UPDATE: GWR Not Honouring Break of Journey

[brown_fields]

Hi all

Yesterday I bought an off peak return (return within one month) from Southampton to London Padington, with the idea that after leaving London, I could stop at Reading for the evening to stay with friends before picking up the remainder of the journey in the morning.

However, this morning my ticket would not allow me to pass through the barriers in Reading and when I queried it with the staff at the station they told me that the ticket had already been used, even though I hadn't technically completed my journey and the ticket was still valid for the rest of the month.

I had done a little research before buying the tickets this way and thought that I was allowed to break the return journey up however I liked. Have I just got this completely wrong?

Thanks for taking the time to read.

 

[Hadders]

Break of journey is allowed on the return portion of Off Peak Return tickets. I wouldn't expect the barriers to be programmed correctly as there is only a very limited amount of data that can be held on the mag stripe of the tickets and barriers at each station cannot be programmed to recognise every single ticket that would be valid for break of journey. In these circumstances you should be let through manually.

It appears that the member of staff was incorrect to deny you entry although when resuming your journey you must abide by the time restrictions applicable to the ticket. If you had the ticket I believe you had you are not allowed to travel on trains timed to arrive at Paddington before 10:00.

Assuming you were using the ticket at a valid time then I'd make a complaint to GWR.

 

[brown_fields]

Hi Hadders

Thanks for the reply. I left Paddington in the evening around 22:30, stayed overnight in Reading and then attempted to make the return journey today at 12:50.

I ended up having to buy a single. I have all the receipts for the tickets, do you think I would be able to get a refund for the single I had to purchase?

 

[Hadders]

I would certainly be pursuing a refund. I suggest you write a concise complaint to GWR stating what happened, enclose copies of the tickets and stating that you expect reimbursement of the additional ticket you had to purchase. You might also like to request that they undertake a briefing of staff at the station to ensure they are aware of break of journey validity.

 

[brown_fields]

I'll do just that. If I was a little more clued in I would've pushed back against the staff member more, but I suppose it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

Thanks a lot Hadders, appreciate you taking the time to answer.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I'll do just that. If I was a little more clued in I would've pushed back against the staff member more, but I suppose it wouldn't have made much of a difference.

Thanks a lot Hadders, appreciate you taking the time to answer.

Indeed, I would be asking for more than the cost of the single back. You have been put to inconvenience because they can't be bothered to train their staff properly. It is unacceptable, but unsurprising, that occurrences such as this continue to happen.

 

[Mag_seven]

Break of journey on a return portion is really basic stuff that I would expect all barrier staff to be familiar with.

 

[brown_fields]

Thanks guys, have emailed GWR explaining everything and stated I expect to be refunded.

I'll update you when I get the response

 

[brown_fields]

Hello everyone

A couple of weeks ago I posted this thread: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/splitting-a-journey-overnight.168214/

I had wanted to split a return journey overnight but was forced to buy a new single the next day as the ticket gate rejected my ticket.

I emailed GWR stating I expected a refund for the ticket I had to purchase, this is their response:

Thank you for contacting us

Thank you for contacting us regarding your return ticket

The rules of a return ticket



If you purchase a return ticket within a month of return then yes you can come back anytime.

However if on the return journey you do decide to stop off and then travel again the next day then your ticket will not be valid.

The reason is you have already completed your 1st part of the journey going to your destination; your return journey is back to where ever you decide to get off the train.

In your case it was at Reading, so as far as the ticket goes your return journey was complete.

So the member of staff at Reading Station was right in what he advised you to do.

In rule with our Passenger Charter only 2 journeys are allowed on a (Month) return ticket whether it is the same day or 3 weeks later with the same ticket, as soon as you leave the train and exit the station your return journey is over.

As you decided to split your journey the return ticket does not cover this.

Thanks again for getting in touch



I hope this explains the rules of a return ticket– and that next time you travel with us you have a better trip.

Yours Sincerely

Jeanette
Customer Support Advisor

-----------------

So did I get the rules for Break of Journey wrong? Has the policy changed? Any help would be greatly appreciated here.

Thanks for taking the time to read.

 

[island]

What a load of nonsense!

 

[NSEFAN]

My understanding was that any journey is valid timing-wise provided that all travel is completed within the allocated time. For an advance, this means using booked trains. For walk up fares this means using within the dates listed. If the ticket allows Break of Journey too then this implies you can do overnight BoJ on the return part of an Anytime Return as it is valid for 1 month, which seems to be what you did and were subsequently penalised by having to buy a new ticket. I haven't read the GWR passenger charter, but even so I don't believe that it can override the National Rail Conditions of Travel, so it is my opinion that GWR are wrong.

 

[JB_B]

That response is absolutely dreadful.

....In rule with our Passenger Charter only 2 journeys are allowed on a (Month) return ticket whether it is the same day or 3 weeks later with the same ticket, as soon as you leave the train and exit the station your return journey is over.
....

As far as I can see the GWR passenger charter ( https://www.gwr.com/~/media/gwr/pdf...er/gwr-customer-charter-sept-15-web.pdf?la=en ) says no such thing and even if it did, GWR are bound by the NRCoT. 16.2 which says...

"Where break of journey is allowed *, there is no limit to the number of times that you can do so within a Ticket’s period of validity, until the journey is completed."

[* which it is on an off peak return Southampton-London Terminals ]

 

[yorkie]

The reason is you have already completed your 1st part of the journey going to your destination; your return journey is back to where ever you decide to get off the train.

In your case it was at Reading, so as far as the ticket goes your return journey was complete.

So the member of staff at Reading Station was right in what he advised you to do.

The reason for this reply is GWR customer services are not knowledgeable about tickets and make things up that are not true.

GWR do not have sufficient safeguards in place to prevent overcharges and other contractual breaches, nor do they have safeguards in place to ensure such matters are rectified.

If these GWR support people were posting stuff on this forum, they'd not get away with it, because - unlike GWR - we do have sufficient safeguards in place.

GWR are wrong and they are also mistreating and misleading other people too (I'm aware of several cases).

Please refer the matter to Transport Focus. If you don't get a good result, try escalating the matter to your MP and copy thr message to Mark Hopwood.

I'm happy to proof read a letter (send me a direct conversation message if you like).

 

[NSEFAN]

"Where break of journey is allowed *, there is no limit to the number of times that you can do so within a Ticket’s period of validity, until the journey is completed."

So it's actually explictly stated in NRCoT? And the GWR passenger charter says no such thing? That is appalling.

 

[Kite159]

They should never have outsourced customer services to Capita.

 

[Joe Paxton]

They should never have outsourced customer services to Capita.

AKA Crapita.

 

[brown_fields]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I actually just read through the Passenger's Charter and as JB_B noticed it doesn't say anything like that at all.

Also refreshed myself on the NRCoT and it definitely backs up what I thought was correct.

So should I send a reply to GWR to give it one more shot and show Transport Focus that I have exhausted all possible avenues, or should I go straight to Transport Focus?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Thanks for the replies guys.

I actually just read through the Passenger's Charter and as JB_B noticed it doesn't say anything like that at all.

Also refreshed myself on the NRCoT and it definitely backs up what I thought was correct.

So should I send a reply to GWR to give it one more shot and show Transport Focus that I have exhausted all possible avenues, or should I go straight to Transport Focus?

You can try it - but personally at this point if GWR do not willingly pay up - and PDQ! - I would be sending out a Letter Before Action for the cost of the incorrectly charged additional ticket!

I am pretty sure they would not be as relaxed as you seem to be, if you were claiming that an inexistent provision in their Passengers' Charter said you could travel beyond your ticketed destination as long as, say, you did so on the same train. It's just a plainly ludicrous suggestion.

 

[Merseysider]

Ask for it to be escalated within GWR.

I know someone who got the resolution they wanted that way.

If they fail to solve it properly, Transport Focus is your next step.

 

[MichaelAMW]

For me, the most startling inaccurate bit was:

"Your return journey is back to where ever you decide to get off the train."

When read in conjuction with the NRCOT it's hard to know where to start...

 

[bb21]

For me, the most startling inaccurate bit was:

"Your return journey is back to where ever you decide to get off the train."

When read in conjuction with the NRCOT it's hard to know where to start...

Yeah that one kind of takes the crown for the most ill-informed comment of the year so far, and there has been a good selection.

Well, my finance manager had a good laugh.

You can try it - but personally at this point if GWR do not willingly pay up - and PDQ! - I would be sending out a Letter Before Action for the cost of the incorrectly charged additional ticket!

I wouldn't normally support this line of action before the case were at a more advanced stage but I'll make an exception on this occasion for the sheer level of incompetency on show.

 

[Coolzac]

This is unbelievable. I can't believe that a TOC has not only fouled up so badly on the day, but then with the response to your complaint.

If it was me, I would be so tempted to take them to court at this point, and demand extra compensation for the time and hassle involved.

However, I appreciate that the OP will probably just wanted this ridiculous mess sorted ASAP. As someone else has said, escalating it within the company will probably bear fruit. Surely someone must know what they are doing there!

Incompetence or something worse?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Surely not something worse, as GWR could now, if they wished, actually bar BoJ on both portions of Off Peak tickets, as the rule that it is always permitted on the return half has been removed.

 

[island]

As ever, I would caution against assuming malice in this matter rather than incompetence.

 

[Coolzac]

Sorry to go off topic, which tickets are there a boj restriction on the return portion?

 

[swt_passenger]

So it's actually explictly stated in NRCoT? And the GWR passenger charter says no such thing? That is appalling.

There’s little point in a passenger charter repeating basic information from the NRCoT. That’s the whole point of national conditions, the charter should just deal with TOC specific extras, such as detailed compensation explanations.

 

[embers25]

For me, the most startling inaccurate bit was:

"Your return journey is back to where ever you decide to get off the train."

When read in conjuction with the NRCOT it's hard to know where to start...

As incompetent replies go this takes really is up their with the worst ever, and that is really saying something as GWR, Virgin and GTR have had some beauties over time! That being said, I've had Exeter Central Gate Staff claim this exact thing too, which I quickly corrected and suggested they go get a manager who could retrain them. However, something tells me if I had an advance to Exeter and chose to end my journey early at Taunton the "Your return journey is back to where ever you decide to get off the train." wouldn't be accepted!!

 

[dmncf]

What disappoints me about threads like this is not that some staff struggle with ticketing rules, but that some staff struggle with ticketing rules yet are confident enough to enforce an incorrect view, rather than letting passengers through the gates and thinking 'I'll look this up later so I know the rules the next time I encounter this situation'.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Sorry to go off topic, which tickets are there a boj restriction on the return portion?

The only one I know of is restriction 8A (Off Peak with no time restrictions, only a BoJ restriction) which so far as I know is now only used by Arriva Trains Wales.

 

[Bletchleyite]

As ever, I would caution against assuming malice in this matter rather than incompetence.

Wilful corporate incompetence caused by cost-cutting.

It is clearly the case that the process required to answer a ticketing question must include looking up and checking the restrictions of that ticket in each case, because nobody can be expected to know all of them, and it's quite possible that people will *think* they know all of them in a case like this but if they checked would find that they do not[1], therefore a check has to be mandatory regardless of whether they think they do or not. A properly set up incident management system would mandate that to be done through the system and recorded that it has been done, for instance.

[1] As there are, as I've said, tickets for which what they say is correct (assuming staff authorise finishing short as they in most cases will) - all Advances, some Off Peaks on the outward only, a very small number of Off Peaks on both legs.