don't stop at Gatwick either!

 

[Purple Train]

I wonder why the railway has wasted money on fancy new black-and-white LED display boards, which clearly display destination, calling points, number of carriages, and operator, when clearly no-one looks at them?

 

[bathbuses]

I think maybe a system like the one that was done with WMT's 350/1 relivery would work, where they put the WMR logo on saying "I also work in the west midlands"

That's a particularly bizarre situation
If this was going to happen they really should have kept the old London Midland as a single brand regret than splitting.
Or, if they were desperate to have two brands then the way EMR have done it would have worked better (EMR Regional, EMR Intercity). Two distinct brands but both clearly EMR
In fact I think London Midland had that kind of idea, branding the more local ones as London Midland City

 

[Krokodil]

I wonder why the railway has wasted money on fancy new black-and-white LED display boards, which clearly display destination, calling points, number of carriages, and operator, when clearly no-one looks at them?

I frequently get people boarding who fail to notice LED displays (both on platforms and on trains), manual announcements, automated announcements, and liveries. It's only when I go through, look at their ticket and say "this train doesn't go to Bolton" that dawning realisation comes.

 

[Mgameing123]

Very possibly
Although if it's going to be called "a Great Western Railway service" then the train should surely have Great Western Railway written on the side
I was probably wrong to say the company name should be on the train, it should be the brand of the service

That can't always be the case. Sometimes railway operators loan trains from other operators like what GWR did when the IET crisis came and who would want to rebrand a train that will be given back to the operator in a few months time.

 

[Purple Train]

I frequently get people boarding who fail to notice LED displays (both on platforms and on trains), manual announcements, automated announcements, and liveries. It's only when I go through, look at their ticket and say "this train doesn't go to Bolton" that dawning realisation comes.

Maybe some of these new PISes (such as on the 745s and 195s) that display adverts as well as train running information should be tweaked so they only show Specsavers adverts...

I am intrigued though - why do people not just look at the board? It's like going to a restaurant, not looking at the menu, and saying, "Can I have a battered sausage and chips please?"

 

[HSTEd]

I am intrigued though - why do people not just look at the board? It's like going to a restaurant, not looking at the menu, and saying, "Can I have a battered sausage and chips please?"

People get confused by contradictory information.

The only way to prevent this would be to remove all extraneous information, and paint every train in plain colours that have no relation to anything.

BTC Black and Silver for all!

 

[RailWonderer]

Over at Cambridge the there are several red Gatwick Express & green GWR units now operating on the Kings Cross to Kings Lynn route. All adds a splash of colour.

Until 2019 EMR/EMT 158s had operated for years on selected NXEA/GA local services too.

I've seen those GatEx 387s at Reading as well. Which GA locals had 158s on them? I might have seen one at Ipswich unless that was just poor memory.

 

[dk1]

I've seen those GatEx 387s at Reading as well. Which GA locals had 158s on them? I might have seen one at Ipswich unless that was just poor memory.

Certainly not Ipswich as would have been kept local to Norwich. They were booked to work 05:36 Lowestoft & 06:35 return before taking up the booked 07:57 Liverpool Lime St.

If short of units (as we were for most of the decade leading up to 2019) they would work in at 19:19 from Lime St before being used on the 19:33 Yarmouth & 21:15 Sheringham but occasionally the 21:10 Cambridge instead depending on driver availability.