Using a cancelled Oyster Card

[CuckoosNest]

I hope someone can provide some guidance on my dilemma.

I had been off sick for a few months and obtained a refund on my annual oyster travel card.

When I returned to work I checked the oyster card at the station and it showed a balance of £14.20. I thought this must be the pay as you go balance I had on my annual travel card. I didn't add any further monies to the card. I touched in at the barrier and the barrier opened and went on my journey. When I went to exit as I had to change trains the card didn't work. An inspector said the card had been cancelled and could not verify my story and issued a penalty notice due to "having no valid ticket". Appeal or pay within 21 days.

I checked the oyster card on the ticket machine at that station, it showed the same balance and it showed that I had touched in at my station in the journeys page. There was a record of me touching in at my starting station.

On further investigation on the TFL web page about refunds it says that the oyster card is cancelled once a refund is issued.

Do I have chance of changing their decision via an appeal or should I pay?

Thanks in advance.

 

[causton]

Interesting.

I think what might have happened is...

• You got a refund for the annual ticket on your Oyster card, which TfL would have given you a refund for the ticket, the £14.20 credit and the deposit you paid for the Oyster card (if any).
• As you did not use this card, it did not update anywhere to recognise this happening.
• When you checked your balance at the station, this still does not check with the central system and so the Oyster card still says it has £14.20 on it.
• When you touched it on the barrier, it saw you had credit (and probably still your season ticket!) and so the barriers opened. As this happened, the barriers updated the card with the latest data which would have then immediately removed the credit, ticket and cancelled the Oyster card.
• Therefore when you were checked, all that will come up on the reader is "Card Cancelled" (in my experience using handheld Oyster readers anyway)

(Or the credit might have still been on there and the card may have been accidentally marked as 'cancelled' when they refunded the annual ticket. I have known it be possible to top up 'cancelled' Oysters so clearly it is not 100% foolproof.)

Appealing does not remove the need to pay. Therefore, if it were me, I would pay the £40 (I assume it is) to stop it increasing, then appeal - if the appeal is successful you will get the money back.

As the barriers opened, presumably giving a green light, and the touch in is logged in your journey history, I would definitely appeal. All you would need to put is that as far as you were aware, the card had money on it, and the barriers let you in, if it turns out you didn't have money on the card that is surely Oyster's problem, not yours, in my opinion.

 

[CuckoosNest]

Thank you "causton" for the comments - very helpful.

A couple of observations:

- if I pay the £40 fine, and appeal - can the fine be increased? Or taken further ie court? (read other people's threads)
- i took a picture of the journey history which proves the time the oyster was used at the station, as well as previous journeys - should i send with the appeal?

Thanks again.

 

[furlong]

If the card had genuinely been cancelled before your journey, they should have added it to the blocked list and the gate should not have opened. I think you should certainly appeal, but first phone the helpdesk and try to do your own detective work to work out the actual sequence of events and whether the correct procedures were followed. For the penalty fare to stand on appeal, I expect they would need to produce evidence that you were clearly told the card must be destroyed and not used for any further travel - which will be tricky if it was later accepted for travel by an automatic gate and not showing as blocked when you queried it on a ticket machine!

 

[furlong]

Perhaps there was either a procedural flaw or a software bug on their side here. If your card has a positive balance on it and opens a gate when it should have not done, why should you be penalised?

 

[matt_world2004]

I would photo the journey history and send that with the pf appeal. I thibk the fact that te appeal goes to an indpendent agency doesnt help in this case as they are less likely to understand the intricacies of oyster

 

[gray1404]

I think you have basis for an appeal for the reasons set out above by other members - that if the Oyster was accepted as valid for entry when it shouldn't have been then that is their mess up. Provided they have not told you not to use the Oyster again previously. I would pay off the Penalty Fare now before it increases and further action is action but I would still appeal. If you win the appeal then your £40 will be refunded. Yes, I would enclose a copy of the screen shot showing your Oyster was indeed accepted for travel at the start of your journey and that there was indeed credit on your card.

Now that some time has passed since the journey, can you check your balance and journey history again at the ticket machine and if so what balance is showing now? I am wondering if you have an incomplete journey and if you had a maximum fare deducted from the balance of the card. I am surprised that the member of staff didn't take the card from you if it was showing as cancelled.

Out of interest and I do not want to take this off topic, but can only Revenue Protection staff on LU issue Penalty Fares or can most people manning the gatelines? I just wondered what the standard practice is if someone turns up at one of the many gated tube stations without a ticket.

 

[talltim]

Presumably it is possible to cancel a travel card from a Oyster without cancelling the card itself?

 

[CyrusWuff]

Presumably it is possible to cancel a travel card from a Oyster without cancelling the card itself?

It is, but with LU having closed all of their Ticket Offices it's only an option if the Travelcard was bought from a train company Ticket Office and having them do the refund.

 

[CuckoosNest]

Thanks for all your replies. I have re-read the correspondence with refunding my card and found the following:

"Dear CuckoosNest

Thank you for your email of XXX date and attached medical certificate for a backdated refund of your annual season ticket due to illness.

I can confirm that we would be able to offer a backdated refund calculated from the last usage date of XXX date. However, we would need to cancel the Oyster card annual season ticket. This applies even if you are predicted to recover before the expiry date.

You would need to obtain another Oyster card once you are fit to travel again. I'm sorry if this is inconvenient for you.

In order for us to complete your refund, could you please specify how you would prefer to receive it from one of the three options below."

I have paid the fine today. Thanks again.

 

[PermitToTravel]

Did you get a refund for the credit on the card? If you did I think you should just write this off as the expensive mistake it was

If you didn't, however, then you've properly paid for your journey and ought continue with an appeal

 

[Surreytraveller]

It still isn't clear to me - We've had to cancel your Oystercard Annual Season Ticket. That could mean they've cancelled the Oystercard, the season ticket or both. It isn't explicit.

 

[SussexMan]

"In order for us to complete your refund, could you please specify how you would prefer to receive it from one of the three options below."

Did you specify one of the three options or did you do nothing?

 

[PeterC]

It still isn't clear to me - We've had to cancel your Oystercard Annual Season Ticket. That could mean they've cancelled the Oystercard, the season ticket or both. It isn't explicit.

Taken on its own I agree that that paragraph is unclear but in is qualified in the following paragraph:

You would need to obtain another Oyster card once you are fit to travel again

Even so it would have been better to be more explicit in the previous paragraph and explain that both ticket and card are cancelled in addition to saying that a new card is needed. Belt and braces ....

 

[furlong]

So the notification says nothing about what happens to the PAYG credit and deposit on the card - it seems reasonable to assume it still remains and can be used, and the gate opening and displaying the balance confirms this. If it had already been refunded it should have shown zero and not let you enter. Do call the helpdesk and see if they can find an expert who can work out the precise sequence of events leading to this. Look up how much you were refunded and if there was a note saying how it was calculated and what it included.

 

[island]

I don’t think you have much of a case, pay the £40 and chalk it up to experience. The penalty will double if not paid promptly.

 

[MikeWh]

I have paid the fine today. Thanks again.

I don’t think you have much of a case, pay the £40 and chalk it up to experience. The penalty will double if not paid promptly.

I disagree. You might have to chalk it up to experience, and you've paid so it won't increase, but I think you do have a case for an appeal.

It is not unreasonable to have forgotten the contents of a letter after being I'll. You took the Oystercard and checked the balance at a ticket machine. Then you touched in and the gates opened. To me, that is called validating the card.

If the card has been cancelled it should be on the blacklist and should remain there until the card is recovered. It's not your fault that there is a hole in TfLs system.

I would write along those lines and ask for the penalty back less the single fare for the journey made.

 

[etr221]

Reading the letter from TfL quoted above it is in the conditional (we would need... etc), and would seem to be generic, i.e. not having considered your specific card with PAYG balance: was there another later saying 'we have...' quantifying the refund? What did it say about the PAYG balance? Did it state clearly the status of the card, as distinct from the Season ticket thereon?

Certainly my expectation is that in the OP's situation, only the Season Ticket should have been cancelled, but the card itself remained usable - but would need another ticket or PAYG to be on it before travel.

And I agree with MikeWh and furlong that you should appeal, and have a strong case to do so.

 

[paddington]

Even if the appeal fails, the £14.20 credit should be refunded!

 

[najaB]

Even if the appeal fails, the £14.20 credit should be refunded!

As long as it's not 'phantom credit' I agree.

 

[MikeWh]

Even if the appeal fails, the £14.20 credit should be refunded!

My experience of the Oyster refund process is that the credit is probably false.

 

[furlong]

Well it looks as if the company told the passenger - through the message displayed on the gate - that they had 14.20 credit on that card and the company accepted it on those terms as a valid ticket with which to begin a journey. That represents a pretty high threshold for any prosecution or penalty fare to overcome. ("We unilaterally decided to withdraw your ticket while you were travelling on it, without telling you, and we are now imposing a penalty without first giving you the opportunity to pay your fare by alternative means".)

 

[MikeWh]

I agree, which is why I suggest that an appeal is well worthwhile.

 

[gray1404]

I agree. It is worth making an appeal. Pay it now to stop it going up in price and then appeal within the time limit. You can post your appeal letter here if you like before sending so others can take a look at it for you.

 

[Haywain]

Pay it now to stop it going up in price

Could you occasionally try reading the whole thread before you respond? The OP already said this:

I have paid the fine today. Thanks again.

 

[gray1404]

Yes I was already aware that they had paid it. But I was making the point that personally I would pay then appeal. Most of my post, the bit that you failed to quote, was about appealing.

 

[CuckoosNest]

Hi all

Thanks for all you advice. It has been very helpful.

I’ve paid the fine and thinking whether I should appeal. I have a couple of days left.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My proposed letter:


Dear Sirs


I wish to appeal the penalty fine notice issued to me at Liverpool St on 10 August 2018.

I was on sick leave from work between for about three months during which time I cancelled my annual travel card and was issued a refund.

On my first day back to work using public transport I took my oyster card and scanned it on the ticket machines at Ilford station to check the pay as you go balance as I didn’t need to buy a weekly or monthly travelcard as I was granted a flexible return to work. The scan showed a balance of £14.20. I touched in at the barrier which opened and I went on my journey to work.

At Liverpool St the exit gate wouldn’t let me out displaying 'seek assistance'. I spoke to station staff who scanned the oyster card with their handheld device and said the card was cancelled. I said that I had checked the card at Ilford and informed them of the pay as you balance. I asked them to accompany me to a ticket machine to check the card – they refused my request. They issued me with a penalty fine notice.

I was let out of the gate by the station staff and I proceeded to a ticket machine to check the card again. It showed a balance of £14.20 and the most important information was the journey history – it showed that I had touched in at Ilford at 9.15am that morning. See attached screen shot.

Please reverse the issued penalty fine notice.

Kind regards


Cuckoos Nest

 

[MikeWh]

It's good. You should change "penalty fine" to "penalty fare" in all cases. The bit "on sick leave from work between for about three months" doesn't really make sense, perhaps remove "between".

Otherwise I'd definitely run with that.

 

[some bloke]

I can't immediately think what the plural of Madam is, but I'd be tempted to change "Dear Sirs" to something more inclusive!

 

[randyrippley]

So if I've read this correctly, it looks as if the embedded season ticket should have been cancelled, but instead they cancelled the physical card?