Unattended bags

[Alteran Ancient]

I previously worked in a high profile environment which would see many members of the public on a daily basis. Occasionally, we would have unattended bags - unless someone quickly came to claim the bag, we would move people away from that bag, not touch it, and call the police to inspect the bag and remove and/or destroy it as necessary.

Opening any unidentified bag you cannot already see inside of is, in my opinion, taking an unnecessary risk - with my own life and the lives of others around me. Telling people to open and inspect bags could be the difference between someone keeping their face, or losing it, or worse...

 

[EM2]

As I suspected!

They will tell you what they are told, and paid, to tell you. Their aim isn't your safety, it’s keeping the trains moving.

Unmitigated tripe. I've been involved in one full evacuation of a station that was called because an item failed HOT, and I know of others.
By your logic, you don't take notice of any safety instructions or training because it comes from people employed by your TOC.

 

[EM2]

So would you have walked up to the Parsons Green device and opened it?

No, because it had visible wires.

 

[Bromley boy]

Unmitigated tripe. I've been involved in one full evacuation of a station that was called because an item failed HOT, and I know of others.
By your logic, you don't take notice of any safety instructions or training because it comes from people employed by your TOC.

Unmitigated tripe? Good grief. Who told you that? Do you believe everything some shmo appointee by your employer tells you to?

By my logic, next time I get the passcom telling me there’s a suspect package on my train, someone like you can investigate it, as the dutiful employee . I certainly won’t be! They can shove their job before I do that... and I mean it.

I have no interest in the nonsense perpetuated by my TOC. I’ve heard it all before and, frankly, I value my own safety far more than I value my job which I can very easily replace! Far more easily than a limb/my sight/my face etc!

 

[EM2]

I have no interest in the nonsense perpetuated by my TOC. I’ve heard it all before and, frankly, I value my own safety far more than I value my job which I can very easily replace! Far more easily than a limb/my sight/my face etc!

Yet I assume that you follow the Rule Book?

 

[Bromley boy]

I previously worked in a high profile environment which would see many members of the public on a daily basis. Occasionally, we would have unattended bags - unless someone quickly came to claim the bag, we would move people away from that bag, not touch it, and call the police to inspect the bag and remove and/or destroy it as necessary.

Opening any unidentified bag you cannot already see inside of is, in my opinion, taking an unnecessary risk - with my own life and the lives of others around me. Telling people to open and inspect bags could be the difference between someone keeping their face, or losing it, or worse...

Precisely!

 

[Bromley boy]

Yet I assume that you follow the Rule Book?

I try to! As I’m sure we all do. Rather more than my TOC does, in fact . That’s another discussion.

How is that relevant to this discussion, please?

 

[EM2]

I try to! As I’m sure we all do. Rather more than my TOC does, in fact . That’s another discussion.

How is that relevant to this discussion, please?

Because it suggests you have no problem following certain items of safety advice, imposed on you because of your job, but not others.
I'm wondering why they're different.

 

[Darandio]

Because it suggests you have no problem following certain items of safety advice, imposed on you because of your job, but not others.
I'm wondering why they're different.

Presumably he doesn't want to blow himself or others up. It's a logic I completely understand.

 

[Bromley boy]

Because it suggests you have no problem following certain items of safety advice, imposed on you because of your job, but not others.
I'm wondering why they're different.

They’re very precisely different because rules such as:

- Don’t exceed linespeed;

- set the DRA after entering a station on a single yellow with no starting signal;

- red lights at the rear whites at the front.

Don’t involve me risking life and limb.

How is my observance of those rules in my usual job relevant to this discussion?

 

[Bromley boy]

Presumably he doesn't want to blow himself or others up. It's a logic I completely understand.

That’s pretty much it.

Call me a coward, I signed up to drive trains, not to investigate suspect packages.

 

[EM2]

How is my observance of those rules in my usual job relevant to this discussion?

It's not just those rules, it's all the rules.
For example, walking back to lay detonators could be dangerous, especially in the dark and the wet and even more so if you're in third-rail land. But I'm sure you'd do that if it was needed?

 

[broadgage]

You don't have to actually approach the package and inspect it to apply the HOT protocol. Eg: if I can see, from 20 yards, a duffel bag lying hidden behind an door left ajar, the door in question being an old cupboard nobody's been in since BR days. I'm not going near that. I'm going to evacuate and ring it in to the police.

In the article quoted, the Oxford Circus incident involves a policeman seemingly weighing a suspect package. That's sheer idiocy - the IRA used to use magnesium tilt switches and other types of booby traps - unless he's specifically trained in bomb disposal.

To be pedantic, it would have been MERCURY tilt switches used by terrorists to detonate a bomb if moved or tampered with.
Use of same does complicate the design, since the tilt switch must be disabled when the bomb is being taken to the target, and then activated after placing it.

 

[Bromley boy]

It's not just those rules, it's all the rules.
For example, walking back to lay detonators could be dangerous, especially in the dark and the wet and even more so if you're in third-rail land. But I'm sure you'd do that if it was needed?

Laying dets? Do you know what dets actually are? They’re not comparable to an IED... Or do you believe they are?!?!

Now that you mention it, in this day and age, nope, I’d be speed-dialling the GSMR to get lines blocked before I went near the dets.

Foe goodness sake... you can’t possibly believe a member of rail staff laying dets is the same risk as approaching a potential IED in a LIDL bag?

 

[johnkingeu]

Foe goodness sake... you can’t possibly believe a member of rail staff laying dets is the same risk as approaching a potential IED in a LIDL bag?

Walking anywhere near an operational railway is orders of magnitude more dangerous than inspecting unattended luggage. The chance of unattended luggage being an about to explode bomb is very very close to zero.

 

[EM2]

Laying dets? Do you know what dets actually are? They’re not comparable to an IED... Or do you believe they are?!?!

I know exactly what dets are, I've laid them myself (I didn't always work on stations).
Did I say that they are dangerous? Did I say they're comparable to an IED? Of course I didn't.

Now that you mention it, in this day and age, nope, I’d be speed-dialling the GSMR to get lines blocked before I went near the dets.

Foe goodness sake... you can’t possibly believe a member of rail staff laying dets is the same risk ad approaching a potential IED in a LIDL bag?

Did I say that? No.
Did I ask if you're happy following one set of rules, some of which carry an element of risk, and yet not following another set, some of which also carry an element of risk? Yes.

 

[Bromley boy]

I know exactly what dets are, I've laid them myself (I didn't always work on stations).
Did I say that they are dangerous? Did I say they're comparable to an IED? Of course I didn't.

Did I say that? No.
Did I ask if you're happy following one set of rules, some of which carry an element of risk, and yet not following another set, some of which also carry an element of risk? Yes.

“Dets don’t work on stations!”. Really?

Last I checked they were a safety device in my cab I’d put onto the track. They’re triggered by a train wheel running over them, irrespective of whether they’re in a station or not.
Do you know different?! If so, please educate me further?!
Would my TCOCs or my short circuit bar work in stations?!

I’ll make it very simple-

- as a train driver, I drive according to network rail rules;

- none of them involve any personal risk to me.

- I don’t investigate suspect packages, that might involve personal risk to me!

EDIT:

2 questions:

Do I follow a set of rules in my train driving;

Yep

Do I follow “rules” that involve risk to me?

Nope.

 

[EM2]

“Dets don’t work on stations!”. Really?

What are you blathering about?!
READ what I SAID!
I know exactly what dets are, I've laid them myself (I didn't always work on stations).

Seeing as you seem to have immense difficulty with reading, I'm out.

 

[Llanigraham]

That’s not the way the protocol has been explained to me. I was told that you do approach and open packages which are deemed to meet the protocol: not hidden; not obviously suspicious; typical of their environment. Which the Parsons Green device evidently was.

A recent, viable terrorist device would have been deemed worthy of opening and inspecting by the protocol.

That renders it unfit for purpose in my view.

Then I suggest you mis-understood the training.

 

[Bromley boy]

What are you blathering about?!
READ what I SAID!
I know exactly what dets are, I've laid them myself (I didn't always work on stations).

Seeing as you seem to have immense difficulty with reading, I'm out.

Sorry, missed that. Don’t take offence.

What’s wrong with what I’m saying? The sum total of it is that, as a driver, I don’t want to go up to suspect packages and risk blowing myself up.

That ok with you?

If not, tough luck.

 

[Bromley boy]

Then I suggest you mis-understood the training.

I’ll tell you what, I’m waiting with baited breath to hear how I misunderstood it...
As I heard it with my own ears today, in fact.

 

[AlterEgo]

The only way to determine whether it is or it isn't, is to look at it.
If it's a bag sat next to a TVM, then it's not hidden, and it's typical of its location. So far, so good. Is it obviously suspicious? You don't know, so what are you going to do now?

In the scenario you describe it would not appear to be Hidden, not appear to be Obviously Suspicious, and Typical for its location, therefore satisfying the test - not suspicious.

If I thought an object was not so clear cut then I would not go and investigate it, because in my mind it has potential to be an explosive and I think it’s wrong to approach it, regardless of whatever the experts say.

 

[EM2]

Also weren’t you arguing earlier that you hadn’t received TOC training?

Correct. Your point is...?

 

[EM2]

In the scenario you describe it would not appear to be Hidden, not appear to be Obviously Suspicious, and Typical for its location, therefore satisfying the test - not suspicious.

So what do you do with it?

If I thought an object was not so clear cut then I would not go and investigate it, because in my mind it has potential to be an explosive and I think it’s wrong to approach it, regardless of whatever the experts say.

And what would you do in this instance?

 

[Bromley boy]

Correct. Your point is...?

You’ve also said:

What are you blathering about?!
READ what I SAID!
I know exactly what dets are, I've laid them myself (I didn't always work on stations).

So, what did you do before or after you worked on stations?! I’m guessing it was somewhat railway related?!

 

[AlterEgo]

No, because it had visible wires.

It only had visible wires after the detonation, where the bag had slipped down revealing the bucket and wire arrangement beneath. I’m quite sure that when it was being transported it looked like a pot of paint in a Lidl bag.

 

[EM2]

So, what did you do before or after you worked on stations?! I’m guessing it was somewhat railway related?!

I was on S&T.

 

[Bromley boy]

I was on S&T.

So never in a position to have to investigate a suspect package?!

Why make out you were?

Utterly laughable.

 

[AlterEgo]

So what do you do with it?

If it was not HOT, I would approach it with caution, because according to the protocol the bag can be reasonably assumed to be non-suspicious.

And what would you do in this instance?

I’d ring it in to 999 and Control. I’m not going near it and I don’t care what the rules say. I’m not going near something which I might reasonably suspect, using the protocol, to be a bomb, which could kill me.

I’m a bit concerned that people are blindly following training that says that they should approach packages which they reasonably suspect could be a bomb. Get yourself and everyone else out of there.

 

[EM2]

So never in a position to have to investigate a suspect package?!

I never said that I was. I said that I had laid dets before I'd worked on stations. It's really not difficult to understand.