Using Visa Debit Cards On Train

[dave87016]

Yesterday I travelled from Blackburn to Leeds before the booking office opened the guard came round I asked for a return to Leeds and the usual procedure took place however it declined my card, other people used their cards on the same journey without a problem , this is not the first time it has happened but yet when I got to my destination there was no problem using my card to pay for my fare does anyone know why this happens? it has happened two or three times now doesnt seem to work on trains ( at times) but will work at booking office on arrival at destination

 

[First class]

Not all VISA cards are valid methods of payment on the railway.

Those marked "for electronic use only" will not work, so that may be one reason. On-board ticket machines do not have an online data-link, those at the station usually do.

 

[sonic2009]

It's your Bank.

It's got an Offline Transaction Ban On itself by the Sounds of it. Meaning that it won't work unless connected to a phoneline which Avantix Machines aren't. Normally the Bank's put them on Young People's Cards.

 

[dave87016]

Ah right thanks for that I have used them on trains many a time sometimes they get accepted and sometimes they dont but I always have the funds and all my fares cost mroe than a fiver

 

[Nevasleep]

So is it possible for the guard to do a manual authorisation by phone?
Or is that for when regular cards have been declined/bank request.

 

[Terrafire]

I've had lots of problems with my HSBC Visa Debit card on trains (but occasionally it works!), but no problems with my Nationwide Debit or Credit card. Got told by the ATW guard today that it was a well-known problem with HSBC Debit cards and their 'aggressive' offline transaction security implementation.

 

[Anvil1984]

So is it possible for the guard to do a manual authorisation by phone?
Or is that for when regular cards have been declined/bank request.

Nope on Northern the Avantix has been programmed to not allow us to swipe once a card has been declined. There are ways around it but if the official policy is not to swipe at all after a decline

 

[BrianTheLion]

Yesterday I travelled from Blackburn to Leeds before the booking office opened the guard came round I asked for a return to Leeds and the usual procedure took place however it declined my card, other people used their cards on the same journey without a problem , this is not the first time it has happened but yet when I got to my destination there was no problem using my card to pay for my fare does anyone know why this happens? it has happened two or three times now doesnt seem to work on trains ( at times) but will work at booking office on arrival at destination

Next time you get a receipt when you use your card see if it has an Application Identifier number on it (Usually stated as AID) - this will identify what type of Visa Debit card you have. I'm not sure if the AID is stated on all receipts but I know that Asda/Tesco certainly include them. I assume the majority of major chains would include this information.

If the number is A0000000031010 then it should be classed as a full Visa debit card, with both online and offline authorisation. If it does state this on the receipt then I'd query with your bank why it won't work on the train.

If the number is A0000000032010 then the card is basically the equivalent of a rebranded Visa Electron card which would normally be online or electronic use only. Word of caution with this particular type of card, not all banks state electronic use only on these cards. My father banks with the Co-op and his card looks like a normal Visa Debit card, but still identifies as a rebranded Electron card.

 

[Flamingo]

So is it possible for the guard to do a manual authorisation by phone?
Or is that for when regular cards have been declined/bank request.

It takes about five minutes and depends on a good mobile phone signal. Not always feasible.

 

[Yew]

Mine always confuses me, I've used it on the train before, but it doesn't seem to work any more :/. Maybe it's because I've got a credit card from my bank? So they disabled the offline stuff on the debit card?

I got chucked off at Newark castle a few months ago, the first time it didn't work

 

[pemma]

Re: dave87010 If you account does not have an overdraft facility then it will be a card which only allows you to make transactions if sufficient funds are confirmed as being in your account i.e. no offline transactions.

Also even if offline transactions are permitted there is usually a limit to how many offline transactions can be made. You can't for instance do an offline transaction of £500 and another of £700 later on. I would think that just putting your card in to an ATM and doing a balance check should allow you to do more offline transactions again if you're reached your limit but I'm not sure on that.

 

[dave87016]

Always make sure I have plenty of funds when trying to use my HSBC Visa Debit card on the train, works fine at stations after being declined on board the train. but sometimes will work on the train !! annoys me when it doesnt work though makes me look like I am trying to deceive them, last night a woman had the same problem and the guard asked her to get off at the next station, and she was clearly distressed and very upset

 

[Oswyntail]

....I got chucked off at Newark castle a few months ago, the first time it didn't work

So what is the proper procedure a passenger should ask to be followed if this happens, or whenever a card is declined?
They are not trying not to pay the fare, and have a method of payment that does not work because of the technology

 

[Flamingo]

Proper procedure is a UFN to the next manned station (for the anytime fare), then allow them to de-train and go to the booking office to buy a ticket for the remainder of their journey, catching the next service.

Obviously, the de-facto approach will depend on a number of factors, not least of which is did they come from a station that had a booking office or TVM.

 

[Yew]

Surely of you are giving a ufn, you may as well do it to their destination station?

 

[headshot119]

My card always gets declined on the train, I ring to bank to ask them why and they claim that the machine must be damaged or my card is damaged. :roll:
I then asked why it declines when I try it in the Chip & Pin machine in work when that's gone offline. Again he repeats the machine or card must be faulty.

 

[island]

Surely of you are giving a ufn, you may as well do it to their destination station?

Then you'll get complaints that the passenger was charged the anytime fare instead of the walkup fare!

If you have a Visa debit card (not a Visa Electron card; these are not acceptable payment for train tickets) and it's not working offline, you should ask your bank why it has issued you an online-only card, and if you don't get a satisfactory answer, request another one, or move bank.

 

[rishtonlad]

I have had problems with both my visa debit and credit cards on Northern, even with enough funds in, but have gone through ok the following time.

 

[Flamingo]

Surely of you are giving a ufn, you may as well do it to their destination station?

Only in exceptional circumstances. If they have got on somewhere that had a ticket office / TVM, the chances are they knew the card would be declined and were hoping for a free journey, and verifying addresses on a UFN is a difficult task. I'd reckon over one in three I ring up to verify the address of either are not registered at that address or have somehow managed to give me an incorrect postcode / house number (by mistake, naturally). I'll only issue UFN's if there is no alternative. The booking office at the station I bounce them off at has procedures in place to give tickets to penniless travellers with a greater guarantee of the railway receiving payment (which, after all, is the name of the game)>

As I said, you assess the situation, I had one last week, only a small fare, but I just KNEW the card was dodgy, sure enough, when I rang for authorisation it was declined.

I had another guy last week who hands me the card saying "You have to type the numbers in", as soon as I put it into the chip&pin it came up declined before he had even done his number! His companion then asked for "a written ticket", which I declined to do. But as we were still on the platform (we were booked 10 minutes wait), so I told them to get off the train and "suggested" they went to the bank machine if there was plenty of money in the account as he said, we'd be there another 8 minutes. Funnily enough, they never came back.

 

[Oswyntail]

... ...a greater guarantee of the railway receiving payment (which, after all, is the name of the game)....

Oh dear, and there was I thinking that rail companies might have been in the business of getting passengers from a to b. Too often it seems the default assumption is that all passengers are rip-off merchants so treat them accordingly. Dumping them off the train at the next manned station is hardly likely to improve things (though may be technically correct) given the potential for utterly ruined journeys (would delay payments come into play?)

 

[Flamingo]

Oh dear, and there was I thinking that rail companies might have been in the business of getting passengers from a to b. Too often it seems the default assumption is that all passengers are rip-off merchants so treat them accordingly. Dumping them off the train at the next manned station is hardly likely to improve things (though may be technically correct) given the potential for utterly ruined journeys (would delay payments come into play?)

As I said, it depends on the situation, but if the person has got on at somewhere they had the opportunity to buy a ticket, then it is their own fault they are being inconvenienced.

The business of the rail companies is to make a profit, not run a free transport service for people who thinks the world owes them a living. Sorry if this is a bit blunt, but a lot of people can't seem to understand it if it is put in any more circumspect language.

And just to ask, why the hell would you think they would be entitled to any delay payment? :roll:

 

[2Dogbox]

Mine always confuses me, I've used it on the train before, but it doesn't seem to work any more :/. Maybe it's because I've got a credit card from my bank? So they disabled the offline stuff on the debit card?

I got chucked off at Newark castle a few months ago, the first time it didn't work

We're you going towards Lincoln? If so chucking you off is a bit harsh.

Personally what I do in these cases is allow the passenger to travel to Lincoln and phone through to Lincoln to tell barrier staff that a passenger will be getting off and needing to buy a ticket from the machines that are online at the destination. Same would be true for any barriered station. We can usually tell who the 'dodgers' are and are free to use our discretion. You must have had a miserable guard/ATE.

 

[Oswyntail]

...
The business of the rail companies is to make a profit, not run a free transport service for people who thinks the world owes them a living. Sorry if this is a bit blunt, but a lot of people can't seem to understand it if it is put in any more circumspect language.

But this was not what was being asked about. Someone, with a generally accepted means of payment (a VISA Debit card) having started his journey at an unmanned station, attempts to pay his fare at the first opportunity - and gets turfed off at the next station for his pains because the TOC procedures cannot cope properly. The business of the TOC is to provide a service for rail passengers - the TOC hopes the end result will be profit, but they would still be carrying out the business if they made a loss. The attitude that "The business of the rail companies is to make a profit" is so totally and utterly wrong as to explain a lot of why the general public fail to appreciate the TOCs.

...And just to ask, why the hell would you think they would be entitled to any delay payment? :roll:

Because the delay to their journey was caused not by themselves but by the failure of the TOCs procedures - not having in place a robust procedure to cope with the situation where an electronic card is declined for whatever reason.

 

[rappy]

Then you'll get complaints that the passenger was charged the anytime fare instead of the walkup fare!

If you have a Visa debit card (not a Visa Electron card; these are not acceptable payment for train tickets) and it's not working offline, you should ask your bank why it has issued you an online-only card, and if you don't get a satisfactory answer, request another one, or move bank.

I use Visa Electron all the time for train tickets and never have a problem online, not sure about over the phone though.

 

[dvboy]

island means the chip and pin machine on the train being "online" or "offline" - certain cards don't allow offline transactions - this is where the transaction is always authorised below a certain amount without connecting to the bank at the time, and the transaction details are usually downloaded to the bank overnight.

It has nothing to do with buying tickets from websites.

 

[Flamingo]

But this was not what was being asked about. Someone, with a generally accepted means of payment (a VISA Debit card) having started his journey at an unmanned station, attempts to pay his fare at the first opportunity - and gets turfed off at the next station for his pains because the TOC procedures cannot cope properly. The business of the TOC is to provide a service for rail passengers - the TOC hopes the end result will be profit, but they would still be carrying out the business if they made a loss. The attitude that "The business of the rail companies is to make a profit" is so totally and utterly wrong as to explain a lot of why the general public fail to appreciate the TOCs.

Because the delay to their journey was caused not by themselves but by the failure of the TOCs procedures - not having in place a robust procedure to cope with the situation where an electronic card is declined for whatever reason.

Sorry, I didn't see where the OP had been thrown off the train, they were allowed proceed to their destination according to them, what I said was that a UFN would not have been issued for the whole distance if they had an opportunity to buy before boarding.

 

[Oswyntail]

Sorry, I didn't see where the OP had been thrown off the train, they were allowed proceed to their destination according to them, what I said was that a UFN would not have been issued for the whole distance if they had an opportunity to buy before boarding.

This was the question:

So what is the proper procedure a passenger should ask to be followed if this happens, or whenever a card is declined?
They are not trying not to pay the fare, and have a method of payment that does not work because of the technology

This was the answer

Proper procedure is a UFN to the next manned station (for the anytime fare), then allow them to de-train and go to the booking office to buy a ticket for the remainder of their journey, catching the next service.

Obviously, the de-facto approach will depend on a number of factors, not least of which is did they come from a station that had a booking office or TVM.

I do like "allow them to de-train"!

 

[Flamingo]

As far as I'm aware, the only thing we are obliged to accept is cash money. Maybe one of the legal eagles can clarify.

It is not the railway refusing to accept a method of payment, it is the BANK refusing to authorise it. the restrictions on the card are placed there by the bank, and apply to any off-line transactions, be they on-train, Tesco pay-at-pump petrol, or any shop where the phone-line is down.

If we do proceed with the transaction without it being authorised (the infamous "can you swipe it"), then I believe that the bank can refuse to pay, and charge the TOC with their admin fees etc, AND still sting the customer for the money!

This is something that the banks have forced on us, not something the TOC's wish to happen.

 

[island]

I use Visa Electron all the time for train tickets and never have a problem online, not sure about over the phone though.

Visa Electron is not an officially-accepted payment method for railway tickets. Some, but not all, TOCs accept it on their websites and at their permanent ticket offices nonetheless.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

As far as I'm aware, the only thing we are obliged to accept is cash money. Maybe one of the legal eagles can clarify.

Not a legal eagle, and most definitely not getting into the definition of legal tender (otherwise you would only be able to buy most tickets in Scotland with £1 and £2 coins), but as I understand it, all franchise specifications say that TOCs must accept sterling cash (including English, Scottish, and Northern Irish notes), Visa, MasterCard, American Express, JCB, and Diners Club, rail travel vouchers, and warrants.

It is not the railway refusing to accept a method of payment, it is the BANK refusing to authorise it. the restrictions on the card are placed there by the bank, and apply to any off-line transactions, be they on-train, Tesco pay-at-pump petrol, or any shop where the phone-line is down.

Banks can, as mentioned elsewhere, set cards to reject some or all offline transactions. I had an FGW guard remark to me one evening that he had had a stack of people get on at Port Talbot Parkway and one after another tendered prepaid cards, green Lloyds cards, and other disliked cards. But he got on the phone and had most of them authorized by Bristol Parkway.

On a point of order, most pay-at-pump transactions are online. However, the way they work is that the pump tries to preauthorize the price of 50 litres (or other pre-set amount) before charging the actual amount dispensed. This can be a problem if the customer has very little in their account, and is also a problem if Visa Electron is used because the Visa Electron scheme rules don't allow preauths.

If we do proceed with the transaction without it being authorised (the infamous "can you swipe it"), then I believe that the bank can refuse to pay, and charge the TOC with their admin fees etc, AND still sting the customer for the money!

That is correct (google chargeback 4871): if a merchant either swipes a chipped card or tries a card again once it's been declined, the bank can refuse to pay the merchant.

This is something that the banks have forced on us, not something the TOC's wish to happen.

Quite true, although the TOCs could get around it by upgrading the rather ageing tech.

 

[Flamingo]

Thanks for that. One point, (rather than quote the whole message) I believe we don't take Diners Club any more (We had a memo to that effect a while ago).

TOC's arn't keen on new technology, as apart from the cost of the kit, a lot of TOC's have to pay staff if new technology is introduced (not FGW any more). We (FGW) had new chip&pin machines about 2 years ago, and the Avantex machines are about 5 years with us.