Up and down

[GuyBarry]

Hi - can anyone here point me to an explanation of how "up" and "down" lines are determined when neither direction is towards London? Thanks.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Historically, it was based on where the company's headquarters or a major city was, as were mileages. So, for example, Marylebone is located at 205m 77ch from Manchester via Woodhead and the GCR, though the directions have been changed at some point so trains travelling to Marylebone are on the Up line.

A couple of other examples: Nuneaton - Leicester is Up towards Leicester, Birmingham - Derby (via Tamworth) is Up towards Derby, the Hope Valley is Up towards Sheffield, Guide Bridge - Stockport is Up towards Stockport and at the Manchester end the rump of the Woodhead route is Up towards Hadfield.

 

[GuyBarry]

Thanks. Is there any way that I can find out which direction on a given line is "up" or "down"? From what you say it all seems a bit arbitrary.

 

[edwin_m]

Sectional Appendices can be downloaded from the Network Rail website, but are rather huge and turgid. Otherwise buy a TrackAtlas or the individual regional map books.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Thanks. Is there any way that I can find out which direction on a given line is "up" or "down"? From what you say it all seems a bit arbitrary.

Buy a set of quail maps?

 

[Tomnick]

The Sectional Appendix (available from the transparency section of Network Rail's website, although that might not be right up to date) will give you the definitive answer. The Quail maps are an excellent reference too, and easier to follow - a bit more historical information in there too regarding former railway companies for each route.

Historically, it was based on where the company's headquarters or a major city was, as were mileages. So, for example, Marylebone is located at 205m 77ch from Manchester via Woodhead and the GCR, though the directions have been changed at some point so trains travelling to Marylebone are on the Up line.

I've said the same thing plenty of times, but, looking into it a bit further, I'm certain that it's actually one of the many railway urban myths! I can't find any evidence of the Up and Down having being swapped at any point, and indeed some evidence to show that Manchester to Sheffield was the 'Up' direction at the time of the London Extension opening. I can only conclude that it's always been that way!

 

[CallySleeper]

Thanks. Is there any way that I can find out which direction on a given line is "up" or "down"? From what you say it all seems a bit arbitrary.

If you tell us the specific line(s) you're after we will probably be able to help.

 

[CyrusWuff]

I've said the same thing plenty of times, but, looking into it a bit further, I'm certain that it's actually one of the many railway urban myths! I can't find any evidence of the Up and Down having being swapped at any point, and indeed some evidence to show that Manchester to Sheffield was the 'Up' direction at the time of the London Extension opening. I can only conclude that it's always been that way!

I stand corrected. Having just seen the 'box diagrams for Grendon Underwood before and after the opening of the GW&GC Joint Line, it was indeed Up towards Marylebone even then, just the mileages were measured from the Manchester end.

 

[Senex]

The Great Central seems to have been a bit of an oddity, with the up direction being away from its HQ even when as the MS&L it was essentially an east-west line. As has been noted, the mileposts continued to run from zero at Manchester London Road even after the building of the London Extension. In the absence of better information, could it be that the fact that MS&L trains ran for three quarters of a mile in the up direction on the LNW line on leaving Manchester was the origin of this usage?

 

[edwin_m]

Some non-London companies probably chose their zero mileage point to be HQ location, for example Lancashire and Yorkshire (Manchester Victoria), North Eastern (York) and North British (Edinburgh). Others certainly didn't, for example Midland (St Pancras), and Caledonian (Carlisle). In all cases there were probably routes with alternative zero points, for example the Midland started a branch line at zero if its junction with a London route was trailing (so avoiding a mileage reversal).

 

[Senex]

The absolute consistency of the Midland mileposts comes from the complete re-measurement and re-posting of the system in Edwardian times. As you note, the main series is from London and runs through by the shortest route wherever possible, with new sequences from trailing junctions. Thus the main series runs from St Pancras via the Bedford avoiding line, Trent, the Erewash Valley, the Old Road, and the Whitehall Curve to Carlisle. The major "different" sequence is the West Line, with its zero at London Road Jn in Derby, posted direct via Camp Hill. Before this work the Midland posts offered very much more variety. Another company that undertook a really thoroughgoing re-posting about the same time was the North Eastern.

 

[pdeaves]

An oddity is in the Welsh valleys, where it's up to the mountains and down to Cardiff.

 

[edwin_m]

An oddity is in the Welsh valleys, where it's up to the mountains and down to Cardiff.

But that actually makes total sense because Down trains from the Valleys pass through Cardiff Central westbound, as do Down trains on the main line.

 

[krus_aragon]

But that actually makes total sense because Down trains from the Valleys pass through Cardiff Central westbound, as do Down trains on the main line.

Perhaps not confusing on today's map (if you're coming via Queen St, rather than the Radyr loop line), but bear in mind that the Taff Vale Railway was built before any hint of a South Wales Main Line existed. All the local independent railways followed suit and decided that up would be away from Cardiff. It makes sense when you can see those blooming big mountains right in front of you...