Undercharged for peak train

[Cheeseman]

Has anyone ever been charged an off-peak fare for a peak journey and the ticket actually issued? This happened to me today on a Trainsplit booking. Only trouble was, I couldn’t get through the barriers but as I had a seat reservation coupon they had to let me in.
1814 LONDON to READING. Off peak ticket issued

Not that i’m complaining!

 

[furlong]

The website is more likely to have been correct about the ticket restrictions than the ticket barrier! Ticket restrictions are complicated and websites have to pass an accreditation process before they are allowed to issue tickets but the system the barriers use still relies on old technology that can only make an approximate determination of ticket validity. Doesn't the barrier merely say something like 'seek assistance' rather than 'not valid' as it truly doesn't know? 2D barcode readers have appeared at Paddington, which is perhaps a sign GWR will be joining the trend towards printing barcodes on everything and tracking individual ticket usage centrally. Then the gate would have had access to your corresponding itinerary and should have opened.

 

[Intermodal]

I do believe this to be technically valid, but it seems to be a potential mistake. The ticket restrictions state that an off peak ticket is valid after 0930 (generally), or not on a list of evening peak services. The closest evening peak service listed is the 1815 from Paddington to Reading, but no 1814 service is listed as not valid on any off-peak ticket out of Paddington. Perhaps the timetable was updated but the ticket restriction was not? Either way, as it stands, it appears valid to me.

It is clear in this case why TrainSplit would sell the ticket and why the barrier staff would be confused and attempt to reject it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The restriction text does mention a nonexistent 1815, but the encoded restrictions here:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=RDG&grpd=0403&tkt=CDS

say not valid from Paddington 1814-1816 (they appear to do this to allow for minor variations), so it should not have been issued and was indeed not valid. However as it was I would say the staff have done the right thing (other than withdrawing and issuing a free replacement for investigation) by allowing it because it was with an itinerary or reservation. Passengers should not lose out by way of a missold ticket.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Has anyone ever been charged an off-peak fare for a peak journey and the ticket actually issued? This happened to me today on a Trainsplit booking. Only trouble was, I couldn’t get through the barriers but as I had a seat reservation coupon they had to let me in.
1814 LONDON to READING. Off peak ticket issued

Not that i’m complaining!

There is no such thing as a "peak journey" or "peak time train". Both of those are fundamental misconceptions the TOCs like to impress upon the travelling public.

What there is, is a restriction code in conjunction with all non-Anytime tickets. And that restriction code will set out what restrictions, if any, there are on the use of that ticket.

Some Off-Peak tickets are valid for use at any time - for example Shrewsbury to Aberystwyth Off-Peak Return. Other Off-Peak tickets are much more limited in when they can be used, e.g. Birmingham to London Off-Peak Return. The question of whether a train can be used with a given ticket depends on what the restriction code associated with your ticket says.

What appears to have happened here is that a change to the scheduled departure time of the 18:14 service has not been reflected in the text and/or electronic version of the restriction code of the ticket. This is a common occurrence but GWR Paddington gateline staff are known for incorrectly rejecting such tickets - even when an itinerary and/or seat reservation entitling travel on the train in question is produced!

 

[Hadders]

We need to know where the OP was travelling from and to and what tickets were issued.

I doubt the ticket was London Terminals to Reading, more likely to have been 'somewhere else' to Reading which has no evening peak restrictions at all.

 

[paddington]

A few years ago a guard sold me an off-peak ticket which was not valid on her train (it would have been valid on the next one).

 

[yorkie]

Has anyone ever been charged an off-peak fare for a peak journey and the ticket actually issued? This happened to me today on a Trainsplit booking. Only trouble was, I couldn’t get through the barriers but as I had a seat reservation coupon they had to let me in.
1814 LONDON to READING. Off peak ticket issued

Not that i’m complaining!

There are loads of data errors with GWR restriction codes in particular at the moment.

They are contractually obliged to let you travel (regardless of whose mistake it was, and I can assure you it is GWR's mistake).



Unfortunately GWR have been found breaching contract and consumer laws by denying other passengers travel recently, and they are admitting to such breaches on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1035266641947451392

Hi. If the ticket isn't valid for the train you are boarding then our staff will advise this. You would then either need to pay the correct fare for that train by purchasing an excess. 1/2

Their attempts to blame retailers are not limited to their Twitter feed; they have made similar slanderous remarks at gatelines (including Paddington), ticket offices, information booths and on board trains, as well as by email from customer services.


@Cheeseman did they try to blame the retailer in your case or did they let you through without quibble?

 

[WelshBluebird]

So who do they blame if they are the retailer?

 

[Intermodal]

So who do they blame if they are the retailer?

Clearly the customer is at fault for accepting such an obviously invalid ticket!

</sarcasm>

 

[yorkie]

A forum member was incorrectly denied travel at London Paddington on the 1833.

GWR have repeatedly refused to accept it was their data error and have repeatedly refused to accept their staff should have allowed travel.

Mark Hopwood was emailed yet 10 days later there has been no reply (only an acknowledgement from another member of staff who intercepted the email)

Does anyone know how to actually speak to Mark Hopwood?

Do we need to get one of our forum members who is a solicitor to make contact?

If anyone has any ideas on how to get all these customers to be adequately compensated and issued an apology, please do get in touch, as I'd love to hear from you.

In the meantime I would encourage all customers affected to log a case with Transport Focus and contact their MPs. Even if only charged a small amount or delayed a short time, it's the principle that matters. Some people have been extensively delayed or charged a huge sum, and the frustration and embarrassment is difficult to quantify.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A forum member was incorrectly denied travel at London Paddington on the 1833.

Assuming J9:

Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1830–1840 on any TOC

It's the text restriction that is wrong. Which one is legally binding? Interestingly, LNR use some restrictions that are stricter in the encoded data than in the text and it's actually deliberate, there's an easement ("A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time") that is impossible to actually implement.

 

[Intermodal]

So basically, as a customer, in many cases there is absolutely no way I can be sure of the validity of my ticket and I am liable to be challenged at any point and be potentially forced to pay more if I lose this gamble? Is this correct?

 

[rg177]

A few years ago a guard sold me an off-peak ticket which was not valid on her train (it would have been valid on the next one).

I've been sold a TPE only Doncaster to Sheffield single by a Northern guard before which seems like an even more bizarre error

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Assuming J9:

Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1830–1840 on any TOC

It's the text restriction that is wrong. Which one is legally binding? Interestingly, LNR use some restrictions that are stricter in the encoded data than in the text and it's actually deliberate, there's an easement ("A connecting service can be used to complete a journey begun at a valid time") that is impossible to actually implement.

What counts is the most favourable option presented to the customer. If a customer is told they can use a ticket on a given train, that is a binding term of the contract. If they are referred to the text of a restriction then that text is a binding term of the contract. If they are referred to electronic data (though this doesn't happen anywhere I'm aware) then this is a binding term of the contract.

 

[Cheeseman]

We need to know where the OP was travelling from and to and what tickets were issued.

I doubt the ticket was London Terminals to Reading, more likely to have been 'somewhere else' to Reading which has no evening peak restrictions at all.

It was London terminals to Reading.

 

[Cheeseman]

There are loads of data errors with GWR restriction codes in particular at the moment.

They are contractually obliged to let you travel (regardless of whose mistake it was, and I can assure you it is GWR's mistake).

View attachment 51836

Unfortunately GWR have been found breaching contract and consumer laws by denying other passengers travel recently, and they are admitting to such breaches on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/GWRHelp/status/1035266641947451392


Their attempts to blame retailers are not limited to their Twitter feed; they have made similar slanderous remarks at gatelines (including Paddington), ticket offices, information booths and on board trains, as well as by email from customer services.


@Cheeseman did they try to blame the retailer in your case or did they let you through without quibble?

GWR was easily persuaded. But I’d already had the problem at the other end of the journey at Bridgend and Arriva forced me to pay the upgrade.

 

[Cheeseman]

Is it fair to conclude at least that our fares system is a hopeless complicated mess?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Is it fair to conclude at least that our fares system is a hopeless complicated mess?

I think you may be preaching to the choir

 

[Hadders]

Is it fair to conclude at least that our fares system is a hopeless complicated mess?

It's always going to be complicated with 2,500+ stations covering Anytime, Off Peak, Off Peak Day etc. Then add in different routes between the same places and that's before you look at Advance fares.

The problem is inadequately trained staff who refuse to look things up.

 

[furlong]

The problem is inadequately trained staff who refuse to look things up.

Or companies that sign up to franchise agreements then fail to invest sufficiently in staff training and support systems so as to adhere completely to their side of the bargain, coupled with a seeming reluctance of the DfT and ORR to pursue fully their enforcement obligations.

 

[sheff1]

The problem is inadequately trained staff who refuse to look things up.

Or refuse to look things up and refuse to accept what should be incontrovertible proof when it is shown to them.

 

[Paul Kelly]

The restriction text does mention a nonexistent 1815, but the encoded restrictions here:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=1072&dest=RDG&grpd=0403&tkt=CDS

say not valid from Paddington 1814-1816 (they appear to do this to allow for minor variations), so it should not have been issued and was indeed not valid.

The restrictions are encoded asymmetrically however. If the fare was not a single from Paddington to Reading, but instead a return from Reading to Paddington, the relevant restriction code is C7 and the restrictions listed here:

http://www.brfares.com/#faredetail?orig=RDG&dest=PAD&grpo=0403&grpd=1072&tkt=CDR

show "Not valid to depart LONDON PADDINGTON 1815–1816 on any TOC" and indeed GWR's own website is still showing the Off-Peak Day Return from Reading as valid on the 18:14 as of tomorrow; see attached screenshot.