Unelectrified transfer lines in London (Private Eye)

[Railcar]

The current Private Eye (8th May - 21st May 2020) includes this intriguing paragraph from 'Dr B Ching'

'Among the places where diesels move goods on electrified routes because too many connecting tracks aren't electrified are two lines in London of less than a mile each where electric trains can't transfer between electrified mainlines'

Any ideas? The only one less than a mile that I can think of is between Carlton Rd Junction and Junction Road Junction. The Dudding Hill line is surely more than a mile long.

 

[Bald Rick]

The current Private Eye (8th May - 21st May 2020) includes this intriguing paragraph from 'Dr B Ching'

'Among the places where diesels move goods on electrified routes because too many connecting tracks aren't electrified are two lines in London of less than a mile each where electric trains can't transfer between electrified mainlines'

Any ideas? The only one less than a mile that I can think of is between Carlton Rd Junction and Junction Road Junction. The Dudding Hill line is surely more than a mile long.

Carlton Rd - Junction Road comes up regularly; and the amount of freight that would switch to electric haulage if it was (expensively) electrified is precisely nil. There’s plenty of people in the industry who still haven’t realised that.

Acton Wells to Acton Main Line is a better example, as is the London Gateway branch, Acton Wells to West London Jn, and Acton Wells to Harlesden J via Acton Canal Wharf.

The trouble with all these connections, though, is that they are linking up different feeding sections, which means complex electrical sectioning (as per Gospel Oak - Barking), and that makes short stretches very expensive.

As ever, treat the writings of “Dr B Ching” with extreme caution.

 

[MarlowDonkey]

Any ideas? The only one less than a mile that I can think of is between Carlton Rd Junction and Junction Road Junction.

The link at Acton between the Great Western and North London comes to mind. Not that the line from Paddington has any electric freight.

 

[Ianno87]

Not freight, but the connection between MML and HS1 at St Pancras is not electrified.

 

[Bald Rick]

The link at Acton between the Great Western and North London comes to mind. Not that the line from Paddington has any electric freight.

No, but there are quite a few Acton - GEML or Barking, and Acton - ‘Southern’ services that could switch to electric if it was provided. The southern services would need a 92 obviously.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not freight, but the connection between MML and HS1 at St Pancras is not electrified.

Not used either!

 

[Aictos]

Not used either!

Correct me if I'm wrong but if a train did want to access the International platforms from the Midland Mainline then the signaller needs to request a slot from the shunter?

Not that it's going happen often apart from maybe engineering trains.

 

[30907]

No, but there are quite a few Acton - GEML or Barking, and Acton - ‘Southern’ services that could switch to electric if it was provided. The southern services would need a 92 obviously.

Not disagreeing but -
what proportion of the total have extensive unelectrified mileage elsewhere?
what proportion of the remainder would also need last-mile diesel capability?

 

[Ianno87]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if a train did want to access the International platforms from the Midland Mainline then the signaller needs to request a slot from the shunter?

Not that it's going happen often apart from maybe engineering trains.

It'll be a slot request between Three Bridges ROC (MML) and Ashford IECC (HS1) - the connection is fully signalled.

 

[baz962]

Carlton Rd - Junction Road comes up regularly; and the amount of freight that would switch to electric haulage if it was (expensively) electrified is precisely nil. There’s plenty of people in the industry who still haven’t realised that.

Acton Wells to Acton Main Line is a better example, as is the London Gateway branch, Acton Wells to West London Jn, and Acton Wells to Harlesden J via Acton Canal Wharf.

The trouble with all these connections, though, is that they are linking up different feeding sections, which means complex electrical sectioning (as per Gospel Oak - Barking), and that makes short stretches very expensive.

As ever, treat the writings of “Dr B Ching” with extreme caution.

Is it just me , or does Dr B Ching make you think of Beeching

 

[greatkingrat]

That is the point, it isn't his real name!

 

[Bald Rick]

Correct me if I'm wrong but if a train did want to access the International platforms from the Midland Mainline then the signaller needs to request a slot from the shunter?

Not that it's going happen often apart from maybe engineering trains.

Slot between Three Bridges ROC and Ashford IECC

 

[Bald Rick]

Is it just me , or does Dr B Ching make you think of Beeching

Makes me think of Wolmar...

 

[Aictos]

It'll be a slot request between Three Bridges ROC (MML) and Ashford IECC (HS1) - the connection is fully signalled.

Ahh okay so I was partly wrong, thank you and @Bald Rick for correcting me.

 

[K.o.R]

The trouble with all these connections, though, is that they are linking up different feeding sections, which means complex electrical sectioning (as per Gospel Oak - Barking), and that makes short stretches very expensive.

A bit more than just a neutral section in the middle then, I take it?

 

[hwl]

Carlton Rd - Junction Road comes up regularly; and the amount of freight that would switch to electric haulage if it was (expensively) electrified is precisely nil. There’s plenty of people in the industry who still haven’t realised that.

Acton Wells to Acton Main Line is a better example, as is the London Gateway branch, Acton Wells to West London Jn, and Acton Wells to Harlesden J via Acton Canal Wharf.

The trouble with all these connections, though, is that they are linking up different feeding sections, which means complex electrical sectioning (as per Gospel Oak - Barking), and that makes short stretches very expensive.

As ever, treat the writings of “Dr B Ching” with extreme caution.

Carlton Rd - Junction Road: that only starts to potentially be useful if the MML has been electrified further northwards to Toton* (e.g. electric to/from Diesel swap there) along with other local schemes at the southern end (e.g. East London construction materials sidings, London Gateway branch)

*Ideal location given driver hours to enable out and back runs during a shift for both diesel and electric portion drivers. E.g. Peak quarries - Toton; Toton - Dagenham / Thurrock etc. and v/v

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Is it just me , or does Dr B Ching make you think of Beeching

That is the point, it isn't his real name!

It is Private Eye and it is satire. Like lunchtime O’boulais in the 80s

 

[Snow1964]

The current Private Eye (8th May - 21st May 2020) includes this intriguing paragraph from 'Dr B Ching'

'Among the places where diesels move goods on electrified routes because too many connecting tracks aren't electrified are two lines in London of less than a mile each where electric trains can't transfer between electrified mainlines'

Any ideas? The only one less than a mile that I can think of is between Carlton Rd Junction and Junction Road Junction. The Dudding Hill line is surely more than a mile long.

I wonder if the Acton Central - Brentford / Kew bridge triangle is one of these two routes.

It used to be electrified on 4 rail system when North London line trains ran to the now disused platforms at Kew Bridge, nowadays just a gap in third rail system since passenger services were discontinued about 80 years ago

 

[cyclebytrain]

Not used either!

Isn't that almost self reinforcing though? Please correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't the only locomotives & units that can operate with HS1 signalling, electric? *

*Tunnel Thunderbirds I suppose. Are they cleared outside HS1?

 

[Bald Rick]

A bit more than just a neutral section in the middle then, I take it?

No, but you don’t really want a neutral section a short, inclined track with signals neArby.

 

[HSTEd]

The southern services would need a 92 obviously.

Pretty sure suggesting that third rail can support freight operations is considered heresy by many in the industry!

 

[thenorthern]

With freight in London though it's not as simple as electrify that short section as electrifying a short section and electric trains can then run anywhere. There is of course the problem that the only trains that can operate on both the 25 kV AC overhead and 750v DC third rail are the Class 92s. Then there is the problem that a lot of places freight goes to is on unnelectrified sections meaning a locomotive change would be needed anyway.

It sounds like Private Eye are trying to imply there is a simple solution to a complex problem.

 

[Helvellyn]

I'll throw this put there, but prior to the lockdown many cities were struggling with air quality, with diesels being particularly "guilty". Expansion of low emission zones, banning wood burning stoves, bigger pushes for electric vehicles yet rail could be perceived as not doing its bit. We all know the press can't (or won't) do nuances and that if "diesel gaps" are seen to be bringing diesel traction into the metropolis they won't care about what happens further out.

So we could see pressure for infill electrification or other novel solutions. Wasn't it the Pea Soupers of the early 1950s that saw a mad rush to eliminate steam on former Great Eastern metals after the Clean Air Acts were passed?

I wouldn't be surprised that if on the MML for example pressure was placed to switch to electric traction at Wellingborough Yard. A Class 88 or 93 type loco would then be able to use diesel just for the very last bit. Or we end up with battery shunting locos to do the final legs, a modern day Class 14.

Slightly off topic I know but don't ignore the ability of politicians to pass legislation and leave others to worry about the fine detail or the inefficiencies introduced.

I also wonder how long before Dr B Ching starts grinding their axe at Chiltern Railways and Marylebone, now very much London's diesel last stand. At least most obviously to the public.

 

[Joseph_Locke]

Pretty sure suggesting that third rail can support freight operations is considered heresy by many in the industry!

I suspect it's a current draw issue - 300A off the 25kv AC is close to 10kA on the DC (yes, I know, but you wouldn't need many heavy freights in a section to trip the breakers)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

No, but you don’t really want a neutral section a short, inclined track with signals neArby.

So not impossible I assume but horrendously expensive as in circa 4 million pounds per mile well exceeding even Manchester-Preston costs per mile?

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I'll throw this put there, but prior to the lockdown many cities were struggling with air quality, with diesels being particularly "guilty". Expansion of low emission zones, banning wood burning stoves, bigger pushes for electric vehicles yet rail could be perceived as not doing its bit. We all know the press can't (or won't) do nuances and that if "diesel gaps" are seen to be bringing diesel traction into the metropolis they won't care about what happens further out.

I also wonder how long before Dr B Ching starts grinding their axe at Chiltern Railways and Marylebone, now very much London's diesel last stand. At least most obviously to the public.

Well I for one really hope that Dr B Ching and the other press really do start beating the drum about this. Marylebone/Chiltern is to me higher priority than small gaps initially anyway.

 

[paul1609]

It'll be a slot request between Three Bridges ROC (MML) and Ashford IECC (HS1) - the connection is fully signalled.

How is it fully signalled? MML uses AWS/TPWS, St Pancras International (HS1) uses LZB.
I know that one of the FOCs had a safety case for transfers between ST Pancras International (HS) and the ECML using (I think?) class 66 locos but I dont think anybody has a safetycase for the MML link so I presume it could only be used under possession?

 

[jopsuk]

I think the aim with Marylebone has to be, must be, to electrify it before the Class 16x fleet become life expired

 

[jyte]

Marylebone/Chiltern is to me higher priority than small gaps initially anyway.

Totally agreed, I get that line is difficult south of Wembley but it's still a conspicuous presence (or maybe absence, depending on how you look at it).

 

[HSTEd]

I suspect it's a current draw issue - 300A off the 25kv AC is close to 10kA on the DC (yes, I know, but you wouldn't need many heavy freights in a section to trip the breakers)

It is somewhat absurd given that freight operations apparently proceed perfectly adequately with a fraction of that installed power across the southern region.

A class 66 only has ~2.2MW at rail after all.