Unite Network Rail Strikes Off

[norbitonflyer]

Exactly, outside my polling station were groups of Ukippers telling people to vote leave. Mad to think hostility like that doesn't have an effect on people

And that is against election law. As I have acted as a teller myself, we have strict instructions that we should only speak to people as they leave the polling station (i.e when it is too late to influence them), and our only role is to collect voter numbers so that those charged with the task of "knocking up" (reminding people to vote) know not to bother them. We should not ask people how they voted. (It is also usually accepted for tellers from different parties to compare notes)

Intimidation, or canvassing on or near the polling station, should be reported to the police or the returning officer (through the person in charge of the polling station)

 

[Mwanesh]

How long can the members afford to loose pay. This month alone they are loosing 2 weeks wage if we count Xmas enhancements. The vote is getting closer. How will they react should acceptance be approved by the members.

 

[weeklycommuter]

As a lay person with no stake either way, I listened to most of the interview this morning, and despite the fact that I don't partularly like Michal Husain's style, I thought that towards the end when Lynch went into a rant about why didn't she ask him about millionaires and 'the working class' and why the questions were all government questions 'through a BBC filter', that he has rather run out of arguments. His responses were not measured and just relied on talking over Husain.
He was also very touchy on the subject of the narrowing majority for continued industrial action.

Not sure why 21,053 RMT members were eligible to vote for another six months of industrial action in the ballot result announced 16 November but only 18,540 were eligible to vote in the e-referendum result announced 12 December on the Network Rail offer. Does the offer not apply to 2,513 RMT members eligible to vote on the industrial action? I note 1,240 of 21,053 (6%) voted No to strike action on 16 November and 5,598 of 18,540 (30%) voted to accept the Network Rail offer.

DEFEND JOBS, PAY AND CONDITIONS - Network Rail

www.rmt.org.uk

16th November 2022
Dear RMT Network Rail Member,
DEFEND JOBS, PAY AND CONDITIONS - Network Rail
I write to advise you that the ballot has now closed and the result is as follows: -
Are you prepared to take strike action?
Number of individuals who were entitled to vote in the ballot:21053
Number of votes cast in the ballot:14767
Number of individuals answering “Yes” to the question:13511
Number of individuals answering “No” to the question:1240
Number of spoiled or otherwise invalid voting papers returned:16
Are you prepared to take industrial action short of a strike?
Number of individuals who were entitled to vote in the ballot:21053
Number of votes cast in the ballot:14767
Number of individuals answering “Yes” to the question:13837
Number of individuals answering “No” to the question:856
Number of spoiled or otherwise invalid voting papers returned:74

DEFEND JOBS, PAY AND CONDITIONS - NETWORK RAIL

www.rmt.org.uk

12th December 2022
Dear RMT Member,
DEFEND JOBS, PAY AND CONDITIONS - NETWORK RAIL
The e-referendum on Network Rail’s proposals has now closed. Full details of the proposals were made available to members and on a turnout of 83% nearly two-thirds of members voted to reject them. It is clear beyond all doubt that their proposals are unacceptable to members.
The full result is as follows: -
Eligible to vote:18540
Votes cast:15370 (83%)
Voting to Accept:5598 (36%)
Voting to Reject:9772 (64%)

 

[74A]

The e vote was only a gauging of members feelings not a legally binding vote.

I assume the reason for the difference in the number of people eligible to vote is that the RMT do not have e contact details for all its members.

 

[mac]

If the offer from Network Rail isn't accepted before the new year could they then say that the offer is for 2023 and 24 instead of 22 and 23

 

[markymark2000]

I don't think it has been said here but which employees do Unite primarily represent within Network Rail or is it a few signallers, a few maintenance staff etc (a little bit of everyone). I also ask with Unite settling their dispute, what impact, if any, will that have if future action is taken by the RMT (In that, if they represent 40 signallers, as the dispute is settled, these signallers should really no longer be in dispute and therefore return to work as normal on the strike days so opening up more boxes so more trains can run. If they represent more maintenance staff, that may mean more engineering works could take place perhaps when the lines are shut due to the strikes, enable a bit more work to be undertaken to have less disruption in the future. You get the sort of thing that I mean).

 

[Mag_seven]

Can individual RMT members accept NR's offer individually or is it all collective?

 

[AVK17]

Can individual RMT members accept NR's offer individually or is it all collective?

No, it's accepted through collective bargaining.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think it has been said here but which employees do Unite primarily represent within Network Rail or is it a few signallers, a few maintenance staff etc (a little bit of everyone). I also ask with Unite settling their dispute, what impact, if any, will that have if future action is taken by the RMT (In that, if they represent 40 signallers, as the dispute is settled, these signallers should really no longer be in dispute and therefore return to work as normal on the strike days so opening up more boxes so more trains can run. If they represent more maintenance staff, that may mean more engineering works could take place perhaps when the lines are shut due to the strikes, enable a bit more work to be undertaken to have less disruption in the future. You get the sort of thing that I mean).

Electrical Control Room Operators in a few places, and some maintenance team members (but not many).

 

[Railwayowl80]

Can someone help me out understanding how unions excepting pay offers works like for example say some of my work colleagues are unite and they settle for 5% but RMT continues to strike and get a better offer say for arguments sake 7% does that mean you could have people doing the same job but on different pay because of the pay rise hope that makes sense

 

[exbrel]

in post 122 above, the figs for the 12th Dec vote show 3170 did not vote, why? couldn't be bothered, or the vote for strike action couldn't fail, any suggestions?

 

[Thirteen]

Andrew Haines mentioned on BBC Breakfast that two Unions had accepted the deal with a third (TSSA) possibly on Thursdays, Unite is one of them, who's the other?

 

[HST274]

I heard Mr Lynch interviewed on 5Live this morning and when asked about the acceptance of the Unite union and the suspension of TSSA action to consider the offer he dismissed both unions as "minuscule".

He did sound less composed than in recent times, more left-wing rhetoric than in recent interviews, and there is still a big difference between what he says (conditions being imposed, half the staff being made redundant) and what the other side were saying (no changes to conditions, no compulsory redundancies)

After listening to the bbc4 interview I switched to 5live and found myself listening to that one as well. The interviewer and Mick lynch both were much more composed. The questions parroted less the 'right wing rhetoric' and Mick himself sprouted less rants. Instead the interviewer cleverly found two messages, one from a heavily disrupted nurse who supported the strike but was being badly affected (emphasis on others being less generous) and the other a message from an rmT member who thought the union was not acting in the best interest of the members and if it was good enough for unite etc.

 

[Annetts key]

It’s not quite that simple. Work is indeed moving to nights - in fact it already has. The changes to rostered nights are however not for everyone ‘on the tools’ in maintenance. Many are already on the ’new’ roster pattern already, and a majority actually gain from the new patterns.

Who do you think gains and why?

The vote that concluded yesterday was not a ballot, but a referendum run by the RMT, and doesn’t need to comply with legislation on secret ballots. AIUI it was was done online (No way could a postal vote have been done in a week with the current postal dispute).

The referendum was conducted by Choice Voting on behalf of the RMT.
I don’t know all the reasons why there are differences in the number of eligible members between the official ballot and the referendum, but a couple of problems that are real, are, members do not always remember to inform the union when they change their email address. Plus some members do not provide an email address. As the referendum was conducted online, the RMT sent out the details via email. A great deal of effort was made to assist those members having problems. But some members may have left asking for help too late.

Andrew Haines mentioned on BBC Breakfast that two Unions had accepted the deal with a third (TSSA) possibly on Thursdays, Unite is one of them, who's the other?

There are only three unions involved in the national talks/negotiations: RMT, TSSA and Unite. No others. So I can only conclude that he was confused.

Of those, within the grades of Network Rail employees that this dispute is about, RMT has by far the largest number of members. TSSA mainly represents management and some technical grades. Unite mainly represents Electrical Control Room Operators and some (electrical) distribution and plant staff.

If both TSSA and Unite members return to work, it’s not likely to make any significant difference to the disruption.

The dispute with Network Rail has absolutely nothing to do with DOO. DOO is a big factor in the dispute between the RMT and the Train Operating Companies (that is those companies controlled directly or indirectly by the government).

Question, for those that are saying that the RMT should settle this, the union would love to. Striking is a last resort, due to there being no progress in the talks. Which terms and conditions would you wish to trade away? How many nights would you be prepared to work? Would you be happy if your employer could give you a minimum notice of 48 hours to change the start and/or finish time of your shift(s) by two hours with no limit on how often they could do this? Would you like being forced to retire at an age decided by your employer?

Remember, railway employees have to comply with the strict rules on alcohol and drugs. Do you not want railway employees to have any kind of social life? already many staff can be rostered to work 39 weekends in a year.

 

[LAX54]

How long can the members afford to loose pay. This month alone they are loosing 2 weeks wage if we count Xmas enhancements. The vote is getting closer. How will they react should acceptance be approved by the members.

I assume that those who are normally 'booked off' 25th/26th as opposed to rest days will not get their money this year, although they will get enhancements for the 27th, could prove an expensive Christmas for some, especially after Mr Lynch said we will not strike over Christmas !

 

[Bald Rick]

Who do you think gains and why?

The people who will get better pay from the new arrangements, before allowing for the pay rise.

And, as you know, there are many people already on Ts and Cs which can require the ‘new’ level of weekend / night working.

 

[exbrel]

i've just found 3 or so mins of the R4 interview, and he was getting a bit ratty over "what on average have your members lost in wages during the strike's to date"... whereas normally he deals with interviewers calmly, could it be because his aims have not been as successful as he wanted, similar to someone else to the east...
Also micks "redistribution of wealth" brings the french and russian revolutionists to mind.

 

[Annetts key]

I assume that those who are normally 'booked off' 25th/26th as opposed to rest days will not get their money this year, although they will get enhancements for the 27th, could prove an expensive Christmas for some, especially after Mr Lynch said we will not strike over Christmas !

This answer is only for maintenance and CAPEX/Works Delivery staff. I don’t know the T&Cs of other staff. Answer is complex, as it depends on an individuals current T&C. However, normally staff should not be ‘rostered not required’. Therefore they should normally be rostered in (where permissible under their T&C) where work has already been allocated to them, or they should be on a ‘free’/rest day not worked.

If their conditions are such that they cannot be made to work Christmas Day and Boxing Day, they can tell their manager that they are not available.

The people who will get better pay from the new arrangements, before allowing for the pay rise.

And, as you know, there are many people already on Ts and Cs which can require the ‘new’ level of weekend / night working.

Any pay rise would apply to all staff in the grades affected.

I’m not talking about the 39/39/65 midweek nights/weekends/weekend turns. That came in with 2b/c over ten years ago (lower limits apply to staff employed before 2b/c that have not had promotion).

I’m taking about the change in the definition of how many midweek night turns are considered to be ‘a week’. At the moment, for most (but not all) maintenance and CAPEX/Works Delivery staff, one (or more) night turn(s) on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday is considered to count as a week of midweek nights, and hence is counted in the 39 weeks that an individual can be rostered.

But under Network Rails changes, they redefine this, see the extract below:

8. Midweek Night Working
8.1 Except for those aged under 18, who are not permitted to work night shifts, the standard rostering commitment for all colleagues is aligned to their terms of employment, and as further explained below. Subject to business need and workload, colleagues may volunteer to be rostered for additional night work.
8.2 For rostering purposes, a week of nights is defined any 3 or more-night shifts rostered Monday to Thursday.

 

[footprints]

Andrew Haines mentioned on BBC Breakfast that two Unions had accepted the deal with a third (TSSA) possibly on Thursdays, Unite is one of them, who's the other?

The three agreements mentioned were with the TSSA for management grades (accepted in August), Unite, and the ongoing TSSA ballot for 3,500 of their other staff which concludes tomorrow.

 

[Scotrail12]

Lynch came across pretty unpleasant in the Madeley interview on GMB - he might be a Scrooge but if he doesn't see the effect that these strikes have on the Christmas season and is only looking at things through his own lens then that's a tad worrying.

 

[AVK17]

Of those, within the grades of Network Rail employees that this dispute is about, RMT has by far the largest number of members. TSSA mainly represents management and some technical grades. Unite mainly represents Electrical Control Room Operators and some (electrical) distribution and plant staff.

If both TSSA and Unite members return to work, it’s not likely to make any significant difference to the disruption.

The dispute with Network Rail has absolutely nothing to do with DOO. DOO is a big factor in the dispute between the RMT and the Train Operating Companies (that is those companies controlled directly or indirectly by the government).

Question, for those that are saying that the RMT should settle this, the union would love to. Striking is a last resort, due to there being no progress in the talks. Which terms and conditions would you wish to trade away? How many nights would you be prepared to work? Would you be happy if your employer could give you a minimum notice of 48 hours to change the start and/or finish time of your shift(s) by two hours with no limit on how often they could do this? Would you like being forced to retire at an age decided by your employer?

Remember, railway employees have to comply with the strict rules on alcohol and drugs. Do you not want railway employees to have any kind of social life? already many staff can be rostered to work 39 weekends in a year.

I must admit I am becoming increasingly annoyed that my pay rise as a member of staff in an Operations grade is entirely dependent on changes to Maintenance terms and conditions. I voted no in the referendum out of solidarity with my maintenance colleagues who will be shafted by the proposed changes, but if those T&C changes weren't part of the deal it would have been an unequivocal yes from me.

Note that I'm annoyed at the company for tying my pay rise up in a deal which has absolutely nothing to do with me or my grade, rather than the union for fighting for its members. I understand why the union has to fight it but I am hearing more and more talk among my Ops colleagues that we're just being used as the muscle in a fight that isn't anything to do with us. Of course that's exactly the reaction the company wants - divide and conquer!

 

[Watershed]

Note that I'm annoyed at the company for tying my pay rise up in a deal which has absolutely nothing to do with me or my grade, rather than the union for fighting for its members. I understand why the union has to fight it but I am hearing more and more talk among my Ops colleagues that we're just being used as the muscle in a fight that isn't anything to do with us.

It's the same issue with non-frontline colleagues, for whom a payrise is seemingly dependent on a deal being agreed with the RMT - even though there's no reason that the two couldn't have been uncoupled, as happened at Network Rail with bands 1-4.

I really feel for everyone who's caught up in the collateral damage.

 

[Thirteen]

Lynch came across pretty unpleasant in the Madeley interview on GMB - he might be a Scrooge but if he doesn't see the effect that these strikes have on the Christmas season and is only looking at things through his own lens then that's a tad worrying.

The media, Mark Harper and indeed the bosses of Network Rail in a way got their gotcha moment with the RMT with both the ballot results and the deals with the other unions and Lynch did not help himself by dismissing the other unions accepting deals with Network Rail which was another gotcha moment.

 

[Bald Rick]

I’m not talking about the 39/39/65 midweek nights/weekends/weekend turns.

I was though, in response to an earlier post by someone else.

I’m taking about the change in the definition of how many midweek night turns are considered to be ‘a week’. At the moment, for most (but not all) maintenance and CAPEX/Works Delivery staff, one (or more) night turn(s) on Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday is considered to count as a week of midweek nights, and hence is counted in the 39 weeks that an individual can be rostered.

I think if you asked most people what working “a week of nights” meant, they would be a bit surprised if it meant one night in the week….

Note that I'm annoyed at the company for tying my pay rise up in a deal which has absolutely nothing to do with me or my grade,

The company, I’m sure, would happily offer operations staff a pay deal separately, but AIUI the RMT is not keen on that (for very obvious reasons).

 

[Bill57p9]

Can someone help me out understanding how unions excepting pay offers works like for example say some of my work colleagues are unite and they settle for 5% but RMT continues to strike and get a better offer say for arguments sake 7% does that mean you could have people doing the same job but on different pay because of the pay rise hope that makes sense

Normally (I can't be certain NR would follow) with collective bargaining, an employer will "recognise" a single TU for each "trade group", i.e. a clearly defined group of workers. The terms and conditions for each trade group will follow the agreement with the recognised TU for that trade group, regardless of which TU individuals are members of themselves.

Whether to join a TU and which is, of course, personal choice.

 

[Annetts key]

I think if you asked most people what working “a week of nights” meant, they would be a bit surprised if it meant one night in the week….

And if you asked most people, they would look at you strangely when you explain that on Network Rail maintenance and CAPEX/Works Delivery, a week starts on a Friday and ends on a Thursday.

If the rosters proposed by the company over the last few years were more reasonable, then maybe both sides could get to a middle ground more easily. After all, it’s better for both sides if any agreements are clear. Some of the rosters that have been proposed by the company have been absolutely atrocious.

I think most shift workers would actually prefer a week of nights to be four consecutive night turns. But what the company want is total flexibility. That then often results in horrible rosters.

The point is, that in normal circumstances, more constructive negotiations would take place. Unfortunately, it appears that the line from Network Rail is “this is what we want” and even if there is movement towards a middle ground by the Network Rail negotiating team, it’s getting torpedoed, then at the next meeting when the unions ask about it, it becomes clear that it’s back to the previous position. Which is most frustrating.

The company, I’m sure, would happily offer operations staff a pay deal separately, but AIUI the RMT is not keen on that (for very obvious reasons).

Earlier in the year, there was no pay rise for anyone represented by the grades that the RMT has bargaining rights for. Also for most, if not all of the grades covered by TSSA and Unite. Network Rail made no opening offer whatsoever. Then later on, they offered 2%. Even then, it was conditional on the company making savings above the £400 million of cuts they were already being required to carry out, due to instructions from the government.

So, as I understand it, the so called savings from Modernising Maintenance are contributing to the pay rises for all Network Rail employees.

Meanwhile, every time a strike occurs, Network Rail says it costs them lots of money.

It really does not make any sense. I’ll leave it to the readers here to speculate why.

Normally (I can't be certain NR would follow) with collective bargaining, an employer will "recognise" a single TU for each "trade group", i.e. a clearly defined group of workers. The terms and conditions for each trade group will follow the agreement with the recognised TU for that trade group, regardless of which TU individuals are members of themselves.

Whether to join a TU and which is, of course, personal choice.

It’s not that simple.
Some grades have a single trade union recognised for the purpose of collective bargaining rights. But some grades have joint bargaining rights that involve multiple unions.

In any case, Network Rail invited all three trade unions into the talks for the grades that we are taking about.

The grades that are only represented (in terms of bargaining rights) by the TSSA have already been done separately.

 

[Bald Rick]

Earlier in the year, there was no pay rise for anyone represented by the grades that the RMT has bargaining rights for. Also for most, if not all of the grades covered by TSSA and Unite. Network Rail made no opening offer whatsoever. Then later on, they offered 2%. Even then, it was conditional on the company making savings above the £400 million of cuts they were already being required to carry out, due to instructions from the government.

That’s a very carefully stated view of events.

The opening offer was ‘at least 2%’ for this year, with more to follow depending on talks on how best to pursue the modernisation. Within a few weeks this became 4% (for this year) plus 2+2% for 2023, with the second 2% conditional on the company making the savings through the maintenance modernisation. As you know, the company has said it is implementing them, so the 2+2% became 4%.

The offer now stands at 5% + 4%, with the extra 1% in year 1 funded through additional efficiency in staff processes across the grades (not affecting rosters or jobs), and not from finding any new money.

So, as I understand it, the so called savings from Modernising Maintenance are contributing to the pay rises for all Network Rail employees.

That’s not correct. The £400m pa saving in operational costs breaks down to:

£170m through reducing headcount in management (achieved)
£100m through maintenance modernisation (about to start)
£130m from various smaller initiatives across the whole business (underway)

 

[gazzaa2]

I do think the RMT will eventually concede and put the NR offer again but without recommendation. I just can't see NR offering a different deal.

It's pure political warfare now. Lynch has become the Scargill-esque bogeyman to the government and the right wing media and they'd sacrifice the railways to beat him, as they did the mines. They put the DOO in at the last minute purposely, they actively don't want the dispute resolved, they want to make an example out of Lynch and his union.

The government will be prepared for this to go on for years.

 

[winks]

if cost reductions are funding a two year pay deal for Network Rail staff, How are future pay deals going to be funded …?

 

[Railwayowl80]

Normally (I can't be certain NR would follow) with collective bargaining, an employer will "recognise" a single TU for each "trade group", i.e. a clearly defined group of workers. The terms and conditions for each trade group will follow the agreement with the recognised TU for that trade group, regardless of which TU individuals are members of themselves.

Whether to join a TU and which is, of course, personal choice.

Thanks for clearing that up