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USA response to Covid-19 and face masks

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The Ham

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And this is another example of all things being political. Democrats - Biden included - claim they want open borders - but to control a virus you might need to close them. I have lived here for 20 years. Please trust me on this- EVERYTHING is political particularly in a US election year and aftermath.

As for masks, I personally wear one on a plane and at airports and entering a restaurant and Walmart etc, but not outside when exercising.

Surely to god there has to be commonsense somewhere?

You'd hope that there'd be common sense, however given that here in the UK we've got to wear masks at school pick up/drop off which is generally less than 10 minutes, outside, only 1 class (30 children) and keeping 2m apart. Oh and I live in a village where there's about 9,000 and the statistics suggest that last week there was 4 confirmed cases.

As such the risk of not wearing a mask is going to be very low.

I look forward to his next pronouncement, about the effectiveness of carrying elephant repellent...

Want Lisa Simpson offering a rock which repelled tigers, maybe they could be modified to offer elephant protection too...
 
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Darandio

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given that here in the UK we've got to wear masks at school pick up/drop off which is generally less than 10 minutes, outside, only 1 class (30 children) and keeping 2m apart.

We don't have to at all. Presumably your school asked you to do so?
 

Scotrail12

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Masks are yet another thing that they've made political. I don't like Trump at all but I worry about the direction the USA will take regarding COVID when Biden/Harris are in control.

It must be exhausting with everything you do being a political statement, what an awful way of life and it makes for such a divisive society.
 

The Ham

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This interesting claim was made two months ago by Dr Robert Redfield, the head of the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention:


If he thinks masks are more effective than vaccines, I can only assume he has very low expectations of a vaccine, given the considerable lack of success mask mandation has had in preventing new lockdowns across much of Europe.

Reading his Wikipedia page, he seems to have an interesting past. Whilst Wikipedia is not an overly reliable source, anything blatantly untrue about a public figure isn't likely to last long.

Given that the initial results of the recently announced vaccine had 90% of those who had for Covid-19 symptoms within 7 days of the second injection where from the control group (placebo) then it would be hard to argue (read impossible) that masks are more effective.

Of course marks are likely to be more effective than any of the currently approved for widespread use vaccines in either the UK or USA (of which there are none).

We don't have to at all. Presumably your school asked you to do so?

It was a request from our school, but given that prior to lockdown we were in tier 1 and the very low levels; it's surprising that we're being asked to.
 

DB

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Of course marks are likely to be more effective than any of the currently approved for widespread use vaccines in either the UK or USA (of which there are none).

That's not necessarily true either - there is no evidence that masks are actually achieving any more than a non-existent vaccine. They might even be making things worse due to transferring germs around due to constant fiddling with them, putting them on tables, etc.
 

Bikeman78

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If a vaccine becomes widely available, I would imagine that the US, along with several other countries I suspect, will make proof of vaccination a condition of entry.

Several African countries require proof of vaccination against diseases such as typhoid and malaria, so requiring proof of vaccination against COVID-19 is similar.
What would be the point? They already have Covid in the US. I can see the logic behind countries like New Zealand wanting proof of vaccination.
 

The Ham

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That's not necessarily true either - there is no evidence that masks are actually achieving any more than a non-existent vaccine. They might even be making things worse due to transferring germs around due to constant fiddling with them, putting them on tables, etc.

I was careful in my wording saying that "masks were likely to be more effective" which is different to saying that they are more effective.

However I do fully agree that they only are likely to help if they are used in conjunction with keeping apart, limiting the number of people you meet (ideally for limited periods of time and outside/in well ventilated areas), ensuring good hygiene and the like.
 

initiation

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Several African countries require proof of vaccination against diseases such as typhoid and malaria, so requiring proof of vaccination against COVID-19 is similar.

Which to me seems a fair enough response. Proof of vaccination would be a good idea imho.

Possibly, but it is worth pointing out for the majority of the population, getting COVID19 will involve only a few, if any symptoms.

I've searched the infection fatality ratio for the following:
Typhoid - 10-30% without treatment, 1-4% with.
Yellow fever - 3-9%

Both at least one or more orders of magnitude higher than Covid19. So even if you are fit and healthy it is worth getting a vaccine if in a risk zone.

Malaria - a search tells me there is only one approved vaccine and it has a low efficacy. I'm aware if most people taking anti malarials rather than a vaccine but happy to corrected. There is also the point that some native populations will have some resistance to malaria where as visiting Europeans/Americans likely won't.

It will be interesting to see what Biden does covid wise, by the point he becomes president in theory the first vaccine should be rolling out to the vulnerable. His obviously pro mask though which could hamper a return to normality.
 

AM9

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And this is another example of all things being political. Democrats - Biden included - claim they want open borders - but to control a virus you might need to close them. I have lived here for 20 years. Please trust me on this- EVERYTHING is political particularly in a US election year and aftermath. ...
Out of curiosity, has there been any analysis of COVID-19 cases or evn deaths based on whether they were Democrat or Republican?
 

GRALISTAIR

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Out of curiosity, has there been any analysis of COVID-19 cases or evn deaths based on whether they were Democrat or Republican?
Not to my knowledge. The virus would not respect or care what your political persuasion is but tends to attack the elderly. Many people tend to get more conservative as they get older but it also tends to attack minorities more also who tend to be more democratic leaning. No data from North Korea either but that is a society with completely closed borders.
 

AM9

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Not to my knowledge. The virus would not respect or care what your political persuasion is but tends to attack the elderly. Many people tend to get more conservative as they get older but it also tends to attack minorities more also who tend to be more democratic leaning. No data from North Korea either but that is a society with completely closed borders.
My question was more about the impact of different beliefs and consequential behaviour of Trump followers vis a vis Democrats or less polarised citizens.
From here, it looks to me like the attitude to taking precautions certainly has caused transmission at the highest level in the US politicical establishment, - I wondered if there was a corresponding pattern of infection s in the general population.
 

GRALISTAIR

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My question was more about the impact of different beliefs and consequential behaviour of Trump followers vis a vis Democrats or less polarised citizens.
From here, it looks to me like the attitude to taking precautions certainly has caused transmission at the highest level in the US politicical establishment, - I wondered if there was a corresponding pattern of infection s in the general population.
I will post the link in the morning but there is an extant thread that shows Biden supporters en masse gathering outside the WH with zero social distancing etc and some without masks just like at a Trump rally. Both sides are as bad as each other and seem to think the virus can take a day off for them .
 

Domh245

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My question was more about the impact of different beliefs and consequential behaviour of Trump followers vis a vis Democrats or less polarised citizens.
From here, it looks to me like the attitude to taking precautions certainly has caused transmission at the highest level in the US politicical establishment, - I wondered if there was a corresponding pattern of infection s in the general population.

I saw an interesting graphic yesterday charting the number of Covid infections across the US since February. One thing that really stuck out to me is that California has done remarkably well at keeping it under control, as has the North East, apart from the early outbreak in New York. Obviously there's a lot more factors to it, but when comparing that to the results from last week
 

DustyBin

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This might merit its own thread, however I was thinking this week about the Trump election result, and how it’s generally being taken to be that Covid probably cost it for him. To what extent do we think that Trump’s handling has correlated with their quite high death figure? For a start Americans aren’t generally the healthiest people in terms of factors like obesity, and then a lot of the response has presumably been at state level for which Trump isn’t directly accountable.

How much more could Trump have realistically done to influence things? This is a genuine question as I’m not too up on their setup there.

Regardless of the set up (which I’m not overly familiar with myself) I’m not sure what more Trump could have done. He could have been seen to be doing more, encouraging mask wearing etc. but that’s not his way and I’m not at all convinced that it would have made a significant difference (separate thread!). There was a lot made of the total number of deaths in the US, and 230,000 or whatever the number was/is sounds horrific, but with a population of circa 328 million the number of deaths per capita is actually lower than ours. How accurately they record Covid deaths over there I have no idea. The general health of the population may also be a factor, certainly obesity makes people more vulnerable

Yep. And Trump was effectively getting behind the rather more sensible idea of 'focused protection'/Great Barrington. Biden is a big step backwards as far as Covid is concerned.

Agreed, for all Trump’s faults he seemed to take a realistic view of Covid, albeit he fell into the trap of deliberately antagonising his opponents by ignoring even common sense precautions. Biden’s proclamation that masks are the magic bullet is indeed a backward step, they really aren’t....
 

AM9

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Regardless of the set up (which I’m not overly familiar with myself) I’m not sure what more Trump could have done. He could have been seen to be doing more, encouraging mask wearing etc. but that’s not his way and I’m not at all convinced that it would have made a significant difference (separate thread!). There was a lot made of the total number of deaths in the US, and 230,000 or whatever the number was/is sounds horrific, but with a population of circa 328 million the number of deaths per capita is actually lower than ours. How accurately they record Covid deaths over there I have no idea. The general health of the population may also be a factor, certainly obesity makes people more vulnerable ...
Although the proportion of communities that have little contact with the more worldly parts of the US is much higher than for the UK. There are significant numbers there that rarely (ever?) step outside their county, let alone state, so transmission would be far less likely in those places. The large eastern corridor states, California and Washington (state) where the US presents an outward facing lifestyle all seem to have per capita figures between a half and a third of the worst states (the Dakotas, Iowa and Wisconsin). see here: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1109004/coronavirus-covid19-cases-rate-us-americans-by-state/


... Agreed, for all Trump’s faults he seemed to take a realistic view of Covid, albeit he fell into the trap of deliberately antagonising his opponents by ignoring even common sense precautions. Biden’s proclamation that masks are the magic bullet is indeed a backward step, they really aren’t....
Well Trump didn't do many favours for his team in the White House, especially at the rushed welcome to Amy Coney Barrett.
 

GRALISTAIR

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I would argue but we will obviously have to wait for the statistics that the USA in general has poor health. Obesity is a massive problem and Type II Diabetes - dont want to start a conspiracy theory but trying to keep all those mid west farmers happy by putting high fructose corn syrup in everything cant help. Heck, even the bread and bread rolls have a sweetness. Everywhere has drive throughs so guess what, people don't walk as much and generally not physically active. I swear to you I can not remember last time I saw someone riding a bicycle. Then African Americans who are more prone tend to have high rates of hyper-tension aka blood pressure issues. All these are factors for the high cases -death rates.
 
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greyman42

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I would argue but we will obviously have to wait for the statistics that the USA in general has poor health. Obesity is a massive problem and Type II Diabetes - dont want to start a conspiracy theory but trying to keep all those mid west farmers happy by putting high fructose corn syrup in everything cant help. Heck, even the bread and bread rolls have a sweetness. Everywhere has drive throughs so guess what people don't walk as much and generally not physically active. I swear to you I can not remember last time I saw someone riding a bicycle. Then African Americans who are more prone tend to have high rates of hyper-tension aka blood pressure issues. All these are factors for the high cases -death rates.
An excellent post. This is why comparing one country with another does not always tell the full story.
 

AM9

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Unless of course you believe in herd immunity startegy!
Well the choice there is either a viable vaccine in distribution, or let it rip with the collateral damage of many deaths more than we've seen so far. The fomer is a bit premature and the latter might not be the preferred route for many who don't have the best medical teams and access to all of the latest drugs.
 

GRALISTAIR

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Well the choice there is either a viable vaccine in distribution, or let it rip with the collateral damage of many deaths more than we've seen so far. The fomer is a bit premature and the latter might not be the preferred route for many who don't have the best medical teams and access to all of the latest drugs.
Though allegedly the current UK government were pursuing that strategy but then allegedly lost his bottle.

I am also convinced DJT prefers the Great Barrington declaration approach.
 

AM9

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Though allegedly the current UK government were pursuing that strategy but then allegedly lost his bottle. ...
See below

... I am also convinced DJT prefers the Great Barrington declaration approach.
I had to look this up as I'd seen the name in some of the threads here. It seems the The GB declaration is promoted by a libertarian think tank that's also linked to a group that deny climate change. I agree, that sounds like Trump's kind of politics.
 

Yew

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Well the choice there is either a viable vaccine in distribution, or let it rip with the collateral damage of many deaths more than we've seen so far. The fomer is a bit premature and the latter might not be the preferred route for many who don't have the best medical teams and access to all of the latest drugs.
Nobody is suggesting that, how many times do we have to explain that before people will stop with this strawman argument?
 

londiscape

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I had to look this up as I'd seen the name in some of the threads here. It seems the The GB declaration is promoted by a libertarian think tank that's also linked to a group that deny climate change. I agree, that sounds like Trump's kind of politics.

Have you actually read the Great Barrington Declaration? If so, what is it about the actual content that you disagree with?

Or are you just trying to smear those who authored and support this policy (eminent medical professionals and epidemiologists) because they disagree with government and media dogma?

I'm getting pretty sick of this persistent "OMG the Great Barrington Declaration was sponsored by the AIER therefore must be evil" trope. If you disagree with the actual content, fair enough, make the argument, but attacking the people and the sponsors is just a cowardly way of dodging the actual subject matter by playing the "man instead of the ball", and smacks of having no actual coherent argument, instead a disturbing desire to shut down proper debate.

By the way, yes I have signed the Declaration.
 

The Ham

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Have you actually read the Great Barrington Declaration? If so, what is it about the actual content that you disagree with?

Or are you just trying to smear those who authored and support this policy (eminent medical professionals and epidemiologists) because they disagree with government and media dogma?

I'm getting pretty sick of this persistent "OMG the Great Barrington Declaration was sponsored by the AIER therefore must be evil" trope. If you disagree with the actual content, fair enough, make the argument, but attacking the people and the sponsors is just a cowardly way of dodging the actual subject matter by playing the "man instead of the ball", and smacks of having no actual coherent argument, instead a disturbing desire to shut down proper debate.

By the way, yes I have signed the Declaration.

On a first read through it would appear to have some merit, however if you are splitting the population 60/40 (as it's the case for the US, not sure how it would be split in the UK but probably not much different I'd guess as we've got an older population but probably better underlying heath) it's going to be very hard to ensure that those at higher risk are going to limit their movements.

For instance, with many grandparents providing childcare for their grandkids whilst their kids go to work, how would that work, given that their kids would the ones needing to go to work? It's not just work, in that they are likely to also babysit, so that would reduce the ability for the grown up children to go out as well. (It's not unlikely that grandparents can be 70+ whilst their grandchildren are under 10, essentially the grandparents have a child aged 31, which may not be their first child, who then have a child at 31, that child is then 8 when their grandparent turns 70).

Also there's a significant number of people who are workers who would fall into the older category. Even if they only work infrequently or a few days a week for pin/beer money. Which leads to the question what is the cut off age?

Over 70 then it may well work, other than you may still get significant numbers under 70 who still don't have underlying heath issues who could still get fairly I'll. Whilst over 60 leaves a gap between that and the state pension age and so you'd likely impact a lot more people who are in full time jobs. Even at state pension age not everyone wants to retire straight away (nor does every company want then to do so), especially if there's been some financial difficulty (including divorce) which may have had an impact on their quality of pension (also starting your pension later would give you a better level of income).

To clarify, I'm not saying that it's bad, just that I think that I'd need to know more details before I could comment fully.
 

DustyBin

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This is probably the most appropriate place for this. The article itself merely quantifies what has been apparent to many of us for months, the fact that it’s been ‘pulled’ as potential misinformation though is interesting....


At the time of this writing, the United States currently maintains the highest number of Covid-19 deaths and ranks 11th for the highest deaths per capita. There have been approximately 262,000 recorded Covid-19 deaths in the United States, which is certainly a concerning number.

However, a new study (link removed or site crashed but now available at Archive.org) published by Dr. Genevieve Briand at Johns Hopkins University notes some critical accounting errors done at the national level. The study – which is still being vetted – simply examines the raw data that should have been questioned months ago. The overall conclusion is that Covid-19, at least according to collected data, is not the killer disease that it is currently hyped up to be. AIER is not endorsing the study as is without further study, but we are interested in the argument being examined and discussed.
 

yorkie

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"The first day I'm inaugurated to say I'm going to ask the public for 100 days to mask. Just 100 days to mask, not forever. One hundred days.

Looks like I will be postponing my planned trip at Easter!

Constitutional experts say a US president has no legal authority to order Americans to wear masks, but Mr Biden said during the interview he and his Vice-President Kamala Harris would set an example by donning face coverings.

The president's executive authority does cover US government property, and Mr Biden told CNN he intended to exercise such power.
"I'm going to issue a standing order that in federal buildings you have to be masked."

He added: "Transportation, interstate transportation, you must be masked, airplanes and buses, et cetera."

It's not clear to me how far this goes, for example do people who work there have to wear them when sat at their desk in an office?

On the plus side, at least he is promising there will be no more mandatory masks in the USA after 30th April, so that makes a visit to the USA viable after that date.
 

DB

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Looks like I will be postponing my planned trip at Easter!



It's not clear to me how far this goes, for example do people who work there have to wear them when sat at their desk in an office?

On the plus side, at least he is promising there will be no more mandatory masks in the USA after 30th April, so that makes a visit to the USA viable after that date.

A "significant reduction" - what, like they caused in the UK, Spain, Italy, France...

Difficult to see how he could be unaware that no country can actually demonstrate any impact at all as a result of maks mandates.
 

Cdd89

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The perspective of many in the US regarding masks is bizarre.

An acquaintance residing in the US posted the following on their (private) Facebook profile (so can’t link to it directly). I’m really surprised that mindset exists.

Dream last night that I went outside and no one else was wearing a mask. I ask someone what is going on (without getting too close) and the person says “There’a a vaccine!” and I start yelling “But no one’s taken it yet!!” I realize my mask won’t do any good if no one else is wearing one. Why can I see this nightmare actually happening.....

I gently enquiried what they thought of the UK position of masks only in specific contexts and found myself de-friended. Which wasn’t much of a loss, but I feel sad for people that have this anxiety and angry that people who have legitimate reasons for not being able to wear masks are treated as pariahs.
 
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