Use of Tablets by Drivers

[E&W Lucas]

Don't some cabs already have electronic screens in the form of the TMS? I don't really see how an iPad or similar for work related purposes presents any greater risk of distraction than these, with the proper risk assessments and sensible precautions in place (and no doubt their safety will be thoroughly examined prior to widespread deployment).

There is a world of difference between a purpose built, factory fitted, single use screen, and an iPad in a generic cradle, running an app. Incoming Facetime call anyone?
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The Train Simulator game has displayed distance to signals and stations, junction names, gradients, etc, will the display of that sort of info become standard, if not on a tablet, some fixed display?

Yes, driving trains is absolutely just like playing Train Simulator :roll:
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The problem here is that as long as drivers are being disciplined for incorrect use of technology etc why should something be placed in the cab that could tempt them down this very road. Our TOC wanted to issue tablets a couple of years ago but as a union we turned them down.

Therein lies the problem. What if something happens that makes the tablet come out of the permitted App?
Or if a process running "in the background" is questioned?

The technology may be a good thing, but there needs to be an outbreak of "joined up thinking" between the Union, TOC's and the ORR.

 

[Clip]

There is a world of difference between a purpose built, factory fitted, single use screen, and an iPad in a generic cradle, running an app. Incoming Facetime call anyone?

Therein lies the problem. What if something happens that makes the tablet come out of the permitted App?
Or if a process running "in the background" is questioned?

The technology may be a good thing, but there needs to be an outbreak of "joined up thinking" between the Union, TOC's and the ORR.

Come now you're joining the 'what if' brigade here.

Its very simple. Whether its an iPad or an android or Windows tablet it is very VERY simple to lock it down so that it can only use certain apps - i.e the ones that need to be used and nothing else.

this already happens across the railway in what you can view and use on yoru PC so I fail to see why people cant get their heads around it being any different on a tablet. In fact its probably easier.

 

[E&W Lucas]

Come now you're joining the 'what if' brigade here.

Its very simple. Whether its an iPad or an android or Windows tablet it is very VERY simple to lock it down so that it can only use certain apps - i.e the ones that need to be used and nothing else.

this already happens across the railway in what you can view and use on yoru PC so I fail to see why people cant get their heads around it being any different on a tablet. In fact its probably easier.

The driving grade is a small world.....

 

[ComUtoR]

The Train Simulator game has displayed distance to signals and stations, junction names, gradients, etc, will the display of that sort of info become standard, if not on a tablet, some fixed display?

Yes, driving trains is absolutely just like playing Train Simulator :roll:

I like this "idea" Whilst there really is no need for a Sat Nav as a Drivers route knowledge is paramount. GPS technology (built into trains and tablets) could display route information. Imagine its dark and your sitting at a signal. Can't read the signal plate ? Hit the display and it shows your next signal. Again it is another benefit for Drivers. Fire on your train and your in panic mode ? hit the display to give a precise location to emergency services. Considering TAS is giving Drivers alarms on approach to stations I would say its halfway here already.

The technology may be a good thing, but there needs to be an outbreak of "joined up thinking" between the Union, TOC's and the ORR.

http://www.rssb.co.uk/groups-and-co...rface-committee/driver-advisory-systems-board

That is a link to the membership board for the Driver Advisory Systems group. I 100% agree that joined up thinking it required.

 

[Albatross]

I like this "idea" Whilst there really is no need for a Sat Nav as a Drivers route knowledge is paramount. GPS technology (built into trains and tablets) could display route information. Imagine its dark and your sitting at a signal. Can't read the signal plate ? Hit the display and it shows your next signal. Again it is another benefit for Drivers. Fire on your train and your in panic mode ? hit the display to give a precise location to emergency services. Considering TAS is giving Drivers alarms on approach to stations I would say its halfway here already.




http://www.rssb.co.uk/groups-and-co...rface-committee/driver-advisory-systems-board

That is a link to the membership board for the Driver Advisory Systems group. I 100% agree that joined up thinking it required.

Like that idea myself.

 

[muz379]

Come now you're joining the 'what if' brigade here.

.

Before introducing another bit of kit to the cab though all of the what ifs have to be thought about , this is how risk assessments are done and how safety is maintained .

 

[Clip]

Before introducing another bit of kit to the cab though all of the what ifs have to be thought about , this is how risk assessments are done and how safety is maintained .

Im well aware of how they are done thankyou very much and as has been demonstrated by various posters in this very thread they seem to have already been done for what else is being used in cab.

 

[muz379]

Im well aware of how they are done thankyou very much and as has been demonstrated by various posters in this very thread they seem to have already been done for what else is being used in cab.

Yes but we are talking about varying massively the type of device and what these devices are going to be used for ,

From simply displaying a bit of information to permitting them to be used whilst the train is in motion introduces a whole range of new possibilities . All of which have to be thought about and have agreements reached on .

 

[Clip]

But again, Ive seen nothing to say they are to be used whilst in motion apart from displaying stuff and then other stuff to be used whilst stationary.

The device type doesn't really matter as long as they all perform the same function and same features. The idea of EC wanting iPads is laughable to me when an android device would be cheaper and far more customisable.

 

[muz379]

But again, Ive seen nothing to say they are to be used whilst in motion apart from displaying stuff and then other stuff to be used whilst stationary.

The device type doesn't really matter as long as they all perform the same function and same features. The idea of EC wanting iPads is laughable to me when an android device would be cheaper and far more customisable.

There is however a big between a mitrac and an I pad/android device in a cradle ,

I do agree with the sentiments about the I pad being the more expensive more restricted platform though .

 

[Clip]

There may well be a difference but if you can combine everything into one device that can cover a multitude of actions then why not?

A one-stop bit of kit is surely preferable than having to carry around lots of different bits of kit is it not?

I can kind of understand some people being averse to using something new but the railway has to be ever evolving and being stubborn in not wanting to adjust is not understandable.

 

[ComUtoR]

There is however a big between a mitrac and an I pad/android device in a cradle ,

Some functions are blocked whilst on the move but changing screens is not. Traction status needs to be displayed on the move as you need to see the power distribution. Passcoms will show a CCTV stream when pulled. Faults are displayed on the move via alerts (red/yellow) There is a function on the Mitrac (in a 376) that is regularly access whilst on the move and I have never heard of it being an issue or a disciplinary offense.

It is very restricted and I cannot see a tablet being no less restricted. In fact, I see a tablet being more restricted. The Mitrac restrictions can be EASILY circumvented.

 

[notadriver]

Do you mind if I ask are you a driver or fitter ComUtoR? You know a lot about on board train systems [emoji1]

 

[muz379]

There may well be a difference but if you can combine everything into one device that can cover a multitude of actions then why not?

A one-stop bit of kit is surely preferable than having to carry around lots of different bits of kit is it not?

I can kind of understand some people being averse to using something new but the railway has to be ever evolving and being stubborn in not wanting to adjust is not understandable.

Oh you must be mistaken , I am not saying we should not .

Just that it should be risk assessed properly .

 

[Clip]

Well I already alluded to the RA being done on it earlier in the thread.

 

[rdeez]

There is a world of difference between a purpose built, factory fitted, single use screen, and an iPad in a generic cradle, running an app. Incoming Facetime call anyone?

I think we can be fairly certain that the devices can and will be stripped and locked down in a way that there won't be any possibility of using Facetime, Angry Birds, Candy Crush Saga etc etc...

 

[western Champion]

I would say its a positive step. Having a display in the cab is not much different to Mitrac. Distraction can mitigated against by locking out various alerts and function whilst it is docked. It would also provide a easier upgrade path and allow for a more bespoke product for all TOC's and traction.

Sorry to be ignorant but in my twenty six years as a driver I've never come across Mitrac, would anybody care to elaborate please ?

 

[class 9]

Absolutely no reason for them to be in the cabs. Ridiculous risk of distraction.

Freightliner Heavy Haul drivers have them now, they are not to be used when on the move.
They have been introduced primarily to cut down on paperwork.
Rule book, sectional appendix, white pages,pink pages, traction and rolling stock manuals, location method of work statements , company email, etc etc. if you piled them up it would be about 3 feet high!
So I would say there are many reasons for it being in the cab.

 

[Tom B]

London's buses are now fitted with the "iBus" system which contains (gasp!) an electronic device in the cab. If there is a change to the bus diagram (e.g. change of route/stops/destination) I gather that the control room can broadcast this out to affected vehicles. Are there not benefits in having a canonical display of the actual diagram being worked rather than worrying about notices, whether they apply, any changes due to disruption etc (of course I appreciate any system is only as good as the person inputting data to it!).

 

[Nean]

Sorry to be ignorant but in my twenty six years as a driver I've never come across Mitrac, would anybody care to elaborate please ?

By the looks of a google search a power supply controller made by bombarider with IO panel for the driver: http://www.bombardier.com/content/dam/Websites/bombardiercom/supporting-documents/BT/Bombardier-Transportation-MITRAC-3000.pdf

 

[KA4C]

Sorry to be ignorant but in my twenty six years as a driver I've never come across Mitrac, would anybody care to elaborate please ?

Mitrac is the "driver / machine interface unit" ie computer screen (- DMI) fitted to the Electrostars

 

[Minilad]

Sorry to be ignorant but in my twenty six years as a driver I've never come across Mitrac, would anybody care to elaborate please ?

I think it's something along the lines of TMS in a Voyager

 

[ANorthernGuard]

Technology is moving forward at an incredible rate and with environmental considerations being high on a lot of companies agendas I can see Tablets becoming the Norm for a lot of TOC's. Even at Northern we have been issued with S4 minis which is a 1st step in my opinion before tablets are introduced as the apps (in android) are pretty compatible with most android based devices.

 

[tsr]

I think it's something along the lines of TMS in a Voyager

I'm not familiar with TMS on Voyagers, but MITRAC provides an interface for managing train setup, faults and failures, incidents, certain manual aspects of SDO/door release overrides, etc., so I should imagine we are thinking of similar things.

 

[notadriver]

London's buses are now fitted with the "iBus" system which contains (gasp!) an electronic device in the cab. If there is a change to the bus diagram (e.g. change of route/stops/destination) I gather that the control room can broadcast this out to affected vehicles. Are there not benefits in having a canonical display of the actual diagram being worked rather than worrying about notices, whether they apply, any changes due to disruption etc (of course I appreciate any system is only as good as the person inputting data to it!).

You can't compare the fitting of an electronic device in a bus to a train.

 

[E&W Lucas]

I think we can be fairly certain that the devices can and will be stripped and locked down in a way that there won't be any possibility of using Facetime, Angry Birds, Candy Crush Saga etc etc...

Big assumption

 

[GB]

A very big assumption

 

[rdeez]

Well, if I'm wrong, there may be an interesting RAIB report on the horizon...

 

[GB]

...Why?

 

[ComUtoR]

I'm not familiar with TMS on Voyagers, but MITRAC provides an interface for managing train setup, faults and failures, incidents, certain manual aspects of SDO/door release overrides, etc., so I should imagine we are thinking of similar things.

Very much as described here and much more.

It has all the automated announcements, Passcom CCTV, You can individually lock a single door out remotely, Switch off lighting and heating to an individual coach. and you can manually run a LIM (line interference monitor) test. There is a couple of status screens. Door status will show ... and is great when you have problems as you can quickly identify the problem door. As I have mentioned there is a traction status screen where it will show power and braking for each set of motors as well as a visual status check if any are isolated.

If an MCB trips it will relay the coach number and location. BUT the awesome thing (and very underutilized) is that it will also give you a quick note of what to do. It also shows when a plunger has been pressed. Another good "fault" it will relay is when you forget your lights. It will bleep at you and tell you that "rear/head lights incorrect" You can pull up fault history too.

The main screen just shows a clock (I think there is 3 on the screen), next station, OTMR, Doors, Ice mode, regen brake all display their status. It also displays your train length (another good feature) as it displays each coach as a selectable box.

It also has other "hidden" functions but they are back office stuff. So more than just for the Driver.

Mostly it's key on, enter PIS, Drive train.

TMS and DAS I have very little knowledge of but they are also in cab screens where you check it whilst you drive.

Whilst I do agree that a tablet doesn't feel right in a cab. The "distraction" side I just don't see. Based on my experience with Mitrac a Tablet in a cradle is a bit meh.

Tablets do go against all we have been told about "electronic devices" in the cab and I would also like to know how they have got round the rule book. They must have been cleared or they wouldn't be in use. I suspect rule book wording will be amended to be "unauthorized electronic devices"