Unit Doors (if that’s the correct terminology)

[CentralTrainer]

Is there anything in the Rulebook etc. (or specified elsewhere) about the status of the doors at the front of the unit behind the cab.

Currently on a WMR (West Mids Rail) service made up of two sets that are not interconnected - and sat next to the cab door of the front of the rear set - with a member of staff (obviously the Guard) in that front cab - but with the door propped wide open (photo attached)

Only asking as I’ve seen this for the first time ever in 30+ years of travel and was wondering what the lie of the land is?

On the plus side - it’s given me a load of time to study the button, screen and controls layout of the (what would be) driver cab - which I very rarely get the chance to

 

[hexagon789]

Is there anything in the Rulebook etc. (or specified elsewhere) about the status of the doors at the front of the unit behind the cab.

Currently on a WMR (West Mids Rail) service made up of two sets that are not interconnected - and sat next to the cab door of the front of the rear set - with a member of staff (obviously the Guard) in that front cab - but with the door propped wide open (photo attached)

Only asking as I’ve seen this for the first time ever in 30+ years of travel and was wondering what the lie of the land is?

I've seen a few left open over the years. I had a trip in the rear First Class cabin of a 170 back in September and the guard left the door open when he took a seat in the passenger accommodation. From my seat I could see we were doing a steady 95mph up the E&G!

Personally, I'd have thought it should be kept closed even if a member of staff is nearby, but I don't know the true situation.

 

[CentralTrainer]

Ahhh - all becomes clear - the guard has just come out of the cab - picked up his mobile phone he was charging from one of the power points under the first row of seats behind the cab door - disappeared back inside - and slammed the door on us.

 

[skyhigh]

Personally, I'd have thought it should be kept closed even if a member of staff is nearby, but I don't know the true situation.

Should always be shut if the cab is unattended or in use for driving. Sometimes the locks are a bit dodgy and they work themselves open though.

If the guard is in the cab, no issue at all.

 

[hexagon789]

Ahhh - all becomes clear - the guard has just come out of the cab - picked up his mobile phone he was charging from one of the power points under the first row of seats behind the cab door - disappeared back inside - and slammed the door on us.

That's quite funny, because that's exactly what the guard on my train was doing - charging his phone!

Should always be shut if the cab is unattended or in use for driving. Sometimes the locks are a bit dodgy and they work themselves open though.

If the guard is in the cab, no issue at all.

He was in one of the double seats immediately adjacent but not in the cab itself for a good 15 mins or so of the Stirling to Glasgow Queen Street run of an ex-Inverness. Door open whole time until the returned to the cab as we were passing Cowlairs.

 

[LowLevel]

As long as the guard is in there or next to it, it doesn't really matter if it's open.

 

[skyhigh]

He was in one of the double seats immediately adjacent but not in the cab itself for a good 15 mins or so of the Stirling to Glasgow Queen Street run of an ex-Inverness. Door open whole time until the returned to the cab as we were passing Cowlairs.

Cab isn't unattended so no issue there.

 

[hexagon789]

Cab isn't unattended so no issue there.

So as long as he stayed next to the door it was fine then? (Not that I was saying it wasn't or was concerned about it really. I'd be more concerned if he'd left the immediate area though.)

 

[skyhigh]

So as long as he stayed next to the door it was fine?

I don't see any issue with that.

 

[mmh]

Happens all the time. A few weeks ago a fantastic guard came out of a back cab of a 158 and heard a lovely little boy asking his mum why he couldn't go in there. "No, that's the end of the train, it's dangerous," said mum. "Yes it is, look - you can see behind you!" The guard was more than happy to let him stare behind for a while, and answer him later when he was wondering why the door to the saloon kept opening (this being a TFW train of course it was overcrowded)

 

[pdeaves]

Anecdote: several years ago on a hot bank holiday, a train to a popular tourist spot was so full that not only was the 'guard's cab' door wide open, he actively encouraged some people to enter to relieve the pressure in the vestibule.

 

[hexagon789]

I don't see any issue with that.

I didn't either I just wondered what policy was on leaving the door open while not in the cab, and sat in a passenger seat charging a phone.

 

[mmh]

So as long as he stayed next to the door it was fine then? (Not that I was saying it wasn't or was concerned about it really. I'd be more concerned if he'd left the immediate area though.)

What would you be concerned about if he had left?

 

[hexagon789]

What would you be concerned about if he had left?

Well I understand the controls bar the emergency brake plunger(?) would be dead, but is it really a brilliant idea to leave an unattended cab unlocked and door open?

 

[skyhigh]

I didn't either I just wondered what policy was on leaving the door open while not in the cab, and sat in a passenger seat charging a phone.

The truth is cab doors are not particularly secure, and even with full access to the cab you couldn't really do much. As long as you're in or near to the cab there's not really any problem with having the door open.

Well I understand the controls bar the emergency brake plunger(?) would be dead, but is it really a brilliant idea to leave an unattended cab unlocked and door open?

You're right, if you're not in or near the cab the door should be closed.

 

[Intermodal]

I didn't either I just wondered what policy was on leaving the door open while not in the cab, and sat in a passenger seat charging a phone.

I don't really understand what this forum's obsession with the 'policy' on various things is.

I don't begrudge people for asking questions - but is "I saw the cab door open and someone was sat is there" really a worthy conversation topic?

There isn't a policy for leaving the cab door open while charging your mobile phone at a nearby seat. Why would there be? Staff are empowered with the safety of thousands of people's lives on a daily basis - they can make their own assessments and judgments of things and are encouraged to do so.

If this issue ever ended up on a manager's desk, it'd be laughed out of the room. The priorities of railway staff are very different from what enthusiasts perceive to be important issues. Would you make a forum thread about a McDonald's who left their office door open to the lobby while charging their phone inside said office? I really don't get it.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Years ago I was on a SWT slammer and noticed an intermediate cab door (in an 8-car formation) was flapping about meaning anyone could have stepped in and started playing around with the controls (though I assume even CEPs had some sort of protection that would prevent any major issues being caused that way). This was in pre- smartphone/social media days so I walked back hoping a guard would be in the rear set's van area. Thankfully there was, I think he had to wedge it shut with a bit of folded newspaper as a "temporary" fix.

 

[NorwichRailFan]

I was on a Greater Anglia 755 from Sheringham to Norwich Last September where something similar happened. I was sitting right by the rear cab and it was left unlocked the whole way and the Guard wasn't in there most of the time so anyone could have walked in. It was flaping open and shut the whole journey.

 

[LowLevel]

Years ago I was on a SWT slammer and noticed an intermediate cab door (in an 8-car formation) was flapping about meaning anyone could have stepped in and started playing around with the controls (though I assume even CEPs had some sort of protection that would prevent any major issues being caused that way). This was in pre- smartphone/social media days so I walked back hoping a guard would be in the rear set's van area. Thankfully there was, I think he had to wedge it shut with a bit of folded newspaper as a "temporary" fix.

Anything from the 80s or before with that kind of layout has been prone to that issue - 156s are particularly bad when in multi for the doors having seemingly been secure "popping open" when the train goes over pointwork. Wedging Metro newspapers in it used to be the favourite.

To be fair the worst real consequence whilst still not desirable should someone with no technical knowledge start fiddling about is that the brakes might go in and an angry guard or driver has to stomp down and see what has caused it.

 

[L401CJF]

There are a few 507/8s where the cab door lock is a bit dodgy and easily opens over a jolt and then slides around on every corner. Not uncommon to see a middle cab door on a 6 car sliding around with nobody in it.

I was on one a month or so ago and the middle cab door was sliding around on a 6 car. Told the guard who locked, it, only for it to open itself again no sooner as he had walked away. Of course on a 507/508 the drivers compartment is locked and the door controls are inactive when not keyed in, but the end emergency doors are accessible.

Cab doors arnt the best

 

[norbitonflyer]

Years ago I was on a SWT slammer and noticed an intermediate cab door (in an 8-car formation) was flapping about meaning anyone could have stepped in and started playing around with the controls (though I assume even CEPs had some sort of protection that would prevent any major issues being caused that way). This was in pre- smartphone/social media days so I walked back hoping a guard would be in the rear set's van area. Thankfully there was, I think he had to wedge it shut with a bit of folded newspaper as a "temporary" fix.

Been there, seen that. Used the seat!

 

[wobman]

I don't really understand what this forum's obsession with the 'policy' on various things is.

I don't begrudge people for asking questions - but is "I saw the cab door open and someone was sat is there" really a worthy conversation topic?

There isn't a policy for leaving the cab door open while charging your mobile phone at a nearby seat. Why would there be? Staff are empowered with the safety of thousands of people's lives on a daily basis - they can make their own assessments and judgments of things and are encouraged to do so.

If this issue ever ended up on a manager's desk, it'd be laughed out of the room. The priorities of railway staff are very different from what enthusiasts perceive to be important issues. Would you make a forum thread about a McDonald's who left their office door open to the lobby while charging their phone inside said office? I really don't get it.

I've the same view as yourself regarding this, the guard was in control of the safety of the cab, most cabs have mo facility to charge their phone which is used for safety critical work.
The mobile phone is essential for the guards whilst working a train, so I'm intrigued how the guard could charge the phone if its running low on charge without doing as they did !

I do feel traincrew are critised a lot for using common sence, they are in a no win scenario in many incidents.

 

[boiledbeans2]

Last year, I was riding the Class 153s for the first time in TfW land. I noticed that on some units, only half the rear cab was locked, i.e., the driver's side was locked, but the opposite side and the gangway door was accessible. So it resembled the Tyne and Wear Metro cabs, AKA a toilet cubicle. Is this normal operation for the Class 153s?

 

[L401CJF]

Last year, I was riding the Class 153s for the first time in TfW land. I noticed that on some units, only half the rear cab was locked, i.e., the driver's side was locked, but the opposite side and the gangway door was accessible. So it resembled the Tyne and Wear Metro cabs, AKA a toilet cubicle. Is this normal operation for the Class 153s?

No, The flyscreen fitted to the end gangway door should be unlocked and folded over to block off the second man side of the cab

 

[Sheridan]

No, The flyscreen fitted to the end gangway door should be unlocked and folded over to block off the second man side of the cab

On some of them the flyscreen is bent out of shape and getting it to lock in place can be tricky so it sometimes gets left.

 

[Trainfan2019]

Anecdote: several years ago on a hot bank holiday, a train to a popular tourist spot was so full that not only was the 'guard's cab' door wide open, he actively encouraged some people to enter to relieve the pressure in the vestibule.

I had this happen to me a few years ago. Got on an EMR 158 at Stockport towards Sheffield. 2 very packed carriages on a Sunday and I was just able to get on to stand the entire journey. Was surprised when the guard allowed a few people to sit and stand in the rear cab. I was so wedged in the vestibule and couldn't get to the rear cab! Are the rear cab doors often opened to alleviate overcrowding?

 

[Towers]

I had this happen to me a few years ago. Got on an EMR 158 at Stockport towards Sheffield. 2 very packed carriages on a Sunday and I was just able to get on to stand the entire journey. Was surprised when the guard allowed a few people to sit and stand in the rear cab. I was so wedged in the vestibule and couldn't get to the rear cab! Are the rear cab doors often opened to alleviate overcrowding?

Not really, and whilst this might be done as an act of helpfulness, it really shouldn't be. There is a 'butterfly' valve door release switch mounted at floor level on the secondman's side of a 158 cab, and even with covers fitted it could quite easily be knocked or kicked if the area is full of standing passengers, with the result being an emergency brake application and a door open in traffic - that's a bad day anyway, but even moreso if the vestibule is wedged full of people when the door opens...

Non-public areas are non-public for a reason, and best kept that way!

 

[SCDR_WMR]

I've the same view as yourself regarding this, the guard was in control of the safety of the cab, most cabs have mo facility to charge their phone which is used for safety critical work.
The mobile phone is essential for the guards whilst working a train, so I'm intrigued how the guard could charge the phone if its running low on charge without doing as they did !

I do feel traincrew are critised a lot for using common sence, they are in a no win scenario in many incidents.

Indeed, however if they had their revenue machine with them it has a handy USB charge function with a 60 minute timer.

That and part of WMT equipment policy is for your work mobile to be fully charged at the start or your shift, and despite the Samsung Note being poor for dropping power fairly quickly, it will definitely last a shift. Let's not go into whether it was their work/person mobile though eh...

Perfectly acceptable to sit next to the cab and charge their work phone anyway.