Updated - Sweden: Trafikverket proposes Malmö-Brussels & Stockholm-Hamburg night trains, starting by 2022.8.1

[popeter45]

Ironically, the regulating body that would enforce that - the UIC - has a French name and the terms for the carriages in this proposed train i.e. Wagons-Lits and couchettes are French...

bit Off-Topic but feel any attempt to unify Signalling Language will be met with little opposition to it actually happening but fierce opposition to what Language will actually be chosen with lots of lobbying from everybody

 

[JonasB]

A multi-Voltage/Country Loco would solve that
changing locos between Sweden and Denmark would be hell as no station at the voltage change boundary and Signalling changes as a different point (i believe if going Denmark -> Sweden Signalling changes just before the Bridge and Voltage changes Just after)

It was probably not the best idea to have the system border on the bridge, a dual voltage station on the Danish side would have made things a lot easier. But multi voltage locos are not a big problem, DSB have Vectrons on order that will equipped for both Denmark, Germany and Sweden. They could be used to Aachen.

There's also a linguistic matter - Snälltåget has campaigned on this for some time. They would like English to become lingua franca of signalling systems since, under the current systems, a driver from Malmö to Hamburg needs to speak Swedish, Danish and German in order to communicate with signallers. Not impossible, but remember that global Air Traffic Control has long accepted English as the operating language to avoid any chance of misunderstanding.

Denmark has actually changed the rules to facilitate cross borde traffic and Swedish or German can now be used in parts of the country as well as Danish. Although being bilingual in Swedish and Danish is a bit like being able to speak both Geordie and Kentish… And there would still be a need to change drivers along the route.

 

[farci]

Ironically, the regulating body that would enforce that - the UIC - has a French name and the terms for the carriages in this proposed train i.e. Wagons-Lits and couchettes are French...

I believe UIC stopped thinking in French when Hercule Poirot was riding the Orient Express . Their website bills them as 'The Worldwide Railway Organisation'
https://uic.org/

 

[StephenHunter]

The carriage code for sleepers remains WL... and the company that services Nightjet calls itself Newrest Wagons-Lits, being a direct descendant of CIWL.

 

[43096]

It was probably not the best idea to have the system border on the bridge, a dual voltage station on the Danish side would have made things a lot easier. But multi voltage locos are not a big problem, DSB have Vectrons on order that will equipped for both Denmark, Germany and Sweden. They could be used to Aachen.

"Could" being the operative word. They have 42 on order: 16 to go with the new Talgo sets and 26 to replace the EA and ME locos. There's not going to be much spare capacity in the fleet to have one sat at Aachen all day. They do have a further two locos on option in the original contract with Siemens, though...

 

[StephenHunter]

The 'hard limit' for a loco, based on capacity for the signalling equipment, is four or five countries.

Anyway, I thought the voltage boundary was at Malmö...

 

[popeter45]

Anyway, I thought the voltage boundary was at Malmö...

it is but Signaling is changed at Peberholm instead

the Swedish system allows up to 200km/h on the bridge but Danish system max is 180km/h
ETCS is slowly being installed on Danish lines so may see ETCS on the bridge not too far into the future

 

[JonasB]

"Could" being the operative word. They have 42 on order: 16 to go with the new Talgo sets and 26 to replace the EA and ME locos. There's not going to be much spare capacity in the fleet to have one sat at Aachen all day. They do have a further two locos on option in the original contract with Siemens, though...

True, but they could always reorganize the fleet, maybe keep the EAs a bit longer. Otherwise there are leasing companies. My point is that is perfectly possible to do it with one loco change using existing locos.

it is but Signaling is changed at Peberholm instead

the Swedish system allows up to 200km/h on the bridge but Danish system max is 180km/h
ETCS is slowly being installed on Danish lines so may see ETCS on the bridge not too far into the future

Slowly is the key word, it has been delayed and is now expected to be complete in 2025. All lines in Denmark are planned to be converted by 2030.

 

[MarcVD]

Slowly is the key word, it has been delayed and is now expected to be complete in 2025. All lines in Denmark are planned to be converted by 2030.

Which is still not that bad, there are not so many countries that will fully migrate to ETCS before that. Luxemburg, Belgium, may be another one or two. Many others are really dragging their feet.

 

[JonasB]

Which is still not that bad, there are not so many countries that will fully migrate to ETCS before that. Luxemburg, Belgium, may be another one or two. Many others are really dragging their feet.

True, but compared to the plan it is really slow. Electrification and updating to ETCS at the same time turned out to be a bit of a problem.

 

[jamesontheroad]

DSB (Danish State Railways) have published a new analysis document which indicates ÖBB have agreed in principle to lease DSB current Nightjet rolling stock when the new ÖBB rolling stock arrives in 2022. They discuss tendering for the Malmö-Köln route as proposed by Trafikverket in Sweden.

Document (in Danish) here: http://baeredygtigtrafik.dk/underma...20/06/Notat-til-TRM-vedr.-Nattog-Maj-2020.pdf

Analysis and explanation (in English) in @Koelschlenny thread of tweets here: https://twitter.com/Koelschlenny/status/1270378553054560256

 

[popeter45]

DSB (Danish State Railways) have published a new analysis document which indicates ÖBB have agreed in principle to lease DSB current Nightjet rolling stock when the new ÖBB rolling stock arrives in 2022. They discuss tendering for the Malmö-Köln route as proposed by Trafikverket in Sweden.

Document (in Danish) here: http://baeredygtigtrafik.dk/underma...20/06/Notat-til-TRM-vedr.-Nattog-Maj-2020.pdf

Analysis and explanation (in English) in @Koelschlenny thread of tweets here: https://twitter.com/Koelschlenny/status/1270378553054560256

cant read danish so cant check document to see if this is true or not but using old NJ stock would indicate no restaurant/lounge car?
apart from that makes sense to lease old second hand stock rather than buy new stock at first, if its a success buy new stock, if it fails less money lost

 

[StephenHunter]

Most sleepers don't have restaurant or lounge cars anyway. You order a breakfast from the attendant.

 

[jamesontheroad]

cant read danish so cant check document to see if this is true or not but using old NJ stock would indicate no restaurant/lounge car?

Most sleepers don't have restaurant or lounge cars anyway. You order a breakfast from the attendant.

DSB also have no catering cars in their daytime trains, or any interest in providing for catering. The 7-Eleven franchisee in Denmark was trialling a walking bistro service (with coffee served from flasks in an hard shell insulated backpack) back in January but I think the operation has been paused.

Over on the SJK Postvagnen forums, there is healthy discussion about whether - if Snälltåget run couchettes all the way from Stockholm to Berlin via Denmark in 2021 - they will take the famous Snälltåget "krog" pub-style dining car as well.

 

[StephenHunter]

The catering and staff would likely come from Newrest Wagons-Lits, who staff Nightjet's carriages.

 

[JonasB]

The Swedish government have announced that they will continue with the plans for new night trains to the continent and proposes 300 million SEK be set aside for next year for Trafikverket to continue the work.

 

[miami]

Snälltåget announces new overnight service to the Austrian Alps

Swedish private operator Snälltåget will launch a new direct night service between Sweden and the Austrian Alps in February 2021.

www.railjournal.com

SWEDISH private operator Snälltåget will launch a new direct overnight service between Sweden and the Austrian Alps in February 2021.

The Stockholm – Malmö – Zell am See service will operate for six weeks between February and March next year, travelling via the Danish towns of Høje-Taastrup, Odense and Kolding. A place in a standard six-berth compartment will cost SKr 2500 ($US 268) per passenger. The announcement comes as the operator postpones the launch of its revised Malmö – Berlin service until summer 2021.

 

[popeter45]

Snälltåget announces new overnight service to the Austrian Alps

Swedish private operator Snälltåget will launch a new direct night service between Sweden and the Austrian Alps in February 2021.

www.railjournal.com

i wonder if this is also to test/practise Malmo-Hamburg with whatever loco they decide to run the Berlin service with

cant find an all in one timetable so cant tell if and inbetween stops are planned (e.g. hamburg as they will have to pass thru)

 

[30907]

i wonder if this is also to test/practise Malmo-Hamburg with whatever loco they decide to run the Berlin service with

cant find an all in one timetable so cant tell if and inbetween stops are planned (e.g. hamburg as they will have to pass thru)

Think your first point may be right - as well as using otherwise spare stock.
The last stop mentioned is Kolding (for Jutland) - in Hamburg they would compete with Nightjet etc. Memory says that there used to be a service from Copenhagen to the Austrian Alps, which no longer seems to run, so that may be part of the plan?

 

[StephenHunter]

Think your first point may be right - as well as using otherwise spare stock.
The last stop mentioned is Kolding (for Jutland) - in Hamburg they would compete with Nightjet etc. Memory says that there used to be a service from Copenhagen to the Austrian Alps, which no longer seems to run, so that may be part of the plan?

It would have go through there on the way...

 

[AlbertBeale]

It would have go through there on the way...

No it doesn't have to go through Copenhagen en route from Malmo to Germany. In fact, it won't (to save having to reverse at Copenhagen presumably). The line into the main Copenhagen station from the tunnel/bridge from Sweden enters from the same direction as the connection to Germany.

 

[30907]

No it doesn't have to go through Copenhagen en route from Malmo to Germany. In fact, it won't (to save having to reverse at Copenhagen presumably). The line into the main Copenhagen station from the tunnel/bridge from Sweden enters from the same direction as the connection to Germany.

There is a stop at Hoje-Taastrup which is AIUI Copenhagen suburbia; the Berlin train will also stop there. The other intermediate stops, Odense and Kolding, cover the rest of Denmark fairly well.

 

[AlbertBeale]

There is a stop at Hoje-Taastrup which is AIUI Copenhagen suburbia; the Berlin train will also stop there. The other intermediate stops, Odense and Kolding, cover the rest of Denmark fairly well.

Well, not sure it's a suburb exactly - it's half way to the next town, Roskilde; and it's not on the new higher-speed line from Copenhagen to Ringsted (and hence on to Odense etc). But I guess it's the best bet, if you're to avoid reversing at Copenhagen main station, and want to stop somewhere that has reasonable connections back into the capital. There are local trains making the connection; but most intercity/longer-distance trains don't stop there, or go on the new faster line between Copenhagen and Ringsted.

I'd have thought the hassle factor, and "image", of not going via the city centre will deter some people from using the train as a service between Copenhagen and Germany. Though maybe the trains emanating from Sweden aren't intended much for the Danish market, and mayne the timings on the overnights won't be as convenient for Denmark (compared to Sweden) anyway.

If overnight capacity increases, as flying is phased out more and more, then there'll clearly be a need to reinstate sleepers starting and finishing in Copenhagen too, to and from Germany and points south. So perhaps there won't be much call for those making Copenhagen journeys to use the trains from/to Sweden anyway, and this poor Copenhagen connection won't matter.

 

[itfcfan]

Well, not sure it's a suburb exactly - it's half way to the next town, Roskilde; and it's not on the new higher-speed line from Copenhagen to Ringsted (and hence on to Odense etc). But I guess it's the best bet, if you're to avoid reversing at Copenhagen main station, and want to stop somewhere that has reasonable connections back into the capital. There are local trains making the connection; but most intercity/longer-distance trains don't stop there, or go on the new faster line between Copenhagen and Ringsted.

Is there a reason it's not feasible to stop at Copenhagen Airport station instead of Hoje-Taastrup? I visited Malmo from Copenhagen and due to my accommodation location in Copenhagen it was easiest to take the metro Copenhagen Airport and then the mainline train from there.

 

[AlbertBeale]

Is there a reason it's not feasible to stop at Copenhagen Airport station instead of Hoje-Taastrup? I visited Malmo from Copenhagen and due to my accommodation location in Copenhagen it was easiest to take the metro Copenhagen Airport and then the mainline train from there.

One likely reason is that the airport station is underground, with only two platforms, and has fairly a frequent service. So it might not have much scope for sleepers (which tend to have longer-than-average dwell-times, especially if they're - in effect - at their one stopping point for a capital city, which this would be). Whereas Hoje-Taastrup has four platforms and hence more flexibility. Also, for people connecting into the sleeper by getting a metro out from Copenhagen, I think the connection between the metro and the main-line station is tighter at Hoje-Taastrup - they're really one station (which isn't the case at Kastrup/Airport).

There is an above-ground avoiding line on the airport route, skipping the airport station, which I presume is for freight between Sweden and Denmark, or maybe anything else not stopping at the airport (though I think pretty much everything does); it also - in theory - could provide a tighter connection into the airport's metro station. However, there's no platforms or facilities for anything to stop there, and it wouldn't make sense to build station infrastructure for just a handful of sleepers each day.

 

[AlbertBeale]

One likely reason is that the airport station is underground, with only two platforms, and has fairly a frequent service. So it might not have much scope for sleepers (which tend to have longer-than-average dwell-times, especially if they're - in effect - at their one stopping point for a capital city, which this would be). Whereas Hoje-Taastrup has four platforms and hence more flexibility. Also, for people connecting into the sleeper by getting a metro out from Copenhagen, I think the connection between the metro and the main-line station is tighter at Hoje-Taastrup - they're really one station (which isn't the case at Kastrup/Airport; both of them are there to serve the aiport, not primarily to function as an interchange between the metro and the main line).

There is an above-ground avoiding line on the airport route, skipping the airport station, which I presume is for freight between Sweden and Denmark, or maybe anything else not stopping at the airport (though I think pretty much everything does); it also - in theory - could provide a tighter connection into the airport's metro station. However, there's no platforms or facilities for anything to stop there, and it wouldn't make sense to build station infrastructure for just a handful of sleepers each day.

 

[JonasB]

One likely reason is that the airport station is underground, with only two platforms, and has fairly a frequent service. So it might not have much scope for sleepers (which tend to have longer-than-average dwell-times, especially if they're - in effect - at their one stopping point for a capital city, which this would be). Whereas Hoje-Taastrup has four platforms and hence more flexibility. Also, for people connecting into the sleeper by getting a metro out from Copenhagen, I think the connection between the metro and the main-line station is tighter at Hoje-Taastrup - they're really one station (which isn't the case at Kastrup/Airport).

And, from the central station the travel time to Høje Tåstrup is roughly the same as to the airport. In addition, Høje Tåstrup is better for people living west of central Copenhagen or in Roskilde.

(Høje Tåstrup is served by the commuter trains (S-tog) and not the metro, but yes, they use the same station.)

 

[jamesontheroad]

The Swedish government has today commissioned Trafikverket, the Swedish Transport Administration, to undertake a direct procurement for international night trains between Sweden and the continent. The target it to launch Malmö-Brussels and Stockholm-Hamburg within two years.

Source: Dagens Nyheter

 

[JonasB]

Maybe time to update the thread title? The target launch date is August 2022 and it will be interesting to see if it is realistic (I really hope it is).

 

[miami]

Source: Dagens Nyheter

I like the google translate

The government clubs through daily night trains from Sweden to the continent