I travel on the Avanti West Coast Service to and from Glasgow fairly often and find that the more northerly part of the journey can cause awful motion sickness with the rocking and rolling of the carriage. However, this doesn't seem to happen on every journey on this line with Avanti. Is there a reason that this is sometimes the case? Could it be different depending on where I sit on the train or the type of train? I really want to know if this is something I can avoid or reduce because it is really ruining my travel experience!
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Unsteady, nausea inducing Avanti services
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I would start by trying to compare the trips that you took and did not feel nausea with the trips that you did feel nausea. Were you riding forward or backward? Were you sitting next to a window? Were different classes of trains involved? IIRC, some of these trains have tilting mechanisms, and some do not.
nlogax
Established Member
If you're sitting at either end of a carriage over the bogies then I suspect you'll have a less than pleasant ride. Same happened to me only last week and it was a pretty rough 400 miles. It did get me wondering about overal Pendo ride quality though, and whether this is a more generally observed issue on the WCML.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
Avanti use tilting trains, so my first thought is that it's probably the tilting as that can induce nausea in thise more prone to motion sickness; the trains are otherwise among the smoothest riding in the UK.
All of Avanti's trains do tilt but depending where the OP starts, TPE is an option from Wigan/Preston northwards to Glasgow.
Definitely the track, as I had a ride in a 390 one way and a 397 the other and the 390 was very smooth. The 397 had a tendency to get very unsettled in places.
AlterEgo
Veteran Member
If you keep looking out of the window you'll reduce your chances of feeling motion sickness.
godfreycomplex
Established Member
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The Crawford Churn, as it is known, is sadly quite a common phenomenon. As suggested above, sitting in the middle of the coach, looking out of the window (in daylight) and keeping as cool as possible are the only remedies I’ve found as another regular traveller in that neck of the woods
I have done many thousand of miles on the 390 Pendolino’s, since their introduction, and have never personally had a problem with their ride, they to me are pretty smooth riding, due to the tillt damping the ride. The change in horizon can be nausea inducing to some people, but most people seem fine with it whenever travel on them. The worst for this was the APT as it over compensated With its tilt, which caused some nausea, I never travelled on it unfortunately, and there was the infamous press trip and inauguration, where some press member felt nauseous, but this was also due to them having had bit too much to drink the night before.
The trains to head for if you looking for non tilt ride, are the TPE 397’s between Man Airport and Glasgow-Edinburgh, and 221 super Voyagers on the few services they the work north of Preston, they have 6 degrees of tilt compared to the 390’s 9 degrees, so less tilt, so less llikely induce tilt nausea.
The trains to head for if you looking for non tilt ride, are the TPE 397’s between Man Airport and Glasgow-Edinburgh, and 221 super Voyagers on the few services they the work north of Preston, they have 6 degrees of tilt compared to the 390’s 9 degrees, so less tilt, so less llikely induce tilt nausea.
MrJeeves
Established Member
I'm quite lucky as to not suffer from motion illness (unless I'm already unwell), but even so on Avanti services I've sometimes ended up feeling this way once I head north from Carlisle.
I think next time I will try sitting towards the middle of the coach, as typically I am towards the ends, and see if that improves the experience next time.
I think next time I will try sitting towards the middle of the coach, as typically I am towards the ends, and see if that improves the experience next time.
As someone who constantly "runs hot", this is especially tricky!
So, very oddly, I think the best journey (I.e. least nausea) is in the quiet coach right at the front (destination Glasgow Central) next to cyclist reserved seats, backwards facing, no window. But I think that may have been a fluke or due to a 2hr delay just outside of Preston that perhaps slowed the journey or gave my brain a break!
I think my worst experience was when I sat in standard premium forward facing seat with view out window. Today I think my nausea was exacerbated by strong wafts of weed coming from somewhere too. Deeply unpleasant!
I have always suffered motion sickness in cars, but never on trains before doing the run between Glasgow-Preston.
N.b. I always try and sit forward facing
Also, don't know what a bogie is and how do I check the class of train?
I think my worst experience was when I sat in standard premium forward facing seat with view out window. Today I think my nausea was exacerbated by strong wafts of weed coming from somewhere too. Deeply unpleasant!
I have always suffered motion sickness in cars, but never on trains before doing the run between Glasgow-Preston.
N.b. I always try and sit forward facing
Also, don't know what a bogie is and how do I check the class of train?
MrJeeves
Established Member
Essentially the wheel sets under the trains. On Avanti services, these are always under the ends of each coach.
Typically on the front/back of the train, or on the side at the front or back.
This one is a Class 390 (Pendolino), unit 156.
Iskra
Established Member
If you are travelling in the lead coach I believe the tilt mechanism isn’t as effective as this coach leads and the others react to its movements (simple explanation) which can make it more nauseating in my experience.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
As TPE's trains don't tilt, so it seems a reasonable assumption you are unfortunately one of those who are more sensitive to tilting trains.
Do you mean the lead coach tilts more or less?
This is very helpful to understand.
Can I ask, just out of interest, why do some trains tilt and others don't?
It’s not that it tilts less but as you say it leads the rest of the train and sets the tilt. The first 2 carriages are generally the worst for it. Try walking about coach J or K, or A/B depending on direction anywhere above Carlisle and you will certainly smack into something quite easily. It’s always interesting watching the caterers balance trays full of dishes in and out of the kitchen.
hexagon789
Veteran Member
The 390s (and 221s) were introduced some 20 years ago by Virgin trains. At the time the maximum permitted speed on the line from London Euston to Glasgow via Preston (West Coast Main Line) was 110mph, while other mainlines permitted 125mph.
This was partly due to the curvy nature of the WCML. Virgin introduced tilting trains to speed up journeys (British Rail had unsuccessfully trialled them before in the late-70s/early 80s), tilting permits faster speeds in curves than non-tilting trains and allowed the WCML to become a 125mph railway, though only for tilting trains.
Tilting is actually for comfort, it isn't dangerous to take curves at the tilting speeds without tilting but it can feel uncomfortable due to the cornering forces.
Tilting, or rather the higher permitted speeds it enabled, allows London to Glasgow in about 4h30 hours, before it took mostly 5h25.
As TPE' trains don't tilt they are limited to a maximum of 110mph and slower speeds in curves, they take about 15 mins longer Glasgow to Carlisle compared to Avanti because of this.
pokemonsuper9
Established Member
To add to that, for most companies, realtime trains (detailed mode) will tell you the train's number, and you can get the Class from that too, without having to find the right spot on the train.
Interesting! For trains that go at very high speed, such as TGV or Shinkansen, I'm guessing these aren't tilting trains? Or maybe they are? Does the age of the tracks in the UK affect the comfort of the journey?
Thanks!
hexagon789
Veteran Member
A very few Shinkansen tilt ever so slightly, 1 degree against 8 for Avanti Pendolinos. They do that on the oldest Japanese high-speed lines as they have tighter curves than the newer ones, tilting just 1 degree allows them to do the same speeds as newer lines.
TGVs don't tilt, but some other trains in Europe do.
Yes, track quality will affect ride. Usually worse on busy sections of line with lots of train movements as of course it means the rails wear quicker.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
If you sit in the front coach it will be rougher as there's nothing to predict the tilt from, so you may wish to avoid that.
As I understand it.
Track on curves is canted (aka banked) and all trains tilt as a result of this. This both helps keep the train on the track and makes it more comfortable for passengers by turning "lateral Gs" into "vertical Gs".
However, the cant of the track is a compromise. Unlike a roller coaster, which always passes any track section at more or less the same speed, trains can pass a track section at any speed from zero to the maximum line speed. A track that is ideally banked for a given speed will be over-banked for lower speeds and under-banked for higher speeds.
"tilting trains" add an active mechanism to the train that tilts the bodies of the carriages. This, in principle at least, allows higher speeds on the same line while maintaining acceptable comfort.
In practice though, tilting trains have proven a bit of a white elephant. They add significantly to the maintenance cost and reduce the bodyshell size that will fit within the loading gauge making the interior more cramped while the gains in practice have been questionable. British rail experimented with tilting trains, building "experimental" and "prototype" versions of the APT, but they never built a production model. After privitisation Virgin Trains introduced the Penolinos (class 390) and Super-Voyagers (class 221) with tilt, however the 140 mph top speed of the pendolino was never used in service.
After virgin lost the crosscountry franchise, the new Crosscountry operator disabled the tilt functionality on their trains, so the only remaining tilting trains in the UK are the avanti pendolinos and super-voyagers. Avanti's super-voyagers are soon to be replaced by non-tilting AT-300 variants (classes 805 and 807). The new rolling stock for high speed 2 will also be non-tilt.
It remains to be seen what the future holds for Avanti's super-voyagers and pendolinos.I think there is a good chance that the super-voyagers will end up cascaded to crosscountry who are likely to disable tilt on them to match their existing fleet. As for the pendolinos I expect at least some of them to remain on classic WCML services, but with the majority of their fleet, including their flagship new HS2 trains, being non-tilt will Avanti or their successor consider it worthwhile to maintain the tilt on them?
I would not be at all surprised if, in 10 years time, there are no more tilting trains in the UK.
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Shaw S Hunter
Established Member
To explain tilt nausea in layman's terms it's what can happen when the brain receives different signals from the eyes and ears regarding the surrounding environment. A fully compensating tilt mechanism will eliminate the gravitational sensation detected by the ears during cornering but the eyes, if able to see out of the train window, will convey a rather different message. Those who are susceptible will thus experience tilt nausea. Those who are prone to motion sickness are thus advised to take a seat with a view of the outside world and facing forward as this provides a tiny bit of advance warning. In theory when travelling at night tilt nausea should be much less likely.
However to demonstrate just how good Pendolinos are at their job I offer the following anecdote. On one of my first trips back from Euston on a Pendolino I happened to be reading something, so not looking outside, as the train approached Berkhamstead. This is where the line has a significant reverse curve ie a hard (in railway terms) curve one way followed immediately by one the other way. In the days of loco-hauled operation trains had to actively brake for this section but not so for tilting trains.
Thus it was that I become just slightly aware of the hard curve but when I glanced up and looked out of the window I found myself looking over the top of the station buildings at the sky. The mechanical signal from my ears was enough to let me know the train was on a curve so the visual signal was perfectly acceptable. Indeed it was at that moment that I truly understood just what a clever piece of kit a tilting train really is as the train had not had to brake for this section. While the additional complexity of the tilting mechanism does seem likely to rule out further builds of tilting trains there can be no doubt that the technology has made a significant difference to journey times where it has been deployed.
As for Carlisle to Glasgow I would in any case recommend looking outside on the curvy sections as the scenery there is rather splendid and too often overlooked in discussions of scenic rail routes.
However to demonstrate just how good Pendolinos are at their job I offer the following anecdote. On one of my first trips back from Euston on a Pendolino I happened to be reading something, so not looking outside, as the train approached Berkhamstead. This is where the line has a significant reverse curve ie a hard (in railway terms) curve one way followed immediately by one the other way. In the days of loco-hauled operation trains had to actively brake for this section but not so for tilting trains.
Thus it was that I become just slightly aware of the hard curve but when I glanced up and looked out of the window I found myself looking over the top of the station buildings at the sky. The mechanical signal from my ears was enough to let me know the train was on a curve so the visual signal was perfectly acceptable. Indeed it was at that moment that I truly understood just what a clever piece of kit a tilting train really is as the train had not had to brake for this section. While the additional complexity of the tilting mechanism does seem likely to rule out further builds of tilting trains there can be no doubt that the technology has made a significant difference to journey times where it has been deployed.
As for Carlisle to Glasgow I would in any case recommend looking outside on the curvy sections as the scenery there is rather splendid and too often overlooked in discussions of scenic rail routes.
I love the tilting BTW. It makes me feel as if I'm on one of those exotic Japanese-style trains. I can pretend the Howgills are actually Mount Fuji.