Up/Down

[Tomnick]

A bit of a simplistic explanation, there are many instances of the zero mileage being a junction for example. Eagles explanation is the best rule of thumb, but there'd probably an exception to the rule, as with anything on the railway.

Two exceptions that I can think of - through Nottingham station (between Mansfield Jn and Nottingham East), the mileage is still measured from St Pancras via Melton, but Up is now towards Trent. The situation is the same on the preserved GCR (Up towards London but mileage increasing from zero at Manchester), and I guess it'd be similar on the portions of the London Extension still forming part of the national network. Both of those are down to changes to the Up/Down designations at some point in history.

 

[Muzer]

It still has information/help points on it though...

Thinking about it, it probably does... when did the platform actually go out of public use? It doesn't have any "1" signs, nor does it have the LED dot-matrix information screens.

 

[Eagle]

The inevitable follow-up question is how does a layperson/enthusiast/non-staffmember find out how the lines are designated/which way the mileposts run?

Short of actually going and looking at the mileposts from a train, you could look up mileages of stations or of lines on Phil Deaves's very comprehensive directory site. The definitive answer would be to look at the Sectional Appendices (slightly out-of-date versions are available to download on Network Rail's website, but they're hidden away so you'll need to run a search), which not only has mileages, but also labels every line as, say, the Up Fast or the Down Platform Loop or such.

Incidentally, sometimes the departure board at my local station (Welwyn Garden City) will list a train as departing from DFL (down fast lane, I assume). Most people wouldn't know that this means Platform 3. Why not just put Platform 3 on the board?

Actually it doesn't. WGC doesn't have any platforms on the fast lines, platform 3 is the Down Slow platform (1 is Up Back, 2 is Up Slow and 4 is Down Back). Looks like an error in the timetable where for some reason the system wrongly thinks the train is going to arrive on the fasts, and then doesn't convert it to a platform number because there isn't one for the DFL.

...and I guess it'd be similar on the portions of the London Extension still forming part of the national network. Both of those are down to changes to the Up/Down designations at some point in history.

The only part of the GCR London Extension still using Manchester-based mileages is the approach to Marylebone. The rest of the Aylesbury line uses the Met's mileage system from Baker Street.

 

[benk1342]

Actually it doesn't. WGC doesn't have any platforms on the fast lines, platform 3 is the Down Slow platform (1 is Up Back, 2 is Up Slow and 4 is Down Back). Looks like an error in the timetable where for some reason the system wrongly thinks the train is going to arrive on the fasts, and then doesn't convert it to a platform number because there isn't one for the DFL.

Ah, I see! I knew that the "fasts" were the through tracks in the middle, but since they don't have any platforms I assumed that 2 and 3 got "promoted" to U(D)FL since that's where the fast(ish) trains stop.

When I first moved here and didn't have an instinct yet about which platforms were likely to be for which trains, a train I was getting one evening from WGC to Hitchin was listed as DFL. I asked at the window and was told it would be platform 3, so I just assumed DFL meant 3, which led to my whole set of misconceptions!

Thanks!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The definitive answer would be to look at the Sectional Appendices (slightly out-of-date versions are available to download on Network Rail's website, but they're hidden away so you'll need to run a search), which not only has mileages, but also labels every line as, say, the Up Fast or the Down Platform Loop or such.

Found them. So cool. Thank you.

 

[Eagle]

Found them. So cool. Thank you.

Bear in mind they're only accurate to the beginning of April 2009, and don't show anything not owned by Network Rail (namely: HS1, the ELL, the Heathrow spur and loads of freight terminals).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Thanks for all that---
The inevitable follow-up question is how does a layperson/enthusiast/non-staffmember find out how the lines are designated/which way the mileposts run?

Buy the Quail regional track maps (eg at Ian Allan shops).
Gives mileages and line designations and a host of other detail.

 

[Eagle]

Buy the Quail regional track maps (eg at Ian Allan shops).
Gives mileages and line designations and a host of other detail.

The sectional appendices are more detailed, more recent (in most cases) and free of charge :P

 

[Zoe]

The sectional appendices are more detailed, more recent (in most cases) and free of charge

You can only get the latest version online if you are staff.

 

[Eagle]

You can only get the latest version online if you are staff.

But the 2009 version is up there (and four out of five of the Quail books currently in print are from earlier than that :P).

 

[Cherry_Picker]

It's simple:

Up is the direction of decreasing mileposts
Down is the direction of increasing mileposts

All that stuff about to/from London or to/from the railway HQ is a useful rule of thumb, but it doesn't always work. The definition is as I've stated.

But even that is not always true. Great Central mileage into Marylebone sees up trains travelling in the direction of increasing mileposts.

 

[Tomnick]

The only part of the GCR London Extension still using Manchester-based mileages is the approach to Marylebone. The rest of the Aylesbury line uses the Met's mileage system from Baker Street.

Plus a section north of Quainton Road, and of course both parts of the preserved GCR. More significantly though, it's just occurred to me that the discrepancy extends to the original MSLR main line too - mileage increases in the Up direction between Manchester and Hadfield then Stocksbridge to Cleethorpes.

 

[Eagle]

Plus a section north of Quainton Road, and of course both parts of the preserved GCR. More significantly though, it's just occurred to me that the discrepancy extends to the original MSLR main line too - mileage increases in the Up direction between Manchester and Hadfield then Stocksbridge to Cleethorpes.

Maybe that was a GCR peculiarity then (I mean, having the Up direction as where the mileposts go up in number sounds pretty sensible...).

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

As far as i know its generally up towards a city/down away from it. Hence Merseyrails Chester line which is classed as the Down Chester coming from Liverpool then changes to the Up Birkenhead line at Hooton as it gets closer to Chester.

No, that's not the reason. I think the logic goes like this:
The initial line was the Chester & Birkenhead which was Up towards Chester (and Euston) all the way from Woodside to Chester.
It's called the Up Birkenhead because the route was later called the Birkenhead Railway or Birkenhead Joint (or the Birkenhead, Lancashire & Cheshire Junction to give it its grandest title!).
Separately the Mersey Railway started from Hamilton Square with Up towards Liverpool, and this line extended to Rock Ferry eventually with the southbound line called the Down Rock Ferry.

After rationalisation and electrification the "Mersey" tracks were merged with the "Birkenhead" tracks at Rock Ferry and the previous Up line south from Rock Ferry was renamed Down Chester as far as Hooton, but left as before onwards to Chester.
So you have the strange setup of travelling on the Down Chester from Hamilton Square to Hooton, which becomes the Up Birkenhead there!
This isn't helped by the dog-leg at Hooton, which is the remains of the former 4-track layout.
Originally the fast lines were in the middle and the slow outside, but when they reduced it to two tracks, they chose the western pair of tracks from Rock Ferry to Hooton, and the eastern pair from Hooton to Ledsham Jn (where it reduced to two tracks onwards to Chester).

Actually I don't think there's much logic in naming lines generally, apart from the Up/Down bit. It's really just so signallers have a ready means of telling the lines apart for train movements.
Most simple layouts just have names like "Up Main" or "Down Branch".

There are some odd line designations, possibly the oddest being Up/Down Poplar next to Acton Main Line out of Paddington, leading to Acton Wells on the North London Line.
It's all of 49 chains long, but it provided the link for GW trains to work over the NLR to reach the docks 10 miles away at ... Poplar!

 

[Eagle]

Actually I don't think there's much logic in naming lines generally, apart from the Up/Down bit. It's really just so signallers have a ready means of telling the lines apart for train movements.

The tracks leading to the Mole Valley line around Sutton are still officially called the Portsmouth lines, even though no services to Portsmouth have gone that way for decades.


(Incidentally I thought that trains from Birkenhead to Chester went to Paddington originally, not Euston, via Shrewsbury and Birmingham Snow Hill. But I could be wrong.)

 

[Trog]

Maybe that was a GCR peculiarity then (I mean, having the Up direction as where the mileposts go up in number sounds pretty sensible...).

The CMD1&2 also have the rising mileage running in the Up direction.

Which side platform 1 is on seems to depend on the building company.
Most older stations on the south end of the WCML have platform 1 on the DF side, but on the Midland line south of Bedford platform 1 is on the US side.

 

[deltic1989]

Lincoln Central is quite helpful to the lay person who may be confused as to which way is up and which way is down as the signal gantries at each end of the station label the through lines as such the direction of Pelham St flyover is up and the direction of the High St is down (like the level crossing most of the time). There is more than likely another explanation for why this was done, perhaps to remind drivers which signal relates to which line or something of that order.

 

[Tomnick]

Maybe that was a GCR peculiarity then (I mean, having the Up direction as where the mileposts go up in number sounds pretty sensible...).

In the case of the London Extension, Up used to be towards Manchester - but the
directions were reversed at some point without changing the mileage. No idea if that was the case on the original MSLR - I've never really understood how the Up direction came to be towards Cleethorpes, although the docks around the area were obviously important to the railway.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The tracks leading to the Mole Valley line around Sutton are still officially called the Portsmouth lines, even though no services to Portsmouth have gone that way for decades.


(Incidentally I thought that trains from Birkenhead to Chester went to Paddington originally, not Euston, via Shrewsbury and Birmingham Snow Hill. But I could be wrong.)

Both, actually.
Birkenhead-Chester-Crewe-Euston became possible in 1840.
Chester-Shrewsbury-Wellington-Stafford-Euston in 1849.
Shrewsbury-Wolverhampton-Birmingham-Paddington 1854 (via Didcot until 1910).
There was a brief period before the WLL/Snow Hill route opened when the current route (WHL/New St) was the only one open.

Actually through trains from Birkenhead probably didn't operate until the LNWR/GWR jointly leased the Birkenhead Railway in 1860, by which time both main lines were well established .
It was Up from Chester to both Crewe and Wrexham, but going via Wrexham involved starting out on the LNWR Down to Saltney Jn.
Although the dominant London service from Birkenhead was to Paddington, there were also (faster) through portions to Euston tacked on to North Wales trains at Chester until the 1960s.
The "Emerald Isle Express" as the peak evening business train from Euston used to drop portions for Llandudno and Birkenhead at Chester.